Skid again... it's static after all?

CreeDo

CreeDo

Fargo Rating 597
Silver Member
I was watching TAR17 and Corey mentioned that they had run a test about the cause of skid (aka "kick" in the snooker world) and determined that it was static electricity.

A few guys on these forums also mentioned the idea but at the time I was skeptical.

One post I read on here says that a physicist in a BBC documentary tested the theory to see if it's either dirty balls OR static. His result was apparently that it was neither, but the poster didn't remember how they disproved static. He did remember that they cleaned the hell out of the balls with ethanol and shot with an unchalked tip to disprove dirt... even with these conditions the ball eventually kicked.

The latest theory was it has something to do with the oils used to create the balls. I guess some property of the (petroleum-based?) plastic resin maybe causes it to get funny patches. Or it 'sweats'? I didn't quite follow.

So was corey talking about the same BBC documentary I wonder? Or something more recent? Either he or the poster were misremembering the conclusions.

Static might explain why some people swear it happens on some types of cloth more than others.
 
skid

CreeDo said:
I was watching TAR17 and Corey mentioned that they had run a test about the cause of skid (aka "kick" in the snooker world) and determined that it was static electricity.

A few guys on these forums also mentioned the idea but at the time I was skeptical.

One post I read on here says that a physicist in a BBC documentary tested the theory to see if it's either dirty balls OR static. His result was apparently that it was neither, but the poster didn't remember how they disproved static. He did remember that they cleaned the hell out of the balls with ethanol and shot with an unchalked tip to disprove dirt... even with these conditions the ball eventually kicked.

The latest theory was it has something to do with the oils used to create the balls. I guess some property of the (petroleum-based?) plastic resin maybe causes it to get funny patches. Or it 'sweats'? I didn't quite follow.

So was corey talking about the same BBC documentary I wonder? Or something more recent? Either he or the poster were misremembering the conclusions.

Static might explain why some people swear it happens on some types of cloth more than others.
Click to expand...

It definitely appears to happen with new cloth more often. I used to take a break from pool when the room I was a regular in would change the cloth. I still hate it. It changes everything about the tables. Bank angles, pocket acceptance. You would think with all the technological advances in everything else, that cloth manufacturers would be able to make a new cloth with already broke in qualities. The skid also appears to happen at a certain speed of contact. Never seen one skid when it was hit like a rocket.
 
Just an observation of 50+ years of playing. I have noticed that the softer you hit the shot and the thinner the cut is where most of skids occur. My thinking is that the ball does not start to roll but slides a little first therefor creating the skid effect. So different balls and different cloth may intensify the slide. So to me it is as simple as severe cut and slow cue ball speed. Every time i am forced to thin cut a ball with a feather stroke i wonder if it will skid.
 
In my experience it's not just a slide, but almost a double kiss phenomenon happening between cb and ob. You can hear it when it happens. Or maybe it's that one of the balls has left the table slightly and that's what I'm hearing. I'd like to see Dr. Dave catch this and analyze it in slo-mo.
 
I don't have any scientific proof but it stands to reason at least for me that a new bed and rail cloth has no chalk all over it and therefore no added friction from the gritty abrasive chalk. Thus its simply more slippery. Add new balls with no scratches which add to the friction and its double slip and slide.

The above comments I suppose explains why pool halls don't need to keep things as clean as with carom games where we need slide for the balls to act properly off a rail. With a non sliding table many shots are simply impossible to make.:angry: The table robs all the spin and shortens the angles. Its much easier to shorten a shot on a long table than lengthen a shot on a short table. This is a battle that will never be won in most pool halls I suppose. :deadhorse::banghead:

I think I'll just have go spray some silicone on my month old cloth. Its starting to shorten up.:poke:
 
You definitely hear a skid, and it does almost sound like a super fast double hit. It's sort of a clack or clud. It's a lot like the sound when you do a fast double hit with the tip, aka a push foul.

That's sharp thinking 9beezy. Maybe one ball is leaving the table and climbing up the other ball for a split second before dropping back to the slate. It also kinda backs up what I and some other people notice... you don't get a skid with a fast sliding cut. It seems to happen when you have a rolling cue ball. And I don't know that I've ever gotten it with backspin on the CB. So... the increased contact is causing the CB to climb up the face of the OB a hair and then immediately drop, creating that double hit sound.

I wish I could comment on different cloths but I haven't noticed the difference in one cloth vs. another. I don't play on a lot of different ones.

I gotta be honest measureman, I've never seen it on a thin cut. I think when a thin cut seems to undercut, it's the regular bit of throw that you get on any cut. It's just that a thin cut has such a small margin for error, that throwing it a hair always makes it look like it missed by a foot. My feeling is that skid seems worst when normal throw seems worst... medium angles between... I dunno... 20 and 50 degrees. I'll try rolling a few thin cuts. Maybe I don't see it cuz I hit thin ones pretty firmly.

Something I know for sure is true... dirtiness and chalk do make a ball throw like crazy. If you rub some chalk directly on a ball and then do a soft shot with heavy throw, it'll get knocked sideways like crazy. So I always felt sure skid was caused by this. But now after hearing the ethanol-cleaned-balls story, I'm not so sure.
 
when a cue ball in motion contacts an object ball wich is in a static position a transfer of energy must take place.(time of transfer will vary on conditions).after transfer the object ball will travel until the energy is depleted.the cue will use its remaining energy until it is depleted.the target paths for both balls are converted at the same moment.dirty balls cling together longer during transfer than clean balls.you have to transfer the energy to the dirt first.same crap goes for the cloth,new old - dirty clean.thats what makes pool fun.never ending changing conditions.

bill
 
This is something I read somewhere a long time ago.....let me see if I can say it correctly.

When you hit the cue ball with your tip it leaves a bit of chalk on the ball. If that bit of chalk is in the right place at the right time, meaning the contact point between the balls, the CB will stick to the ball for a split second...just enough to cause the OB to skid.

Like I said, I read that somewhere. Sounded possible so I've just written it off as that for years.
MULLY
 
vasilios said:
when a cue ball in motion contacts an object ball wich is in a static position a transfer of energy must take place.(time of transfer will vary on conditions).after transfer the object ball will travel until the energy is depleted.the cue will use its remaining energy until it is depleted.the target paths for both balls are converted at the same moment.dirty balls cling together longer during transfer than clean balls.you have to transfer the energy to the dirt first.same crap goes for the cloth,new old - dirty clean.thats what makes pool fun.never ending changing conditions.

bill
Click to expand...

I am in no position to dispute your analysis of the physics but I do disagree on one point: When you catch a skidder it is NOT fun! ;)

CreeDo, perhaps there are multiple causes. But I've got to think that chalk or other gritty dirt is at least one of them. It just makes sense to me intuitively. I can buy in to a big chalk mark on the CB "grabbing" the OB and taking it along for a bit before it releases it. Also (and I don't know the answer to this), can the amount of static electricity created, which I have to believe is fairly small, cause that big a reaction to 2 relatively heavy balls that have momentum?

Does anyone know if static electricity creates a noticeable spark? I've never seen one.

One other thing that may have relevance: I've been playing a long time and way back when I don't seem to recall encountering skidders as much as I do these days. Maybe it's just my fading memory or perhaps changes in cloth, ball material etc. have something to do with it.
 
Last edited:
skid row

There can be several reasons for a skid.I believe static is
one of them.Years ago Jimmy White was getting a lot of
skids in a snooker match.The ref was wearing white nylon
gloves.The head ref gave him his cotton gloves and the
skids stopped.
 
CreeDo said:
... He did remember that they cleaned the hell out of the balls with ethanol and shot with an unchalked tip to disprove dirt... even with these conditions the ball eventually kicked. ... Static might explain why some people swear it happens on some types of cloth more than others.
Click to expand...
The reports I've heard of that test have been really sketchy. I think the cleaning agent was acetone. I think it's really a bad idea to "clean" plastic with something that would probably cause the manufacturer to cry out in pain.

It is easy to demonstrate skids using a little chalk on the balls. It was evidently hard to demonstrate it under the very unnatural conditions of UK test.

I think that actual static charge on the balls is very unlikely to produce enough force -- and certainly no direct sideways force -- to cause skid/kick/cling/bad-contact. If someone does think that static electricity on the balls can cause very large excess friction between the balls, he should present an analysis of how that can happen based on something other than Phlogiston.

A possible explanation that does include static electricity is that under some conditions, partly involving static electricity, chalk is more likely to stick to the cue ball than under other conditions. To see how much chalk is flying around during a shot, see the amazing
Efler/Leitner video -- about 37 seconds in.
 
I follow you, as far as the chalk mark rotating into exactly the wrong place at the wrong time to cause a skid. And in an old post I said the exact same thing... "I can't believe the tiny bit of whatever caused by static electricity could possibly move something as big as a pool ball".

But now we have some fairly sharp players saying stuff that supports the static theory and I have my doubts. Even that bit about earl saying it happens more in cold weather... static electricity gets much worse in the winter. Cold dry air specifically makes it easier to build up a charge.

When the charge actually discharges, it does make a visible spark. Rub a balloon on the carpet and touch something metal (or maybe a nearby pet) in the dark. You'll see it easily. If this is a static thing, maybe we'll be able to see a tiny spark at the moment of impact? But then how would we witness the skid? >_<

We need to drag the science guys in here to settle this. That or maybe someone from the UK can hunt down that BBC clip.
 
CreeDo said:
... But now we have some fairly sharp players saying stuff that supports the static theory ...
Click to expand...
No, I think they only said that such a study existed. I don't think any player has examined the accuracy of the study.
 
Note to self:

If, a year from now, I should want to find this thread again, do a search under "Phlogiston". :thumbup:
 
Last edited:
Creedo, what you added to my observation makes a ton of sense. When you put it with the sound it adds up. Way to expound, Bro!!! 9beezy:grin:
 
I think the claim that static is a cause for cling/skid/kick is a bunch of hooey. I haven't tried to test the effects of static electricity because I know how small the forces involved with static electricity are. They are too miniscule to affect the dynamics of pool balls.

FYI, I have some resources on cling here:


Cling/skid/kick is just excessive throw, usually caused by a chalk smudge at the contact point.

Regards,
Dave

CreeDo said:
I was watching TAR17 and Corey mentioned that they had run a test about the cause of skid (aka "kick" in the snooker world) and determined that it was static electricity.

A few guys on these forums also mentioned the idea but at the time I was skeptical.

One post I read on here says that a physicist in a BBC documentary tested the theory to see if it's either dirty balls OR static. His result was apparently that it was neither, but the poster didn't remember how they disproved static. He did remember that they cleaned the hell out of the balls with ethanol and shot with an unchalked tip to disprove dirt... even with these conditions the ball eventually kicked.

The latest theory was it has something to do with the oils used to create the balls. I guess some property of the (petroleum-based?) plastic resin maybe causes it to get funny patches. Or it 'sweats'? I didn't quite follow.

So was corey talking about the same BBC documentary I wonder? Or something more recent? Either he or the poster were misremembering the conclusions.

Static might explain why some people swear it happens on some types of cloth more than others.
Click to expand...
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top