More elbow dropping nonsense

[SpiderWebComm]

Folks:

A couple of things about this list:

1. I don't think Mika should even be included on this list, precisely because his stroke is so unique and personal. Mika has what's called a "locomotive stroke," in that the whole arm is in motion, almost continuously, in a circular/elliptical motion just like the wheel pushrods on an old steam locomotive. His is not an issue of whether he drops the elbow, but rather what his whole arm is doing throughout the stroke. It's not like he starts out with what looks like a pendulum stroke and then later drops his elbow during delivery of the cue -- which, correct me if I'm wrong, is the main item under contention in this thread?

2. I don't think it'd be fair to scrutinize every single video of a pro playing, to find just one instance where he/she dropped his/her elbow, and then go "AHA!! So-and-so 'is' an elbow dropper!" I'm not saying that's what's going on with the "yes/no" answers next to each pro's name in the list, but I just want to warn folks not to make this mistake. I think anyone/everyone, at one point or another every so many racks, drops his/her elbow. Heck, even *I* drop my elbow on rare occasions, and not during the type of shot one would expect (e.g. power draw shots). Nope, I tend to do this on very SOFT shots, where I'm lagging the cue ball to its destination. I guess it stems from relaxing the arm to the point where I can "feel" the motion of the cue best, to properly judge just the minimal amount of power needed to lag the cue ball to its destination. The trick to this type of categorization, is what does his/her elbow do during the 99% of the time he/she is at the table? IMHO, of course.

Just my $0.02 that I picked up off the floor.
-Sean

Well, it's either pendulum/pinned elbow or "other" (i.e. dropping/raising). All of these pros shoot with a dynamic elbow/shoulder. Mika sending his arm through the shot is a drop, imo.

 

[sfleinen]

I'll def be there. I usually hang in the TAR booth so try to find me (if nothing else, I just wanna meet ya!). Beer is on me!

Like I said, I shoot with a pinned elbow for over 85% of my shots - so I'm not knocking your technique (I'd be knocking myself like an idiot if I did).

I'll sweat some of your matches and try to pull you through-
Dave

I'd greatly look forward to that, Dave, and I'll certainly stop by the TAR booth, just like I did last year. Would def appreciate sweating my matches. I'll be a "no-name" there for sure, so I don't expect many people to be watching, at least until I get a few match wins under my belt (which I humbly hope to do).

Look forward to a nice pitcher of brew-ski!
-Sean

 

[SUPERSTAR]

I will have to disagree about Mika.

The ONLY reason his stroke "looks" unique, is because when he grips his cue, he is more forward on the handle then other players, so he had less pendulum going into the stroke, and more follow through/drop. But that doesn't mean he doesn't drop. It just means that he has less backswing before he strokes then not.

 

[Russ Chewning]

So assuming that the majority of world class players are doing it, how can anyone argue against it or when teaching, discouraging someone from doing it?

If elbow dropping is what it takes to be a champion...

1. Governing body politics. (It's what the BCA instructor program "approves" of.)

2. Financial incentive. (Combined with #1 above, it is what they must teach to make a living, so they have to profess a genuine belief in the concept.)

Shawt Bus Russ

 

[sfleinen]

I will have to disagree about Mika.

The ONLY reason his stroke "looks" unique, is because when he grips his cue, he is more forward on the handle then other players, so he had less pendulum going into the stroke, and more follow through/drop. But that doesn't mean he doesn't drop. It just means that he has less backswing before he strokes then not.

Sup:

But that is PRECISELY what creates a locomotive stroke -- gripping the cue more forward than normal, which creates the continuous motion of the arm, and the elliptical motion. The YouTube video that Dave included was actually very old; Mika's stroke has become much more elliptical through the years.

Of course he drops -- because he's sending his whole arm through the stroke. But if you watch, Mika also drops during his warm-up/practice strokes as well. So Mika's delivery is just the "expected version" (expected outcome) of his practice strokes. I thought the issue being discussed was whether the stroke looked normal during warm-up, and then the elbow drop "appeared out of thin air" (as an unexpected surprise) during cue delivery?

P.S.: Forgive me for interjecting late into this thread; I thought for sure this thread was going to melt down, and I was watching it from afar, waiting for the mushroom cloud to appear. (Kudos to everyone, btw, for not letting that happen as usually happens in these types of threads -- there's been some great dialog going on in this one!)

-Sean

 

[SpiderWebComm]

1. Governing body politics. (It's what the BCA instructor program "approves" of.)

2. Financial incentive. (Combined with #1 above, it is what they must teach to make a living, so they have to profess a genuine belief in the concept.)

Shawt Bus Russ

I guess if no one does it, they have something unique to teach Interesting view, Short Bus.

I wonder why the BCA program is so locked on the true pendulum and not open to teaching "drops" when the top players in the world overwhelmingly drop.

 

[SUPERSTAR]

If Mika were to pull his arm all the way back to get backswing like a lot of pool players, the cue could slip out of his bridge and onto the table. This is why he has less backswing, because his grip position dictates it.
The reason he drops on every shot is because he has already limited his arms range of motion from his elbow, and to compensate, has to drop the elbow to get the same follow through.

Are you suggesting that he is "ellipsing" when he delivers his shot?

 

[dr_dave]

Joe,

I'm not sure I follow your logic here, but thank you for the information. I see elbow-drop during follow through more as a relaxation process rather than a muscle-activation process.

The piston player is propelling the cue stick along a line of travel. This requires muscle guidance and the anticipation of muscle guidance. To make the cue stick act like a piston requires additional work (relative to the pendulum player).

The cue and forearm have momentum after CB contact and they naturally want to continue forward, pulling the upper arm forward and the elbow down as a result.

Is it not true that the piston player is guiding (working) to control the specific direction of the cue stick?

With a pure pendulum stroke, muscles (and the chest, if there is contact) must work more to redirect and slow the momentum.

With a pure pendulum stroke, I also see the upper arm as just part of the stance. Muscles have to work to keep the head and body still during the stroke (especially with more speed). To me the upper arm is just an extension of the body that a pendulum stroker also tries to keep fixed, just like the head and the rest of the body (except the forearm).

The pendulum stroker attempts to pin the elbow and I agree this too is work. The piston stroker is intentionally working to drop the elbow in a specific way to guide the cue stick. This is a different type of work. The same and some added muscles in the bicep, forearm, and wrist extension are used to accomplish the task by the piston stroker. Some additional finger control may also be needed in the piston stroke to assist with keeping the stick on line through and beyond the interrupted pendulum arc.

Seems to me that the pendulum stroker is more likely to allow the stick to move through the natural arc guiding it to stay on the table as the fulcrum changes. Less work is needed as the player only guides the stick until the arc has been completed.

The piston stroke is the specific intent to use additional muscles to move the cue stick down a particular line of travel through the incompleted arc and beyond.

The tightening and loosening of muscles I referred to is the normal antagonistic use of pairs of muscles to accomplish a task by either type of stroke. When one skeletal muscle tightens the opposing muscle relaxes in a coordinated manner.

Joe,

Thanks for the clarifications. Now I get your drift.

Regards,
Dave

 

[sfleinen]

If Mika were to pull his arm all the way back to get backswing like a lot of pool players, the cue could slip out of his bridge and onto the table. This is why he has less backswing, because his grip position dictates it.
The reason he drops on every shot is because he has already limited his arms range of motion from his elbow, and to compensate, has to drop the elbow to get the same follow through.

Are you suggesting that he is "ellipsing" when he delivers his shot?

Sup:

In your very own post, I highlighted the point above I was trying to get at. No, I wasn't trying to suggest that his final delivery was elliptical, and I have no idea how you got that. I was trying to say that Mika's continuous rise and fall of his elbow is a natural by-product of his stroke technique -- which you already suggested could be because of his forward-placed grip hand. Reverting back to my original point about Mika (a third time), I thought this thread was about elbow drop that occurred "out of thin air" when the warm-up / practice strokes looked like it was going to be a pendulum stroke delivery? That's why, in that vein, I thought Mika was a special case.

Also, as a related side note, I know of quite a few players that use a pumping motion of the cue (which Mika's locomotive stroke may be related to) to help them establish that their elbow is "on top" of the cue, at perihelion, and that the stroking motion is straight, with no sideways hooks or crooks in it. Some even use the pumping motion of the cue (and the resulting up and down bobbing of the cue tip) to "paint" a vertical aiming line on the object ball in front of them. While some of us aim at a contact point on the ball, some aim at a vertical line, or segment, of the object ball. The pumping of the cue helps facilitate that the stroke is aligned with this vertical "delivery" line on the object ball. That's the best I can explain it.

Hope this helps clarify,
-Sean

 

[dr_dave]

*bump* to see a list of pros who use a pinned elbow

Do you mean "pinned elbow for the entire stroke" (i.e., a pure pendulum stroke), or might you also mean "pinned elbow before CB contact" (e.g., a "J" stroke, where the elbow is allowed to drop after CB contact)? I think this is an important question. To me, a pure pendulum stroke and a "J" stroke really aren't that different. The amount of elbow drop after CB contact might vary from one player to the next and from one shot to the next, but if the elbow is pinned before CB contact, then I still think of it as a "pinned-elbow pendulum stroke" (with a relaxed follow-through).

Regards,
Dave

 

[SpiderWebComm]

Do you mean "pinned elbow for the entire stroke" (i.e., a pure pendulum stroke), or might you also mean "pinned elbow before CB contact" (e.g., a "J" stroke, where the elbow is allowed to drop after CB contact)? I think this is an important question. To me, a pure pendulum stroke and a "J" stroke really aren't that different. The amount of elbow drop after CB contact might vary from one player to the next and from one shot to the next, but if the elbow is pinned before CB contact, then I still think of it as a "pinned-elbow pendulum stroke" (with a relaxed follow-through).

Regards,
Dave

I don't think any pros (or any real %) drop pre-contact. So, I think we're talking about mechanics of follow-through. I don't think there are any pros who shoot with their elbow pinned (static) during follow-through (all the time).

Like I said, pre-contact--- the droppers look very similar to the pendulum guys outside of the Filipinos (whose elbows sometime raise on the backstroke with a pump action). So, which pros shoot with a still elbow beginning to end?

Dave

 

[Scott Lee]

Dave...This is my last post in this thread. If you really want to know why, stick a crowbar in your wallet and buy a lesson. You'd be surprised what you might learn (if you don't let what you're already SO sure of, get in the way). I'll even refund your money, if you think you didn't learn anything you didn't already know. At least then you have some real information, to answer your own question. One more thing...it is not "BCA politics or doctrine" regarding what we teach. It is our own research and experience that leads us to share it with others.

For the last time...since I said this in the first few pages of this thread already...first, none of us has ever said pros should or should not drop their elbow. Dr. Dave mentioned about timing, which is the big deal. The majority of amateur players simply don't have that professional 'sense' of timing. Second...and I already said this too...you can try to copy what some pros do, or you can figure out something that works for you, based on your body style, learning style, and come up with a process that may (or may not) allow you to develop a more accurate, repeatable, and sustainable stroke. In the end, it's only information and suggestion. Each student has the ability, and right, to choose what works best for them. We don't force anybody to adopt what we're teaching. Most do because they see a potential for improvement, that, in the long run, works well for most who learn it properly, and practice it correctly (for as long as it takes to become a habit).

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

I guess if no one does it, they have something unique to teach Interesting view, Short Bus.

I wonder why the BCA program is so locked on the true pendulum and not open to teaching "drops" when the top players in the world overwhelmingly drop.

 

[SpiderWebComm]

Do you mean "pinned elbow for the entire stroke" (i.e., a pure pendulum stroke), or might you also mean "pinned elbow before CB contact" (e.g., a "J" stroke, where the elbow is allowed to drop after CB contact)? I think this is an important question. To me, a pure pendulum stroke and a "J" stroke really aren't that different. The amount of elbow drop after CB contact might vary from one player to the next and from one shot to the next, but if the elbow is pinned before CB contact, then I still think of it as a "pinned-elbow pendulum stroke" (with a relaxed follow-through).

Regards,
Dave

Nope. That's the point of this thread--- who drops versus bringing their hand to their chest!

 

[SpiderWebComm]

Dave...This is my last post in this thread. If you really want to know why, stick a crowbar in your wallet and buy a lesson. You'd be surprised what you might learn (if you don't let what you're already SO sure of, get in the way). I'll even refund your money, if you think you didn't learn anything you didn't already know. At least then you have some real information, to answer your own question. One more thing...it is not "BCA politics or doctrine" regarding what we teach. It is our own research and experience that leads us to share it with others.

For the last time...since I said this in the first few pages of this thread already...first, none of us has ever said pros should or should not drop their elbow. Dr. Dave mentioned about timing, which is the big deal. The majority of amateur players simply don't have that professional 'sense' of timing. Second...and I already said this too...you can try to copy what some pros do, or you can figure out something that works for you, based on your body style, learning style, and come up with a process that may (or may not) allow you to develop a more accurate, repeatable, and sustainable stroke. In the end, it's only information and suggestion. Each student has the ability, and right, to choose what works best for them. We don't force anybody to adopt what we're teaching. Most do because they see a potential for improvement, that, in the long run, works well for most who learn it properly, and practice it correctly (for as long as it takes to become a habit).

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

I never said the BCA was dictating your curriculum - Short Bus suggested it and I said "interesting." It's not a derogatory comment. When you guys are BCA-Certified instructors, it wouldn't be out of the question that they dictate core curriculum.

I'm a pendulum player for the most part (majority of the time). We're really discussing follow-through in this thread - that's all. I think you're getting a little defensive. My only point in my posts today is that I cannot find a pro who brings their hand to their chest as a "systematic" method of follow-through (so I'm curious why everyone thinks it's easier and more repeatable - it's conjecture, imo).

I wouldn't pay for a pendulum stroke lesson if I'm not convinced it's the move - - and I'm not. I'm totally into getting a lesson from you or Randy in other areas, but I'm careful of what I pay for. Meaning, I'm set on my body position, back foot position, cue alignment and aiming. I think my knowledge of CTE is as good as anyone on planet earth, so I see how to make the ball and align the body. In 14.1, I run over 30 balls often. Therefore, I'm not sure I want to pay for eye-pattern lessons, mother drills, speed drills and how to pin the elbow.

What will get me to a 100 ball run is me getting TIRED of missing in the 40's, 50's and 60's and improving concentration (I'm A.D.D. when it comes to pool). 14.1 ball selection is my biggest weakness right now and I see Hopkins, Joe Tucker and BJ for that. So, I'll crowbar my wallet open for a lesson if I know what I'm paying for. I mean that with the UTMOST respect. My style is different than what you and Randy teach and I wouldn't change it because I make a lot of balls. So what else is there outside of ball selection and pattern play? I ask this with total sincerity. If there's a topic that hits home with me, I'll buy some lessons at the SBE (PM me on some things we can work on).

Please don't get upset or quit posting in this thread!! We're just brainstorming--- we're not knocking (we're just having fun with it, so don't take offense).

I remember Lee Brett was hounded by some guys on here for "promoting" the elbow drop and actually teaching it. Video evidence shows the pros drop versus bringing their hand to their chest systematically (dropping in proportion to stroke speed).

Dave

 

[KMRUNOUT]

Why did he get banned??? It must be driving him nuts!

Patrick got banned? I've never heard him say anything rude or mean. Certainly contentious and argumentative...he seems like a good guy and I enjoy his logic. I hope he returns.

KMRUNOUT

 

[KMRUNOUT]

I think it is important to distinguish when a person drops their elbow. If they don't drop their elbow until after CB contact, it really doesn't matter how much the elbow is dropped, because the CB is already gone. Some people will drop it more on firmer shots; but again, the amount is not important. These people basically have a "pendulum stroke" with a modified follow-through (e.g., a "J" stroke ... "pendulum" before contact, and "piston" after contact). If these people are consistent with the timing of the elbow drop, they can have the benefits of both worlds ... pendulum-stroke tip-contact-point accuracy with a smoother follow-through on firmer shots. I think if people were more clear on when the elbow drops, there would be a lot more agreement in this thread. Many of the video examples show a pendulum stroke into the CB and then different amounts of elbow drop after CB contact. To me, it isn't important if the elbow drops after CB contact, or if the elbow drops different amounts after CB contact. What's important is when the elbow drops, and if the drop occurs consistently before or after CB contact, and/or if the timing changes with shot speed.

Regards,
Dave

Dave,

As I said, I too think it is important when the elbow drops. However, the initial post was about whether the elbow *does* or *does not* drop, not when. I understand the urge to expand the thread beyond what the original poster wanted, particularly in a case like this where there is a significant difference to what the question means. I was just pointing out that before we get that far, it would be interesting to get some solid examples of well known pros who *do* and *do not* drop their elbows. Then we can go into *when*. As of now, there are *NO* examples offered of pros who pin their elbow. Lets try and fix that first.

KMRUNOUT

 

[KMRUNOUT]

The piston stroke is the specific intent to use additional muscles to move the cue stick down a particular line of travel through the incompleted arc and beyond.

The tightening and loosening of muscles I referred to is the normal antagonistic use of pairs of muscles to accomplish a task by either type of stroke. When one skeletal muscle tightens the opposing muscle relaxes in a coordinated manner.

Joe,

Which stroke do you use? Your characterization of the "piston" stroke does not mesh with my experience much. When I set up, I am using my shoulder muscles to support my upper arm in a particular position. When I stroke, I relax those muscles, allowing the elbow to basically fall straight down. My entire arm experiences a release of tension when I stroke. My wrist is just along for the ride. I would say that I use less effort to accomplish the stroke, though I would admit the possibility that this effort is distributed over more muscles.

KMRUNOUT

 

[KMRUNOUT]

I never said the BCA was dictating your curriculum - Short Bus suggested it and I said "interesting." It's not a derogatory comment. When you guys are BCA-Certified instructors, it wouldn't be out of the question that they dictate core curriculum.

I'm a pendulum player for the most part (majority of the time). We're really discussing follow-through in this thread - that's all. I think you're getting a little defensive. My only point in my posts today is that I cannot find a pro who brings their hand to their chest as a "systematic" method of follow-through (so I'm curious why everyone thinks it's easier and more repeatable - it's conjecture, imo).

I wouldn't pay for a pendulum stroke lesson if I'm not convinced it's the move - - and I'm not. I'm totally into getting a lesson from you or Randy in other areas, but I'm careful of what I pay for. Meaning, I'm set on my body position, back foot position, cue alignment and aiming. I think my knowledge of CTE is as good as anyone on planet earth, so I see how to make the ball and align the body. In 14.1, I run over 30 balls often. Therefore, I'm not sure I want to pay for eye-pattern lessons, mother drills, speed drills and how to pin the elbow.

What will get me to a 100 ball run is me getting TIRED of missing in the 40's, 50's and 60's and improving concentration (I'm A.D.D. when it comes to pool). 14.1 ball selection is my biggest weakness right now and I see Hopkins, Joe Tucker and BJ for that. So, I'll crowbar my wallet open for a lesson if I know what I'm paying for. I mean that with the UTMOST respect. My style is different than what you and Randy teach and I wouldn't change it because I make a lot of balls. So what else is there outside of ball selection and pattern play? I ask this with total sincerity. If there's a topic that hits home with me, I'll buy some lessons at the SBE (PM me on some things we can work on).

Please don't get upset or quit posting in this thread!! We're just brainstorming--- we're not knocking (we're just having fun with it, so don't take offense).

I remember Lee Brett was hounded by some guys on here for "promoting" the elbow drop and actually teaching it. Video evidence shows the pros drop versus bringing their hand to their chest systematically (dropping in proportion to stroke speed).

Dave

Well said. I too would like to hear the name of a single known pro who pins their elbow. I am not asking this to try and prove or disprove anything. I just really like pool and want to see something I haven't seen. Seeing at least a single pro doing it this way would lend a great deal of credibility to that style.

I hope someone is able and willing to provide this information.

Thanks,

KMRUNOUT

 

[JoeyInCali]

Well said. I too would like to hear the name of a single known pro who pins their elbow. I am not asking this to try and prove or disprove anything. I just really like pool and want to see something I haven't seen. Seeing at least a single pro doing it this way would lend a great deal of credibility to that style.

I hope someone is able and willing to provide this information.

Thanks,

KMRUNOUT

Tony Robles?

 

[sfleinen]

Let's get definition of "elbow drop" straight; means different things to people

Joe,

Which stroke do you use? Your characterization of the "piston" stroke does not mesh with my experience much. When I set up, I am using my shoulder muscles to support my upper arm in a particular position. When I stroke, I relax those muscles, allowing the elbow to basically fall straight down. My entire arm experiences a release of tension when I stroke. My wrist is just along for the ride. I would say that I use less effort to accomplish the stroke, though I would admit the possibility that this effort is distributed over more muscles.

KMRUNOUT

KMRUNOUT:

I would agree -- let's get our characterizations correct in this thread about what "elbow drop" means, because it seems to mean different things for different people.

For example, many people consider *this* stroke -- the stroke of snooker prodigy Luca Brecel of Belgium -- to be a "true" piston stroke. Notice how his elbow rises and falls with the pulling/pushing of the cue; soft of like a "scissor":

http://youtube.com/watch?v=UgPuJhXnRHY

Another example of what some folks consider a "true" piston stroke, would be that of Xiao Ting Pan ("XT"):

http://youtube.com/watch?v=Mlx_mUycDBw
http://youtube.com/watch?v=OcDH5ujNxM0
http://youtube.com/watch?v=ZZJSa2fxmT8
http://youtube.com/watch?v=ZWDxeyGcNtc
http://youtube.com/watch?v=YgrahA_Acag
http://youtube.com/watch?v=B80BI42TPMk
http://youtube.com/watch?v=Wvp-fKxvJ4I
http://youtube.com/watch?v=qZfGwHNs1cA

You'll notice these two examples, are examples of pros who drop their elbow not only before contact with the cue ball, but do so in their practice/warm-up strokes as well.

I think for the purposes of this thread (unless Dave can correct me if I'm wrong), is whether the elbow drop occurs as a "surprise" -- i.e. practice/warm-up strokes look like a normal pendulum stroke, but cue delivery results in an "unexpected" elbow drop, rather than the pro delivering his/her hand to his/her chest as would be expected in a true pendulum stroke. (Dave, would that be a correct synopsis, or did you have something different in mind -- e.g. the elbow drop occurring at anytime?)

-Sean