How many pool halls went under with fresh cloth and equipment?

[CreeDo]

A recent thread got me to thinking... has anyone seen or heard of a pool hall going under despite keeping the equipment up really well?

Let's ignore the obvious cases like the landlord suddenly doubles the rent and drives the guy out. I mean... the owner keeps the equipment up well, but DESPITE this he just doesn't get enough business to stay afloat.

I have seen a few places close and it always seems like they closed with tables that had over 1-year-old cloth and bad rolls. The mindset of the owners seems to be that if they spend money on the equipment and players, they can't stay open, and they must let the equipment slide and accomodate the kids/bangers.

I'm trying to get a feel for whether that's actually true. Obviously location means everything and in some places it'll be true and in others it won't. I'm just honestly wondering if people know of a place that gave a serious last-ditch effort to make the equipment right, then closed anyway.

 

[ForumGhost516]

Two Words -- Comet Billiards probably the best players room on the east coast. So Sad !!

 

[justadub]

We have one closed room here (just an hour and a half north of you, CreeDo, ya ought come up for a visit!) and I believe it's pretty much rent/economy related. Realize, I'm not privy to the details, but the scuttlebutt going around is that the rent on the building is too high. I had heard $10K a month, which would be ridiculous for this part of the world in these times. Again, rumour only, no inside info. I don't believe that the rent was raised any time recently, just that it was too high to begin with, and with the economy and all, it made it difficult for anyone to keep afloat. It has gone through two different owners in the last year, and remains closed currently.

The tables seemed to be in reasonable shape, not anything I would consider to be neglected. I don't have a tremendous swath of experience in visiting pool rooms, but this was well-kept to my eye. One would probably say they had the best tables in our area, all the league tournaments were held there. Table time was expensive, $12-$15 an hour last time I played there on a non-league night. That is just a little higher than the other bigger room in the area, and has better tables than the one still open does. But the room still open is part of a large bowling/gameroom/sportsbar complex, and the whole package is what allows them to charge that kind of table time and get it. The closed room is associated with a cheapy-theater movie complex, but even that doesn't draw like it used to.

I think that if the overhead wasn't so bad, that room could stay open. But that's the problem with renting the place rather than owning the property, I suppose.

 

[JusticeNJ]

Two Words -- Comet Billiards probably the best players room on the east coast. So Sad !!

Indeed. I was talking about this with a former pool room owner last night. RIP Comet.

 

[realkingcobra]

Two Words -- Comet Billiards probably the best players room on the east coast. So Sad !!

I've been to the Comet before, and they didn't go out of business just to close the doors, they closed the doors because they didn't do enough in business to keep the doors open. I've said this before, I'll say it again, pool rooms don't go out of business just because...they go out of business because they're trying to operate in todays econemy...with last years business plan, meaning...if you don't serve food today, if you don't sell alcohol today...along with your table income...then as a pool room owner, you haven't done enough to stay IN business, and the Comet did nothing to stay IN business in todays economy.

Glen

 

[realkingcobra]

Having the experience I've had traveling all over this country, being in and out of pool rooms from coast to coast, as well as bars, you get to see things most will never see. And one thing I've come to know, if a pool rooms income is over 60% from table time alone, then they're going to go out of business sooner or later, and it don't matter how well they maintain their pool tables, because at some point in time, they're going to reach the breaking point in table time to where they start losing customers, and it's at that breaking point, that they no longer have enough income to support the business...and will close the doors. You CAN NOT put all your eggs in one basket, and expect the eggs not to break if you drop it

A good example, is if you took all the slot machines out of all the pool halls in Vegas...there wouldn't be ONE pool hall IN Vegas, because table time alone won't pay the rent

Glen

 

[bobroberts]

I agree in today's economy a room has to offer more then pool.Landlords don't care if they rent or not,most of the large shopping centers are owned by larger corporations who write off the expense as a tax loss and are not worried about their tenants.I know this because I rent 3 different stores.It costs app.35 a sq. ft.plus 18 for cam.which is common area maintenance.This is the largest reason any business goes out. I believe you wind up working your butt off for the landlord who gives you nothing in return but 4 walls and a roof.

 

[realkingcobra]

I agree in today's economy a room has to offer more then pool.Landlords don't care if they rent or not,most of the large shopping centers are owned by larger corporations who write off the expense as a tax loss and are not worried about their tenants.I know this because I rent 3 different stores.It costs app.35 a sq. ft.plus 18 for cam.which is common area maintenance.This is the largest reason any business goes out. I believe you wind up working your butt off for the landlord who gives you nothing in return but 4 walls and a roof.

Think about this for a second, if a room owner is struggling to pay the rent, and even though it's been paid late a few times, it's caught up to date....does anyone really think the landlord is hoping the pool room stays in business?...No, THAT landlord, if smart....is already looking for another renter....because they see the writing on the wall

Glen

 

[realkingcobra]

What Mike Page did right in Fargo, ND...was that he opened a
"Restaurant/Lounge" with pool tables he DIDN'T open a "Pool Hall" with some finger food, and beer He has customers coming in to "eat" food in his restaurant...that don't even care about pool...and THAT'S the difference, very smart move on Mike's part

Glen

 

[bobroberts]

I agree with you Glen but landlords dont care if you make it or not if its rented or not.I know that sounds insane but being in business I know this for a fact.
Now small strip centers are another story,the landlords need them rented,but i mean only a handful of stores in the center.

 

[realkingcobra]

I agree with you Glen but landlords dont care if you make it or not if its rented or not.I know that sounds insane but being in business I know this for a fact.
Now small strip centers are another story,the landlords need them rented,but i mean only a handful of stores in the center.

My ex-landlord up here in Washington State, where I had my warehouse for a long time, until I move out because of being on the road all the time for Diamond, has over 800 properties. As he explained to me, he only needs enough tenets per property to pay the taxes on the location, because that location is mortgaged to pay for the next property development and his income is shielded by the depreciation of that property, and the only time he sells a property is when he has run out the depreciation value.

Still, bottom line is room owners that go out of business, did so because they didn't do enough to stay in business

Glen

 

[cueandcushion]

In St. Louis, a room called Chesterfield Billiards went under despite keeping the tables playing well. The area the room was established experienced a major growth in population and hence the property values. What started out "in the boonies" became 10 years later prime real estate. So your rent goes from $1000 per month up to 5k then 10k. Be the time they left their rent was approaching the 28K mark. Like all pool rooms that go under, rumors swirled about Chesterfield. That the landlord hated pool halls etc. It is just economics. If all your competition is getting 30K a month for 5000 square feet. Why on earth would you charge 10k a month? Chesterfield closed down and searched for a nice building at a reasonable amount. So far to my knowledge they have given up trying to reopen at this point. They were scouting locations 20 miles out of the city trying to find a location and still could not.

Too many of serious pool players want an "Old Fashioned Pool Hall".

One without kids or without a band or jukebox. No video games. Just pool. The only economic model that works in this scenario is a pool fanatic who is rich and doesn't mind losing $200,000 a year every year for the rest of his life on a pool hall. Rent kills most pool halls. If you have 9 foot and 10 foot tables. Its even worse. The economic model that works best in today's market is tiny tables with high mark up drinks and food and some poker machines or something else in the back. If there is a way to have an old fashioned pool hall with perfect tables expertly maintained and hot rack girls and cheap pool... then all the experts need to open one and make me eat my words. I would LOVE to say I am 100% wrong just to learn a better way to make money. Nothing would make me happier than to say. "I'm doing this wrong, I can change this and that and make a ton of money"

Pool doesn't make money. What you're selling is a good time. You are selling memories with friends. You are NOT selling pool. 90% of the people who come in really don't care much for pool. They just want to have fun.

PS. The number one making tables in my room usually (except the heated Billiard Table) are the crappiest tables in my room. Why? Because 7 kids at a time play on them every night. While the good tables have ONE serious player practicing all night or a 2 person One Pocket Match. Our heated billiard table is currently one of our biggest money makers because of the Korean community playing on it every night. Usually with 4 people or more every single time they come in.

 

[measureman]

The room i play in is very old a little shabby but that's how i like them,very old school feel. The walls and carpet are a mess and they may have the worst house cues I've ever seen. Some of the racks are broken and if you can find a decent bridge you better hang on to it. The table cloth is old and has some pin sized holes in it. So you are wondering why i go there. Well it's 10 minutes from my house and you can play from 10 AM to 4PM for $6.00.
It's a family run place and they are very nice people. The food is great and they sell alcohol. There are 2 snooker tables that have a golf game going on all day and they recently got a Billiards table that actually gets some play.
All in all not a bad place if you like that somewhat run down look without a bunch of yuppies running around.

 

[sawtex]

Rent, utilities, insurance, pay role and taxes. Unless you've been there you can't imagine. No way an old fashioned pool hall only can make the nut much less a profit.

 

[realkingcobra]

Rent, utilities, insurance, pay role and taxes. Unless you've been there you can't imagine. No way an old fashioned pool hall only can make the nut much less a profit.

This is why I say pool isn't on the decline that everyone thinks it is...just because some pool halls go out of business. The pool halls that DO go out of business had the writing on the walls...the owners just didn't read the messages And trust me, there's always a new, or reopening pool room some where to take the place of the ones closing down...just not in that area

Glen

 

[coolcue]

We can blame the ecconomy, poorly kept pool halls and evrything else in between. But lets be honest here, the sport is dying because of lack of interest by the present generation and the new one coming up. Without customers there is no income and without income there is no bills being paid. I know of one hall in my area that took out the 2 bar tables and installed ping pong tables. The place has been there for 35 yrs and seems to be holding its own. But the addition of PP tables has to be an indicator.

 

[JB Cases]

We kept the tables pristine. Darts paid the rent though and Alchohol made the money. Table time won't do it. Think about it, you have 1-2 people at a table most of the time, sometimes four using up the space of a small bedroom. Go to an average bar and compare the revenue per square foot.

This is why bar box leagues do well for pool rooms - more people spending money in less space consistently.

I have seen several pool rooms go out of business with perfect equipment.

I haven't yet seen one which had a lot of league activity go out of business.

 

[JB Cases]

We can blame the ecconomy, poorly kept pool halls and evrything else in between. But lets be honest here, the sport is dying because of lack of interest by the present generation and the new one coming up. Without customers there is no income and without income there is no bills being paid. I know of one hall in my area that took out the 2 bar tables and installed ping pong tables. The place has been there for 35 yrs and seems to be holding its own. But the addition of PP tables has to be an indicator.

That's partially right. People tend to forget that booms are followed by declines. The Color of Money sparked interest in playing pool and that continued until the late 90s and for the past ten years pool participation has been steadily declining.

And what has your Billiard Congress of America been up to during that time? Why they have been out trolling other shows trying to sell booth space to people outside the billiard industry instead of doing things to promote interest in playing pool or investing in the billiard industry.

In fact it's quite likely that the guy who just put in the two ping pong tables bought them from a vendor at the BILLIARD Congress of America's Expo.

If it were me running the BCA with a 4 million dollar budget - I would have paid a guy $60,000 a year to pester ESPN, TRAVEL CHANNEL, etc.... to step up and broadcast the league finals every year. Lots of great content there.

I would have paid another person $60,000 a year to go pester the Fortune 500 and sell them on sponsoring a PGA style professional tour for men and women.

I would have paid another person $60,000 a year to travel around the country booking shows for professional players.

I would have made sure that EVERY Boys and Girls club and community center in America had well kept equipment, rule books, AND instructors.

And so on until the whole budget was used up PROMOTING POOL.

So yeah the sport is fading and it's largely due to the sorry way the BCA has wasted the industry's money this past decade not to mention this past two decades.

 

[smoooothstroke]

A recent thread got me to thinking... has anyone seen or heard of a pool hall going under despite keeping the equipment up really well?

Let's ignore the obvious cases like the landlord suddenly doubles the rent and drives the guy out. I mean... the owner keeps the equipment up well, but DESPITE this he just doesn't get enough business to stay afloat.

I have seen a few places close and it always seems like they closed with tables that had over 1-year-old cloth and bad rolls. The mindset of the owners seems to be that if they spend money on the equipment and players, they can't stay open, and they must let the equipment slide and accomodate the kids/bangers.

I'm trying to get a feel for whether that's actually true. Obviously location means everything and in some places it'll be true and in others it won't. I'm just honestly wondering if people know of a place that gave a serious last-ditch effort to make the equipment right, then closed anyway.

A pool hall that is struggling to survive will not have the $$ to keep the tables up.My guess is typically a place that closes down will have worn cloth.

 

[CocoboloCowboy]

That's partially right. People tend to forget that booms are followed by declines. The Color of Money sparked interest in playing pool and that continued until the late 90s and for the past ten years pool participation has been steadily declining.

And what has your Billiard Congress of America been up to during that time? Why they have been out trolling other shows trying to sell booth space to people outside the billiard industry instead of doing things to promote interest in playing pool or investing in the billiard industry.

In fact it's quite likely that the guy who just put in the two ping pong tables bought them from a vendor at the BILLIARD Congress of America's Expo.

If it were me running the BCA with a 4 million dollar budget - I would have paid a guy $60,000 a year to pester ESPN, TRAVEL CHANNEL, etc.... to step up and broadcast the league finals every year. Lots of great content there.

I would have paid another person $60,000 a year to go pester the Fortune 500 and sell them on sponsoring a PGA style professional tour for men and women.

I would have paid another person $60,000 a year to travel around the country booking shows for professional players.

I would have made sure that EVERY Boys and Girls club and community center in America had well kept equipment, rule books, AND instructors.

And so on until the whole budget was used up PROMOTING POOL.

So yeah the sport is fading and it's largely due to the sorry way the BCA has wasted the industry's money this past decade not to mention this past two decades.

This post make too much sense!!!!