Dominent Eye Quiz for All You AZ'ers

[JoeW]

Without thinking about it my accuracy went up when I started to do the same type of thing with the object ball. The best way I found to aim the object ball is to think in terms of pushing the OB from behind the OB down a line of travel to the pocket. I see a line from the back of the OB through the OB to the front of the OB and then to the pocket. I try to see the OB move down this line before bending down to shoot. This too is a three point aiming approach though I did not think of it that way before. I am going to play around with that idea now as a three point aim for the OB line of travel. Hmmm

I do the same thing Shooting Arts does on long difficult shots. That is, I try to see the extended line through the OB to the rail. This too helps on some shots.

 

[Dead Crab]

With all the interest in this subject, I find it hard to believe that "Answers to a Pool Player's Prayers" isn't a better seller. It really lays out the problems encountered with head/eye position in pool.

States the problems better than offering solutions, but they are there if you look for them.

 

[JoeW]

I think I figured it out. Your eyes converge on a point. They do not see down a line at these short (2 – 8’) distances. Selecting multiple points on the path to the target allows the player to establish a line on which the cue ball will roll.

Then it is a matter of stroke.

 

[genomachino]

Many players do many things to accidently get the eyes lined up right.

I do not know if this is what Gene was talking about but here is what I found as shown below.

A dress maker’s pencil was used to draw the line to the object ball. A second line was drawn from the object ball to the pocket. The cue stick was lined up and placed on a piece of chalk. Captions precede the photo to make it easier to see what I found.


This Photo shows what I see with both eyes over the stick. I am right eye dominant so the stick is a little to the left. The red dots on the cue ball are vertical and lined up with the shot line. It is interesting to note that my eyes appear to be at an off angle. Of course with a camera there is no binocular vision so the picture is a little off. The site line looks straight to me.

This is what I see with my left eye when I close my right eye.

This is what I see with my right eye when I close my left eye.

After playing with these different images as seen by my eyes (not the camera) it is somewhat disconcerting because I now know that I am not looking down the line. Both eyes are “off” the center line. I went back to one eyed (rifle shooting style) and found that while I used this for a few years I no longer like the feel of it. When playing around with the confusing eye problems my brain seems to reconcile the disparate images.

I found something new (to me). If I check my aim line half way to the object ball my aiming ability increased to where I was not missing any balls. In the next photo a dress maker’s pencil is used as an arrow to show where I check the aim line during the stroke.

I don’t know why checking the midpoint of the aim line improves my ability to aim, I just know it works for me. I suspect that the parallax problem that comes with binocular vision is offset by taking two estimates of the line to the cue ball. And this results in an aim line in which one can be more confident. Now I wonder how many good players use something like this when aiming.

Another definition of the “middle” is halfway to the contact point. Try it, you too may find that it helps you get on that line.

OK all the flamers can tell me what an idiot I am. But note that at least I try new things before I start telling eveyone that it can't possibly work.

Hi there Joe,

I have found in my studies and my experiences with different players that many players do different things to help them shoot and alot of these things help them accidently get the eyes in the best position.

You have discovered something that helps you I see. Now you just have to try and help some players with it and see if it helps them also. If it does you have a winner.

That's what I have done with Perfect Aim. I show them how to get the eyes in the correct position and take all the guess work out of it. There's enough to guess about with pool the way it is.

Anyway ,
I like what you did. great job. Have a great day Geno............

 

[pdcue]

That's the wrong question. The right question is: "why is sighting over a cue stick different from sighting along a rifle barrel?"

pj
chgo

Do you know anyone who sights ALONG a rifle barrel?

Dale<who strongly suspects it was the smart twin who decided to put
rifle scopes on TOP of rifle barrels instead of on their side>

 

[JoeW]

I think That Neils Feijen uses a rifle sight. I have also seen Earl Strickland and others (in the early 90s) use a rifle sight) so it is used at times.

The photos in the previous posts with the dress maker’s pencil used to mark the lines shows one of the reasons why a rifle sight is not the “best” sight. You can see that one is shooting at the contact point but is also determining the off angle line to the pocket for the OB. There are two sight lines and we need binocular vision to see both lines. I think that this is a typical shot.

I use a rifle sight for some length of table shots that are very thin and I am only aiming for the contact point. However, I do not use the rifle sight as much anymore because I have learned to determine the center line and the edge line for the cue ball and this is a better approach in my thinking. On a length of table shot I am using two lines and convergence over distance requires the use of both eyes.

With regard to PJ's question notice that we have line convergence from the vertical and the horizontal planes. When shooting a rifle vertical convergence is not as much of a problem. Snooker players minimize vertical convergence by having their chin on the cue stick and this is obviusly one way to address the problem though it reduces a fluid stroke.

 

[genomachino]

Biggest problem with aiming.

I think That Neils Feijen uses a rifle sight. I have also seen Earl Strickland and others (in the early 90s) use a rifle sight) so it is used at times.

The photos in the previous posts with the dress maker’s pencil used to mark the lines shows one of the reasons why a rifle sight is not the “best” sight. You can see that one is shooting at the contact point but is also determining the off angle line to the pocket for the OB. There are two sight lines and we need binocular vision to see both lines. I think that this is a typical shot.

I use a rifle sight for some length of table shots that are very thin and I am only aiming for the contact point. However, I do not use the rifle sight as much anymore because I have learned to determine the center line and the edge line for the cue ball and this is a better approach in my thinking. On a length of table shot I am using two lines and convergence over distance requires the use of both eyes.

With regard to PJ's question notice that we have line convergence from the vertical and the horizontal planes. When shooting a rifle vertical convergence is not as much of a problem. Snooker players minimize vertical convergence by having their chin on the cue stick and this is obviusly one way to address the problem though it reduces a fluid stroke.

Hi there Joe,

You have just identified the biggest problem with aiming. The other biggest problem is the player thenselves connot tell even which eye or how their aiming. They just do it. This spells disaster especially when you get in a tough situation and have nothing to double check yourself. If your just not feeling it you just in big trouble on that peticular shot.

Got to go Treasure Island tourny here in Red Wing Minn

Have a great day Geno............

 

[Patrick Johnson]

The right question is: "why is sighting over a cue stick different from sighting along a rifle barrel?"

pj
chgo

Dale:
Do you know anyone who sights ALONG a rifle barrel?

Don't you think semantic games are a waste of time?

"Along" in this context (obviously, I thought) means with your eye aligned on a single one-dimensional line with the target and whatever you're trying to point at it - you know, like aiming a rifle's sights or a rifle scope's lenses (and unlike aiming a cue stick and ball with your eyes at least several inches above that line). Ask your smart twin what I mean.

pj
chgo

P.S. The definition of "along" has nothing to do with whether we mean along the top or along the side.

 

[Siz]

With all the interest in this subject, I find it hard to believe that "Answers to a Pool Player's Prayers" isn't a better seller. It really lays out the problems encountered with head/eye position in pool.

States the problems better than offering solutions, but they are there if you look for them.

I got this, but never managed to get very far (I did not find it an easy read). But I think that it also covers head tilt, which is a problem that I have (/had?). I will have to have another go at it.

 

[Dead Crab]

I got this, but never managed to get very far (I did not find it an easy read). But I think that it also covers head tilt, which is a problem that I have (/had?). I will have to have another go at it.

It is roughly written and the terminology and diagrams a bit hard to follow, but I think there are some good points that it brings out:

1. Dominant eye and nose-centered alignments are associated with distance-dependent visual perception problems due to variation in the contrubution of dominant and non-dominant eye images. If you are going to use these methods of binocular sighting, you are going to have to learn by (considerable) experience how to compensate your aim at varying CB-OB distances.

2. Methods of sighting that are not as succeptable to the problems caused by binocular vision are:

a) Pure eye (monocular) aiming, where one eye, directly over the stick is used for aiming and the other eye is closed or non-functioning. (Think Neils Freijen).

b) What Kranicki calls (unfortunately) "rifle" aiming. This is where the head is rotated to bring one eye over the cue, and the other eye does not really contribute to establishing aim. Look at pictures of Ralf Souquet, as this is what he is obviously doing. This is basically monocular aiming, with depth perception.

He describes the use of facial landmarks to ensure that head position is correct, reproducible, and that head tilt is avoided.

He also suggests "Two eye parallel aim" as a solution, and if there is a difference between this and "Perfect Aim", I don't see it.

Kranicki needed a better editing job, and needed to make a good video to explain his concepts, but overall I don't think he missed much. Unfortunately, I think a lot of people don't make it through his book.

 

[pdcue]

Don't you think semantic games are a waste of time?

"Along" in this context (obviously, I thought) means with your eye aligned on a single one-dimensional line with the target and whatever you're trying to point at it - you know, like aiming a rifle's sights or a rifle scope's lenses (and unlike aiming a cue stick and ball with your eyes at least several inches above that line). Ask your smart twin what I mean.

pj
chgo

P.S. The definition of "along" has nothing to do with whether we mean along the top or along the side.

You obviously don't even begin to grasp the basic point of
this thread<what's new?>. After all, there have only been 114
posts concerning where the eye(s) should be in relation
to the cue shaft - perhaps you'll catch on after another 100

I am shocked to see the point of the question about front and rear sights
escaped you - again.

While you're at it, you might try to find some person smart enough to explain
to you the difference between 'aiming' and 'sighting'.

Dale

 

[pdcue]

It is roughly written and the terminology and diagrams a bit hard to follow, but I think there are some good points that it brings out:

1. Dominant eye and nose-centered alignments are associated with distance-dependent visual perception problems due to variation in the contrubution of dominant and non-dominant eye images. If you are going to use these methods of binocular sighting, you are going to have to learn by (considerable) experience how to compensate your aim at varying CB-OB distances.

2. Methods of sighting that are not as succeptable to the problems caused by binocular vision are:

a) Pure eye (monocular) aiming, where one eye, directly over the stick is used for aiming and the other eye is closed or non-functioning. (Think Neils Freijen).

b) What Kranicki calls (unfortunately) "rifle" aiming. This is where the head is rotated to bring one eye over the cue, and the other eye does not really contribute to establishing aim. Look at pictures of Ralf Souquet, as this is what he is obviously doing. This is basically monocular aiming, with depth perception.

He describes the use of facial landmarks to ensure that head position is correct, reproducible, and that head tilt is avoided.

He also suggests "Two eye parallel aim" as a solution, and if there is a difference between this and "Perfect Aim", I don't see it.

Kranicki needed a better editing job, and needed to make a good video to explain his concepts, but overall I don't think he missed much. Unfortunately, I think a lot of people don't make it through his book.

You have provided an excellent summation of the essential points
of sighting.

I had never even heard of this book before.

Could you please provide some expansion on using facial landmarks.

Back when I was working on sighting/aiming/alignment I tried
a few things that sure seemed good "on paper" but were detrimental
in practice.

Dale<who is always impressed by some one who uses 'ensure'>

 

[Dead Crab]

************
Could you please provide some expansion on using facial landmarks.
*************

Basically, he recommends lining up two or three points on a vertical (saggital) plane of the face to eliminate unwanted head tilt.

Example: Someone who wants to position center of head directly over cue would align both chin and point of nose over cue, as using just the chin as a landmark could be done with substantial head tilt.

Someone shooting like Ralf might use their canine teeth aligned with the cue, particular point on the jawbone, ect.

 

[woody_968]

Great posts Dead Crab, I tried to give you some rep but I have to spread it around a bit more.

 

[genomachino]

This is just my opinion but.............

************
Could you please provide some expansion on using facial landmarks.
*************

Basically, he recommends lining up two or three points on a vertical (saggital) plane of the face to eliminate unwanted head tilt.

Example: Someone who wants to position center of head directly over cue would align both chin and point of nose over cue, as using just the chin as a landmark could be done with substantial head tilt.

Someone shooting like Ralf might use their canine teeth aligned with the cue, particular point on the jawbone, ect.

Hi there Dead Crab,

From what I have found when I have found someone with a head tilt of twist, trying to change this is usually more trouble than solution.
The tilt or twist of the head can actually enhance the aim by making the middle smaller. Even though this is a small thing it can help.

You can realistically compare this to a baseball player at the plate. When you are standing sideways and looking at the batter you don't have your head turned all the way so your face is turned all the way flush towards the pitcher. In fact pretty much everyone has their head positioned so it appears they are kind of peeking with the eye that is closest to the pitcher. They are looking with both eyes even though one is closer and one is a little farther away.

Some experts claim that it is an advantage to be opposite eye dominent because the dominent eye is actually closer to the pitcher and gets the info quicker than if the other eye was dominent because it is farther away.

Do this for yourself and you will be able to see that head tilt or twist has very little to do with how you see the shot.
Look at an object or at the tv and have your head facing perfectly. It looks pretty good. Now turn your head to the right a little and then do it alot. It still looks good. Think about it? Common sense and seeing this little example for yourself should tell you that your head tilted does not effect the way you see the image unless you almost get upside down which would be kind of hard.

The eyes are amazing tools. They adapt to many things. This is not one of the problems with aiming but from what I have seen with many lessons is better off left alone. Especially when the physical limitations won't allow the head to be straight. You can wreck a guys game if he really takes to heart that his head has to be straight.

This is where I go back to the middle. The more the head is tilted the smaller this middle is. I really don't know if this helps with the aiming but it definitely doesn't hurt unless it could be extreme where you are almost lying down on the table but it does make the middle smaller.

In this middle there is only one spot on every shot that is perfect. By making this middle smaller it could be an advantage because the smaller the middle the less you could be off on the shot.

But when everything considered, if your eyes are only 1/8 of an inch off from this perfect spot the shot is not being aimed as good as it possibly could be. We need to have the aim as perfect as possible because there are so many other thing other than aiming that can effect the outcome of the shot.

Bottom line though, if you don't have it aimed perfect nothing will work. Because after the bad aim everything else that your are trying to do just snowballs into a bid disaster on that peticular shot.

If you have the eyes off and it doesn't look right it probably has no chance right from the start to go. Now add something not quite right with the stance. Guess what? Your eyes tell you where to set your stance. Now lets put a little glitch in the stroke. Now lets add a little english to the ball. Add some squirt, a little deflection, a little jumping up because the shot really didn't look right from the start and it's amazing that sometimes this shot will go anyway. Almost a miracle.

It all starts with the aim and the eyes. The eyes are the starting point. This is what sets up the shot ,the shape, the stance, the everything.

Understanding this middle is a vital part of Perfect Aim. This will help you find your dominent eye when it seems like you don't have one, it is very important in knowing where to position the head and eyes on every shot. The dominent eye tells you where this perfect spot is in this middle because it runs the whole show as far as aiming a pool shot.

The reason some players aim so bad is because they are way off as far as having the eyes in the right spot of this middle. Alot of the better players just have trouble on certain shots as far as being in the right spot of the middle. On a scale from 3 to 10 as far as aiming ability it would directly cooralate with how far they are off this spot and on how many shots they are off on.


Many players are in the wrong spot on the same shot all the time and continue to be in the wrong spot and miss that peticular shot almost all the time because they don't have the ability to identify the problem so therefor that makes it impossible to correct.

Anyone that wants to sincerely improve their game needs to learn Perfect Aim. Not just buy one and look at it and stick it in a drawer. Or watch it once or twice and write a mock review telling the world how much they don't understand it.

You need to sincerely want to learn and try to apply it to your game. You need to get on the table and dig a little bit and try to see what happens when you see what you can see if you know what to look for.

If Perfect Aim was so easy to understand somebody would have been teaching it before myself. Many people over the years have learned certain parts to this puzzle but they are just parts. What good is a puzzle unless you have every piece. Even if you are missing a couple of pieces you can still see the picture that the puzzle is trying to portray.

This is why I offer the service to everyone that has purchased Perfect Aim and make my personal cell phone number available so they can ask me questions personally about Perfect Aim. I know that everyone will not just get it right away. In fact my personal lesson can last anywhere from an hour to 4 hours. There are just a few players that need a little more TLC brfore it clicks but once it clicks they got it.

So please call 715-563-8712.

I know this got a little off the topic of the middle but I hope if anyone that does need help will call. Usually it is just a very simple thing that makes the light go on and your on your way.

Thanks for your input, Have a great day Geno..............

 

[genomachino]

Answer to the middle Quiz will come on Wednesday....

I think That Neils Feijen uses a rifle sight. I have also seen Earl Strickland and others (in the early 90s) use a rifle sight) so it is used at times.

The photos in the previous posts with the dress maker’s pencil used to mark the lines shows one of the reasons why a rifle sight is not the “best” sight. You can see that one is shooting at the contact point but is also determining the off angle line to the pocket for the OB. There are two sight lines and we need binocular vision to see both lines. I think that this is a typical shot.

I use a rifle sight for some length of table shots that are very thin and I am only aiming for the contact point. However, I do not use the rifle sight as much anymore because I have learned to determine the center line and the edge line for the cue ball and this is a better approach in my thinking. On a length of table shot I am using two lines and convergence over distance requires the use of both eyes.

With regard to PJ's question notice that we have line convergence from the vertical and the horizontal planes. When shooting a rifle vertical convergence is not as much of a problem. Snooker players minimize vertical convergence by having their chin on the cue stick and this is obviusly one way to address the problem though it reduces a fluid stroke.

Hi there JoeW,

I appreciate your participation in my quiz. I am going to post the answer wed. You are very knowledgable and have done a great job explaining your answer. And you are right. The players that gets down the lowest he can on the cue gets the eyes in the more perfect position but many players cannot do this because of physical limitations.

By identifying this middle it can help the average player alot because it will explain why he misses when it still looks like he should not. It will explain why the best players in the world seem to do everything right but on a certain shot they all of a sudden seem to lay an egg.

As far as I know, and I'm sure Dr Dave will come up with something, he can usually find something somewhere that is simular but this has never been identified especially the way I will. In a language that is simple, the same as I explain it on the Perfect Aim video.

On the video I don't go into great detail but try to keep it simple. With a whole bunch of charts and lengthy explainations I would lose 70% of the players in 5 minutes.

This middle is the secret as to why one player aims so good and the next one aims so bad and all the different levels inbetween.

Some teachers out there will take this and run with this and try to help others everywhere. Then there will be others that will say it's been there all along. Nothing new. If i didn't know this how can it work or be right.


But no matter how easy something is there will always be a few that have trouble understanding the answer. I want to encourage questions if there are any. This is looking at it in a whole different way.

Thanks JoeW. Have a great day..Geno...........

 

[JoeW]

Thanks Geno. I am looking forward to your post on this topic.

 

[dr_dave]

Gene,

We are still looking forward to your "simple answer." I don't know why you are implying I have tried or will try to make this complicated. On the contrary, I think it is you who is trying to over-hype this (while continuing your seemingly endless marketing campaign ... which is starting to get "old," IMO).

Isn't the "middle" just the place your head needs to be to see a shot right? And can't somebody figure out this head position just by lining up a straight-in shot and moving the head until the shot looks right? Then they know where the "middle" is. No "charts or lengthy explanations" are required for that.

Respectfully,
Dave

I am going to post the answer wed. You are very knowledgable and have done a great job explaining your answer. And you are right. The players that gets down the lowest he can on the cue gets the eyes in the more perfect position but many players cannot do this because of physical limitations.

By identifying this middle it can help the average player alot because it will explain why he misses when it still looks like he should not. It will explain why the best players in the world seem to do everything right but on a certain shot they all of a sudden seem to lay an egg.

As far as I know, and I'm sure Dr Dave will come up with something, he can usually find something somewhere that is simular but this has never been identified especially the way I will. In a language that is simple, the same as I explain it on the Perfect Aim video.

On the video I don't go into great detail but try to keep it simple. With a whole bunch of charts and lengthy explainations I would lose 70% of the players in 5 minutes.

This middle is the secret as to why one player aims so good and the next one aims so bad and all the different levels inbetween.

Some teachers out there will take this and run with this and try to help others everywhere. Then there will be others that will say it's been there all along. Nothing new. If i didn't know this how can it work or be right.


But no matter how easy something is there will always be a few that have trouble understanding the answer. I want to encourage questions if there are any. This is looking at it in a whole different way.

 

[genomachino]

You should know? I showed you in Colorado.

Gene,

We are still looking forward to your "simple answer." I don't know why you are implying I have tried or will try to make this complicated. On the contrary, I think it is you who is trying to over-hype this (while continuing your seemingly endless marketing campaign ... which is starting to get "old," IMO).

Isn't the "middle" just the place your head needs to be to see a shot right? And can't somebody figure out this head position just by lining up a straight-in shot and moving the head until the shot looks right? Then they know where the "middle" is. No "charts or lengthy explanations" are required for that.

Respectfully,
Dave

Hi there Dave,

When we were at Dave's house in Colorado I went over this. You were there but i didn't dwell on this issue. You will remember once I explain it.
This is the biggest problem with most players aiming. Because they are somewhere in this middle with their aim. Just not in the right place. It looks OK to shoot but many times it is not OK.

It's not so important to know where this whole middle is but it is real important to know where your eyes need to be in this middle. There is only one spot to have the eyes. And the reason that everyones spot may vary is because of the different degrees of dominence.

This is , as you know why we work so hard to find the dominent eye. It has to be found. And yes, regardless what anyone says. We all have a dominent eye. Just some are hard to identify and find.

The middle is alot larger than one spot. Just a hint?

Got to go. Have 3 lessons today up in minneapolis.

Have a great day Geno........:grin:

 

[Dead Crab]

*******************
Isn't the "middle" just the place your head needs to be to see a shot right? And can't somebody figure out this head position just by lining up a straight-in shot and moving the head until the shot looks right? Then they know where the "middle" is. No "charts or lengthy explanations" are required for that.

Respectfully,
Dave
**************************

Doctor, you need to hit the books on this one.