More elbow dropping nonsense
- Thread starter SpiderWebComm
- Start date
Actualy, I have posted it on here before. SDE on here can attest to it. He didn't see it, but he sure heard about it when he went to the poolroom. I did it exactly one week before my 50th birthday, 5 1/2 years ago. My opponent went nuts, and told me to do it again! I promptly told him , "no, I only do that one once every 50 years." Granted, it was a once in a lifetime fluke. But, I got to do the fluke! That's one thing I do have (I think) on anyone in the Hall of Fame.(if not the only thing
) It being a fluke, there of course was no video. I wish there was! (it was on a 9' table too!) Of course, the only ball that didn't fall was the 9. It moved down and to the right about 4", and the cb stopped almost straight in on it. My opponent wouldn't let me shoot the 9 in. ( I was glad, I didn't want to dog it thinking about the break!)
Neil is right, I did did hear about him breaking and only leaving only a short straight in shot on the 9 ball. Yes he made 8 out of 9 on the break and I heard it from his opponent the same day that it happened. And for what it's worth, I believe it happened.
Steve
edited to add that I do not know if he used a pendulum stroke. :winknudge:
Last edited:
Does anyone here use the piston stroke?
Hmmm
Originally Posted by Masayoshi
"QUOTE: Allison is a big underdog against even the 2nd tier of male pros. Her main weakness is lack of a power stroke (a product of having no elbow drop? possibly)."
WOW, I used an example of a pro (allision fisher) who has a steady elbow because that is how she learned and then you diss her? Surely you are kidding that if her elbow dropped she could play better. She is the best woman player of all time. Yeah, she can't hang with the men players, but no woman can right now, elbow drop or not, but they can't in any sport except bowling to the best of my knowledge!! Hopefully, one day it will happen, and Jamin seems like a pretty good one to give the guys a run for their money, SOMEDAY !! She is pretty fearless. Not sure if she has elbow drop or not, and don't really care. Bottom line, if it works for you great, and if pendulum works for you great. Why do we care which is best?? I guy on my team stands almost straight up just as he impacts the ball with wicked body english, and swings his cue over his shoulder after each shot.... he shoots striaght and is comfortable with it, though it is pretty horrible to watch every week but I don't want to screw with him NOT because he might get better, but because of his "I'm use to this" attitude, I'm sure he would get worse if he changed. So, we just laught and enjoy the show and duck a lot because he is a freakin Samaurai with that cue in his hand when he comes flying over his shoulder at full speed !!
Originally Posted by Masayoshi
"QUOTE: Allison is a big underdog against even the 2nd tier of male pros. Her main weakness is lack of a power stroke (a product of having no elbow drop? possibly)."
WOW, I used an example of a pro (allision fisher) who has a steady elbow because that is how she learned and then you diss her? Surely you are kidding that if her elbow dropped she could play better. She is the best woman player of all time. Yeah, she can't hang with the men players, but no woman can right now, elbow drop or not, but they can't in any sport except bowling to the best of my knowledge!! Hopefully, one day it will happen, and Jamin seems like a pretty good one to give the guys a run for their money, SOMEDAY !! She is pretty fearless. Not sure if she has elbow drop or not, and don't really care. Bottom line, if it works for you great, and if pendulum works for you great. Why do we care which is best?? I guy on my team stands almost straight up just as he impacts the ball with wicked body english, and swings his cue over his shoulder after each shot.... he shoots striaght and is comfortable with it, though it is pretty horrible to watch every week but I don't want to screw with him NOT because he might get better, but because of his "I'm use to this" attitude, I'm sure he would get worse if he changed. So, we just laught and enjoy the show and duck a lot because he is a freakin Samaurai with that cue in his hand when he comes flying over his shoulder at full speed !!
Last edited:
1st. lol
This thread might go down in AZ history as the most viewed thread and I don't want to miss out.
This thread might go down in AZ history as the most viewed thread and I don't want to miss out.
I agree with Neil - great post.
I disagree, or at least remain skeptical that elbow dropping gives you any extra power at all. I would love to see someone prove this (???Dr. Dave???). Power in pool is from speed; not from muscular strength. The elbow drop just adds a vector of downward movement to the motion instead of all forward; in principle this should REDUCE potential speed and power, not increase it. Please refer me to the evidence that this can in any way increase the power of a stroke. I smell an urban myth.
P.S. - I'm a bit bored as well.
I disagree, or at least remain skeptical that elbow dropping gives you any extra power at all. I would love to see someone prove this (???Dr. Dave???). Power in pool is from speed; not from muscular strength. The elbow drop just adds a vector of downward movement to the motion instead of all forward; in principle this should REDUCE potential speed and power, not increase it. Please refer me to the evidence that this can in any way increase the power of a stroke. I smell an urban myth.
P.S. - I'm a bit bored as well.
This is an odd idea. Let me ask, would it be fair to say that the bicep can be contracted at the same speed whether or not the upper arm is moving? In other words, you are making it sound like an either/or situation, rather than an additive effect. Seems to me (logically and from personal experience) that the bicep contracting at max speed while the upper arm *also* moves yields a greater hand speed overall. Are there any breakers out there who can break over say 28 mph with stationary elbow? I would be shocked if so. Honestly, I'd love to see someone hit 25mph with a stationary elbow. Not saying its impossible, just unlikely and something I've never seen.
Thoughts welcome,
KMRUNOUT
hmm...I wouldn't say impossible. However, I think we are talking about bullet type speeds at which this might be possible ha ha.
Then your initial statement will remain hyperbole.
Willie, take a closer look. You haven't considered all the variables, and ought to review the meaning of "vector". Does the elbow drop *only* add a "downward vector", or is there more going on than that?
Think it over a bit.
KMRUNOUT
Neil,
I take that back...you did go on to explain yourself, although I also did not hear you mention a single example of "misinformation".
Just trying to be clear,
KMRUNOUT
see that's where the cheese starts to bind.....
a shoulder and an elbow are two entirely different mechanisms.
a shoulder is a ball in socket joint.... it can create a nearly infinite number of positions comfortably....
the shoulder is the reason MLB pichers can throw a curveball... it can pivot to anyplace you want it to go...
it can pivot smoothly through nearly any axis... the human shoulder is a remarkable piece of biological engineering..
in some people with natural athletic ability it can do even more....
but most of us don't have the micro muscular ability to control such a complex mechanism..
so we back away from the ball and socket approach... and we just learn that one variable ...one place to sit... and work on hitting that one spot over and over... most of the time we can get pretty close...
I would rather rely on the elbow hinge,,,, perfect linear movement... the elbow only moves about ONE axis... you can't even force it do anything else without breaking a bone..
sorry but that's the definition reliable....when something can't do anything else..
shoulder/ neck/ lats/back .... create unnecessary variables... can they be overcome....yea sometimes...
but the easier route is... well EASIER.... you can pat yourself on the back for climbing over the mountain for a year... or you can take the tunnel and get there quicker.
pendulum = bicep
elbow drop = bicep, shoulder, lats, neck, ribs, wrist, fingers..hips,,
add a pivot and create even more variables...
hey I'm glad some of you guys like to challenge yourselves...
it's not about getting better at pool...
it's about getting better at pool as slowly as possible while taking the most difficult route...
some of us want to climb the most difficult face of the mountain and simply survive...
the rest of us want the fastest way to the top... less variables.. less things to go wrong... less things to worry about..
I got enough to worry about ..without changing a simple motion .. into a convoluted mess .
.simply because pool is not a big enough challenge as it is???/ I want to make it harder than it has to be???
yea ... good luck with that guys
I posted this earlier, but will do so once again since you asked the question.
The elbow drop is not about introducing any muscles or moving parts that increase power, rather it's about facilitating a proper follow through so that you can finish your stroke.
So often I read posts stating that since the cue only contacts the ball for 1/10000 (or whatever it is) of second, the follow through is not as important.
This is completely untrue, In order to stop at or just after contact the cue has to be slowing down before contact. Continuing your stroke past the contact point ensures that this deceleration occurs after you've struck cue ball. It has nothing to do with pushing the cb, or directing the path of it.
It's all about timing your stroke so that you contact the cue ball at or close to peak velocity. Ever wonder why certain players generate so much pace with so little effort? It's that they time their stroke so well. Check out some of Ronnie O'Sullivan's matches and watch how much spin he generates with so little effort. If I try the same shot while trying to mimick the speed of his stroke, I don't get anywhere close to his position.
Shane Van Boening, Earl Strickland and Steve Mizerak come to mind as players who can send the cue ball a million rails just by touching it.
For me personally, the pendulum stroke hinders my follow through. It didn't noticably bother my game when I played pool exclusively, but when I switched to snooker 1.5 years ago it was quite obvious that I needed to make some changes in order to move the cue ball around. Not just to generate more speed, but to do so with less effort, which leads to more accuracy. I've noticed similar problems with a lot of players who don't finish their stroke.
For what its worth, I have in past emailed Del Hill (who is one of the most respected snooker coaches) about this very issue. He does advocate an elbow drop as part of the follow through.
I didn't diss her at all you just took it as a diss because you are being overly defensive. If wanted to diss her I would have said something to the effect of "What? Allison sucks, that weak ass pendulum stroke couldn't draw the rock if her cue had a crayon at the end of it". I merely stated the fallacy of using her as an example of a pro that uses a pendulum stroke. Indeed she is a "pro", but that pro status comes with a footnote because she would need to take up another profession (or improve immensely) if she suddenly grew a penis.
Furthermore why are you bringing gender into this discussion? We are talking about pro as a skill level here. A skill level that is beyond any well known pendulum stroker as far as I know.
We are debating on whether or not an elbow drop is a good thing. This is about progress and acquiring knowledge, we want to figure out if there is indeed a "better way" to stroke. Saying "lets not talk about it" "why should anyone care which is best" is honestly backwards and underachieving.
If a good logical argument + evidence showed that pendulum stroking has a clear advantage over elbow dropping, many, including myself, might make the switch. So far I have not seen any argument or evidence that shows an advantage for pendulum stroking. The evidence for a stroke with an elbow drop is overwhelming.
I think if people other than instructors who benefit from telling people to change their styles endorsed the pendulum stroke, it might give it more credence. I don't think anybody would want to take another lesson from an instructor that said "Everything looks good, go hit a million balls".
EDIT: Actually, after watching Allison on youtube, even she seems to have a slight elbow drop.
Last edited:
The downward vector is irrelevant as the cue is not moving downward, only the arm (unless you are doing it wrong). Not to mention, any downward motion should happen after contact anyways. The elbow drop on the other hand allows your follow through to continue in the direction the cue was going pre-contact as opposed to imparting other forces on the cue such as an upward motion that a pendulum stroke would give it (downward at the tip).
Stroke-Master to practice your piston stroke:
http://jandssafeguard.com/PoolStuff/StrokeMasterDemo.MPG
The tone generator (Stroke-Alyzer) is controlled by accelerometers, warning you if you twist your wrist or swoop the cue.
http://jandssafeguard.com/PoolStuff/StrokeMasterDemo.MPG
The tone generator (Stroke-Alyzer) is controlled by accelerometers, warning you if you twist your wrist or swoop the cue.
Careful, Cameron. You may be shaking up the world with this heresy.
Del Hill?? hmmph! What does he know? Thanks,
JoeyA
Still skeptical. I've seen Larry Nevel, Mark Wilson, George Breedlove, and Marvin Anders generate monstrous speed with no perceptible elbow drop. I do not think it is "required" to generate speed; is it a "game enhancement" feature for helping follow through for some as Number Six suggests - maybe....but I was only addressing the power issue.
I have studied this from a biomechanical standpoint (I am an M.D.); and discussed it at length with a leading orthopedic surgeon - neither of us can see any way that speed of stroke will be increased by an elbow drop. My sympathy to those who believe it strongly - but I'm open to some proof that will change what seems biomechanically obvious (opinions do not count - a valuable concept for which we must wholeheartedly thank Dr. Dave for introducing to a resistant pool public).
Perhaps because so many have always played with an elbow drop; they have the definite (and proper) perception that they can't generate as much power with no drop - had they spent the same thousands of hours during their development with no drop; they might properly feel that the drop hinders their power. Maybe, as in the movie Meatballs, "IT JUST DOESN'T MATTER, IT JUST DOESN'T MATTER."
I have studied this from a biomechanical standpoint (I am an M.D.); and discussed it at length with a leading orthopedic surgeon - neither of us can see any way that speed of stroke will be increased by an elbow drop. My sympathy to those who believe it strongly - but I'm open to some proof that will change what seems biomechanically obvious (opinions do not count - a valuable concept for which we must wholeheartedly thank Dr. Dave for introducing to a resistant pool public).
Perhaps because so many have always played with an elbow drop; they have the definite (and proper) perception that they can't generate as much power with no drop - had they spent the same thousands of hours during their development with no drop; they might properly feel that the drop hinders their power. Maybe, as in the movie Meatballs, "IT JUST DOESN'T MATTER, IT JUST DOESN'T MATTER."
Last edited:
You have our instructors who are all about the pendulum as being the most repeatable way to hit a ball; yet, you have the U.K.'s top snooker coach teaching the elbow drop (you have to be repeatable in snooker too, no?).
Just like the other's, I'd love to hear a debate between two knowledgeable guys. If someone can get ahold of Dell Hill, I'll sponsor a webcast between he and one or two of our guys (maybe Scott and Randy).
I'd love to sweat a friendly intellectual debate on whether or not to follow-through with your elbow. I can prob stream it to about 50 azb people or so, live.
Dave
Just like the other's, I'd love to hear a debate between two knowledgeable guys. If someone can get ahold of Dell Hill, I'll sponsor a webcast between he and one or two of our guys (maybe Scott and Randy).
I'd love to sweat a friendly intellectual debate on whether or not to follow-through with your elbow. I can prob stream it to about 50 azb people or so, live.
Dave