You win at life.
Trudeau: Beating a dead horse.
- Thread starter JoeyA
- Start date
You win at life.
Secaucus Fats
Banned
Mike Panozzo, Publisher of Billiards Digest, wrote an article about this very same topic. The article is in the current issue of Billiards Digest. It's worth reading.
The forum would be much less interesting if people literally kept every single exchange civil. I think joey's objection is more the target of the discussion, not the quality of it.
If 10 guys in the mike surber thread say "I hope he gets raped and killed in jail" I don't think joey or anyone else is gonna say "hey, let's keep it classy and not have that kind of talk." Remember when there were those accusations against Alcano? If it had turned out true (afaik it wasn't) then everyone's gonna say similar stuff and nobody's going to complain about it.
We all love pool, but liking and helping pool does NOT get you a pass for anything.
That includes something as mild as public bashing on an internet forum.
I think the only reason there's any defense for the guy at all is because people still wonder to this day what his intentions were when he started the whole thing. Was he looking to cash in on a legit but untapped market, but executed it poorly? Was he looking to scam a few bucks off pool players and never had any intention of making a real go of the IPT? Maybe as some suggest he started with good intentions but chickened out when he realized it was going to fail, grabbing as much money as he could before running off.
Even after reading 210391309123490 posts on the subject I still wonder. Did anyone here personally know the guy and spend time with him? The law and our wallets only really look at the results but I'm curious if he at least went in with decent intentions.
If 10 guys in the mike surber thread say "I hope he gets raped and killed in jail" I don't think joey or anyone else is gonna say "hey, let's keep it classy and not have that kind of talk." Remember when there were those accusations against Alcano? If it had turned out true (afaik it wasn't) then everyone's gonna say similar stuff and nobody's going to complain about it.
We all love pool, but liking and helping pool does NOT get you a pass for anything.
That includes something as mild as public bashing on an internet forum.
I think the only reason there's any defense for the guy at all is because people still wonder to this day what his intentions were when he started the whole thing. Was he looking to cash in on a legit but untapped market, but executed it poorly? Was he looking to scam a few bucks off pool players and never had any intention of making a real go of the IPT? Maybe as some suggest he started with good intentions but chickened out when he realized it was going to fail, grabbing as much money as he could before running off.
Even after reading 210391309123490 posts on the subject I still wonder. Did anyone here personally know the guy and spend time with him? The law and our wallets only really look at the results but I'm curious if he at least went in with decent intentions.
the owners have to set a tone for a forum
I don't know that you are right that it would be less interesting but I think what you actually mean is that it would be less entertaining. I'll agree with that. Now, how does anyone decide which threads are fit to trash and which should be treated seriously? Over and over I see threads that are about things that need discussing that get derailed by a few posters that can be counted on to post bs or attack anyone with a different viewpoint. When it is OK to trash some threads on a forum it is OK to trash all of them.
I have never seen an unmoderated forum that didn't degenerate into total garbage. Just the way it is. Doesn't matter if they are in jr high school or their sixties the ones that want to act like they are in jr high school take over and good posters leave.
I am very interested in the subject matter of some of the threads on this forum but I only look at one in ten of them or less or wait until I am ready for some entertainment. I know the same people will join the threads with the same attacks on anyone that disagrees with them and ultimately the thread will be worthless as anything but entertainment.
I visit some well moderated and civil forums that are substantially bigger than this one and I have seen forums this big disappear when the moderators and owners gave the inmates to keys to the asylum.
Some want a civil place to seriously discuss things. Some are here basically for entertainment. The two groups will always see things differently. I find it sad that some genuinely don't know what "civil" means.
Hu
I don't know that you are right that it would be less interesting but I think what you actually mean is that it would be less entertaining. I'll agree with that. Now, how does anyone decide which threads are fit to trash and which should be treated seriously? Over and over I see threads that are about things that need discussing that get derailed by a few posters that can be counted on to post bs or attack anyone with a different viewpoint. When it is OK to trash some threads on a forum it is OK to trash all of them.
I have never seen an unmoderated forum that didn't degenerate into total garbage. Just the way it is. Doesn't matter if they are in jr high school or their sixties the ones that want to act like they are in jr high school take over and good posters leave.
I am very interested in the subject matter of some of the threads on this forum but I only look at one in ten of them or less or wait until I am ready for some entertainment. I know the same people will join the threads with the same attacks on anyone that disagrees with them and ultimately the thread will be worthless as anything but entertainment.
I visit some well moderated and civil forums that are substantially bigger than this one and I have seen forums this big disappear when the moderators and owners gave the inmates to keys to the asylum.
Some want a civil place to seriously discuss things. Some are here basically for entertainment. The two groups will always see things differently. I find it sad that some genuinely don't know what "civil" means.
Hu
Nice
Hu, you make some fine points, as usual. But back to the original complaint, I don't believe anyone was being less than civil on this thread. If Joey does not want to gloat about the incarceration of a couple of rogues, I got no problem with that in the least. And I really dislike when people talk about others that made "mistakes",,, in example, what KT did or even Tony for that matter were not mistakes, they were calculated endeavors to hurt others, benefit themselves and plain and simple were clearly outside of the laws that the rest of us AZ'ers follow. I don't think any AZ'ers posting in this thread with a little well deserved bashing of a couple of rogues hurts anyone, certainly not pool. Maybe Tony and KT don't like it, not that they are reading this, but them are the breaks of living a life without purpose and meaning. Just because you can play some great 1P don't give you a pass in my book or just because you made a fortune ripping others off but tried to help the game of pool doesn't give you a free pass either, regardless of his motives. The facts are facts, KT is a con artist, and will die a con artist, and when he leaves this world, nobody will miss him accept his accountant and his lawyers. So lets forget about his little foray into the billiards world, and not associate this dispicable human being with OUR game any longer.
Hu, you make some fine points, as usual. But back to the original complaint, I don't believe anyone was being less than civil on this thread. If Joey does not want to gloat about the incarceration of a couple of rogues, I got no problem with that in the least. And I really dislike when people talk about others that made "mistakes",,, in example, what KT did or even Tony for that matter were not mistakes, they were calculated endeavors to hurt others, benefit themselves and plain and simple were clearly outside of the laws that the rest of us AZ'ers follow. I don't think any AZ'ers posting in this thread with a little well deserved bashing of a couple of rogues hurts anyone, certainly not pool. Maybe Tony and KT don't like it, not that they are reading this, but them are the breaks of living a life without purpose and meaning. Just because you can play some great 1P don't give you a pass in my book or just because you made a fortune ripping others off but tried to help the game of pool doesn't give you a free pass either, regardless of his motives. The facts are facts, KT is a con artist, and will die a con artist, and when he leaves this world, nobody will miss him accept his accountant and his lawyers. So lets forget about his little foray into the billiards world, and not associate this dispicable human being with OUR game any longer.
I do agree with what you are saying from their viewpoint
It is the end of a rough few days and I'm not going back to reread now but originally Joey was talking about a lack of civility in other threads of course, not this one. Looking at it as what is right or wrong for tony or trudeau, I agree with what you are saying. They made deliberate choices and I have no sympathy for them. Friends of mine died or were incarcerated for a hell of a lot longer in the sixties and seventies for similar mistakes. I didn't have any sympathy for them either. I think Joey was looking at things from a little different standpoint though, the good of the forum and even the people doing the "bashing". Even though the individual may richly deserve it, it makes the bashers and the forum both look a little smaller when the bashing goes on. Another thing, particularly in tony's case, he will never see any of the bashing. Innocent people that care about him will. I see no reason to cause them pain.
Pool players will still snuggle up to drug dealers when they have money and they are ready to get in bed with another trudeau as soon as he waves a little green. All the bashing in the world isn't going to change that. The bashing doesn't serve any purpose that a simple straightforward announcement of the facts wouldn't serve just as well.
Thanks for a thoughtful and civil reply to my post. I think Joey may be interested in a campaign to raise the level of civility on the forums. You just aided that goal.
Hu
It is the end of a rough few days and I'm not going back to reread now but originally Joey was talking about a lack of civility in other threads of course, not this one. Looking at it as what is right or wrong for tony or trudeau, I agree with what you are saying. They made deliberate choices and I have no sympathy for them. Friends of mine died or were incarcerated for a hell of a lot longer in the sixties and seventies for similar mistakes. I didn't have any sympathy for them either. I think Joey was looking at things from a little different standpoint though, the good of the forum and even the people doing the "bashing". Even though the individual may richly deserve it, it makes the bashers and the forum both look a little smaller when the bashing goes on. Another thing, particularly in tony's case, he will never see any of the bashing. Innocent people that care about him will. I see no reason to cause them pain.
Pool players will still snuggle up to drug dealers when they have money and they are ready to get in bed with another trudeau as soon as he waves a little green. All the bashing in the world isn't going to change that. The bashing doesn't serve any purpose that a simple straightforward announcement of the facts wouldn't serve just as well.
Thanks for a thoughtful and civil reply to my post. I think Joey may be interested in a campaign to raise the level of civility on the forums. You just aided that goal.
Hu
Are you sure your backer never got the money and if he didn't, did he try to get them?
I know many who were in the qualifications, and all of them were paid what was promised in the end.
Hu - have you tried a completely civil forum? I've seen it (well, close enough). It's not just that it lacks in entertainment, it lacks in flavor and topics worthy of debate. People are afraid of stepping on each other's toes and dissenting opinions don't get typed because the guy with the oddball point of view is labelled a troll.
I mean there's nothing uncivil about "I hope Trudeau rots and I'm thrilled he's in jail". It's a strongly held opinion presented without namecalling or caps lock or even offensive content, but somehow it's seen as questionable by a longtime and respected forum member. To accomodate that member would be tough because we can't separate the opinion from the way it's voiced.
If I call KT a scumbag and a mod tells me "let's not have any of that here", the mod is tacitly saying KT's an okay guy. Even if that's not the mod's intention, that's what it will look like. Can't be helped. Better the mod doesn't interfere in the first place except in blatant situations where one guy is just riding another and making it personal (hi patrick! we miss you!)
I mean there's nothing uncivil about "I hope Trudeau rots and I'm thrilled he's in jail". It's a strongly held opinion presented without namecalling or caps lock or even offensive content, but somehow it's seen as questionable by a longtime and respected forum member. To accomodate that member would be tough because we can't separate the opinion from the way it's voiced.
If I call KT a scumbag and a mod tells me "let's not have any of that here", the mod is tacitly saying KT's an okay guy. Even if that's not the mod's intention, that's what it will look like. Can't be helped. Better the mod doesn't interfere in the first place except in blatant situations where one guy is just riding another and making it personal (hi patrick! we miss you!)
I am on a couple forums where it's very civil and entertaining at the same time.
AZ however is a low rent version of the National Enquirer for some people. They come on here with lowbrow humor, make false statements, stir the pot, and sit back and toast marshmallows over the resulting flames.
There are people who have been part of these forums for a dozen years who have made public statements that this is their sport. They have said that it's their entertainment to get people riled up.
Such people are sociopaths and forums which aren't well moderated are like magnets to these types of people.
Now AZ thank goodness has a decent enough amount of moderation to keep most of them in check.
I have never seen an unmoderated forum yet that I consider to be entertaining where people are trying to discuss something serious. There is however one such forum where the people are engaged in baiting the Nigerian scammers which is unmoderated and as such has some pretty rough content but which I find to be HIGHLY entertaining.
I don't find fights between members here to be entertaining. I don't find the constant restating of falsehoods which have to be addressed over and over to be entertaining. I don't find the stalking behavior of some members against other members to be entertaining.
I find great posts like the link to Charlie Ursitti's website entertaining, match play-by-plays, updates about new and interesting products, discussion of how to play, discussion of methods and techniques (without the insults), those are some of the things I find entertaining.
When I see a thread filled with one poster calling another one an idiot then I am turned off by it and skip which is PROBABLY what most people do or should do when I am the one doing the namecalling.
I find that very few people can argue without getting personal. It's gotten a little better this past year but I still see that when one person is getting the better of the other one with the logical points then out comes the namecalling, personal and racial slurs. That's entertainment but the lowest form in my opinion.
And yes, I know that I am guilty as well.
Only those who WON the regionals Tour Card Qualifiers got their $ 2,000 back.
None of the others who paid to play in a qualifier for a tournament that the IPT knew would never happen, haven't got anything yet.
There's a difference between being glad that someone has been stopped from hurting others and experiencing and expressing joy because that person is experiencing pain.
Finding and expressing joy in the suffering and pain of another just ain't right.... not in any circumstance.
Finding and expressing joy in the suffering and pain of another just ain't right.... not in any circumstance.
Why not, KT did??
Well yes, I have. My brother and I owned and moderated a completely civil political forum for three or four years, I forget how long now. It took a lot of moderating and the people that wanted to be jackasses to each other hated it. At one point the members and owners of two other forums launched an all out gay porn and hacking attack on my forum because they couldn't stand the idea of a decent forum. There was also a bounty for any hacker that could get into my computer and get my personal information, threats on my life, attempts to put me out of business. All because I maintained a civil forum. Civil doesn't mean that you have to be a sissy, I destroyed both of the forums that attacked mine before I was done, while staying civil the whole time!
Due to having a civil forum we were able to engage in deep conversations about race, religion, all the things that are off limits and impossible to talk about on most forums. The people that really wanted to discuss things loved the forum, the people that just wanted to insult those that disagreed with them hated it.
Hu
Did anyone catch the new infomercial?
At least, it's new to me. Saw it this morning.
Recession Cures
And he goes off about how if you have money, you risk losing money, and if you have none, take risks. Talking about buying property for 100 bucks etc etc.
Gimmick is, it's a 30 day free trial (you just pay shipping and handling) and if you want to keep it, you pay, and if you don't, you return it.
I'm guessing that he's gonna make a killing off the shipping and handling, and with that credit card info, is gonna dip into the pockets of people AGAIN, when he is not supposed to and then it becomes a consumer issue where they have to fight to get their money back and have the charges taken off.
And this guy isn't a crook....HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!
At least, it's new to me. Saw it this morning.
Recession Cures
And he goes off about how if you have money, you risk losing money, and if you have none, take risks. Talking about buying property for 100 bucks etc etc.
Gimmick is, it's a 30 day free trial (you just pay shipping and handling) and if you want to keep it, you pay, and if you don't, you return it.
I'm guessing that he's gonna make a killing off the shipping and handling, and with that credit card info, is gonna dip into the pockets of people AGAIN, when he is not supposed to and then it becomes a consumer issue where they have to fight to get their money back and have the charges taken off.
And this guy isn't a crook....HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!
That would depend on the tip, Kamui black will raise welts, while the Moori's simply leave a rash like mark. NEVER use the phenolic tips while beating, you will risk missing the animal alltogether.
ROFLMAO...Guys don't hold back,tell us how you really feel...:grin-square:
Was he any less a crook, or any less known to be one, when pool embraced him?