I am so sick of it.

[Maniac]

Here's my idea for a tourney format: $7 entry fee, 32 players, $224 total. Bar owner keeps all the entry fee money. Winner of tournament buys 2 rounds of drinks (at bar owners expense) for everyone entered. 2nd place buys 1 round (also at bar owners expense) for all entered. Third place gets a handshake and a pat on the back for a job well done. Sure the bar owner is out some money for alcohol, but it's no difference than added money, and he gets the $224. And for sure, everyone will go home happy and will have had a good time!!!

Seriously (although the above solution would probably work in a LOT of bars/poolhalls), I never have understood what makes people so eager to play leagues as opposed to weekly tournaments. For approximately the same amount of money as league play, a tournament can get you more games played overall WITH a chance at something at the end (cash). I never have understood why we would want to sit in a bar/poolhall for three or four hours to play a match that COULD possibly be only 2 games long. If you went two-and-out in a tournament (race to five winners side, race to three losers side, a very common format for weekly tournaments) and never WON a single game, you're gonna get to play at least EIGHT games for your $10 (give or take a few bucks). Someone please explain to me what makes leagues so popular as opposed to a weekly tournament. The only thing I can think of is so you can sit around a table socializing with your buddies (this would be hard to do in a tournament).

Maniac

 

[jason]

So, with your 32 players and $224 you have a fine event. First place...a $99 dollar cue. Second place $40, third $35, 4th $25, 5th and 6th $20, 7th and 8th $10, and 9th thru 12th...give them a free entry to another event.

Thats 12 people strutting their stuff all week, about how they "made the cash".

I'm not trying to be a Debbie-downer here or anything, but geeze... I hardly think it is considered "strutting your stuff" when you have spent 4 hours playing a tournament to win second place and only netting $8.25 an hour.

Who are you going to brag to? Someone who makes $8.00 an hour for minimum wage? At least they didn't risk the $7.00.

 

[CreeDo]

I like the whole thing and I've seen successful small tournaments. I've also seen 100% payback, with owner adding table time for the bottom finishers, and interest just dwindles away to 0 after a few weeks of it. I'm not sure what the difference is. I guess if your room does ok in general and is run well, your tournaments will show it.

Let's not all get hung up on the 100 dollar cue. That's typical pool player mentality, find the one thing 'wrong' in a good 30 line post :/ ...people can be offered 50-60 in cash or the "$100" cue, problem solved. Win/win for the owner.

I like the small local tournaments and imo it's weird if any pool hall DOESN'T run a small weekly thing. As roger pointed out, they just have to scale the money to suit the area. If it's beginners everywhere, they feel like 5 bucks is practically a "free" shot at winning 50. And they might take that same gamble every week out of the month. Meanwhile they wouldn't dream of spending 20 to win 200 bucks even though it's basically the same thing.

Once someone gets the routine down for running a tournament there's no reason you can't have the $5 tourney on one day and the $20 on another.

 

[maha]

bar and pool room owners that are good promoters dont need pool tournys. but bad promoters do and cant promote ones that draw in real customers and not just ones that come for the tourny and leave without spending any money.

 

[Fatboy]

i have never won a pool tournment in my life at a pool room.


I agree with Jay and the OP it sounds like a good promo, anything to get people to play more.

 

[The Machine]

Proven again

I see from the replies that I was proven correct.

How many people woofed, and made jokes baout the $99 cue? This is my point exactly. By offering it, you don't attratct the money grubbers. You attract people who want to compete and enjoy. And, yes, once a person wins the $99 cue, they may not come back to win another one. But if they love the event, and competing and playing they will.

Some people indicated tourneys that payed 50%, 30% 10%. Of course nobody goes. The same group of 5-6 players will alwyas win the 3 prizes, and will always come because it is money making rather than fun. So...the lesser players won't bother.

A couple people said why would they waste four hours to make $40-50 bucks. Exactly. You are the people I DON'T want at the tournament, that is why the structure is so.

Amazing that so many of these people don't get it. We need to create these new players, so that there are enough good players to run the bigger payout events....in time.

As to the people who whined about running pool tourneys for table time and such....again...you want something. You have the right people in your small event, it is a joy and pleasure to run, not a chore. Pool room owners are dropping the ball here. They need to choose better people, that do it just TO HAVE the event, and to compete.

One of the main things that has killed small tourneys is the people running them. Too many are run by people who simply want a payday. These are top of the small fish bowl players, who want $25 to run the thing, then only pay 3 prizes so the payout for them is high, and they win the lions share of the money. These are the people that have killed pool. However, if the venue managers were more savvy, they would not allow it.

I used to ride around and go to these events. Always a top guy(in that lil area) running it, expecting to win, and always doing well. I would roll in and crush them, take the $75, $100, 0r $125 and roll to the next town. I had a schedule setup that had me in a different place every day of the week, and never drove more than 60 miles. Was making $1500 a month on top of my day job. Funny thing tho, after a very short while the fields got smaller and smaller. Now I was there winning, and the 2 top locals were 2nd and 3rd...why would anyone come?

And...would I drive for a cue or $40? NO

 

[The Machine]

reread the replies, and am simply amazed. So mmany people say make it $20 with a $200 payout. You just don't get it. The "players" will come for $200. You don't want that, unless the 13th -16th place guy can win $20.

And, Rossaroni....jeez louise. You whine about a $500 added event that draws 11 players. You certauinly do not get it. The 11 that show up are the only 11 with a realistic chance to win. Cut every prize in half, and add it to the bottom end finishers...and you will have an event...and some of those 11 won't come because of the lesser cash potential.

Whenever I go to a new town or city...I win everything for 3 weeks. Then the tourney directors say I can't play. EVERY CITY. This is ridiculous. If you are offering $150 for the winner on a four hour evening of pool...why wouldn't I come. Don't penalize the good players...structure tourneys so it is not worth them coming.

Perhaps an analogy. I play online poker. I win $100 a month like clockwork, in tourneys. My biggest buy in is $1, and most of my tourneys are 25 cent buyins. I am ecstatic to place first out of 45, and collect my $3.52 !! More often than not tho, I win 39 cents or $1.01 and play the next one.

Am I a good poker player...no, I don't think so. But, the top guys are not in these tourneys, so I can compete, enjoy, and have a chance at a lil fun money.

And I see poker is not doing too badly!!! Maybe a lesson for pool.

 

[DoubleA]

I see from the replies that I was proven correct.

How many people woofed, and made jokes baout the $99 cue? This is my point exactly. By offering it, you don't attratct the money grubbers. You attract people who want to compete and enjoy. And, yes, once a person wins the $99 cue, they may not come back to win another one. But if they love the event, and competing and playing they will.

Some people indicated tourneys that payed 50%, 30% 10%. Of course nobody goes. The same group of 5-6 players will alwyas win the 3 prizes, and will always come because it is money making rather than fun. So...the lesser players won't bother.

A couple people said why would they waste four hours to make $40-50 bucks. Exactly. You are the people I DON'T want at the tournament, that is why the structure is so.

Amazing that so many of these people don't get it. We need to create these new players, so that there are enough good players to run the bigger payout events....in time.

As to the people who whined about running pool tourneys for table time and such....again...you want something. You have the right people in your small event, it is a joy and pleasure to run, not a chore. Pool room owners are dropping the ball here. They need to choose better people, that do it just TO HAVE the event, and to compete.

One of the main things that has killed small tourneys is the people running them. Too many are run by people who simply want a payday. These are top of the small fish bowl players, who want $25 to run the thing, then only pay 3 prizes so the payout for them is high, and they win the lions share of the money. These are the people that have killed pool. However, if the venue managers were more savvy, they would not allow it.

I used to ride around and go to these events. Always a top guy(in that lil area) running it, expecting to win, and always doing well. I would roll in and crush them, take the $75, $100, 0r $125 and roll to the next town. I had a schedule setup that had me in a different place every day of the week, and never drove more than 60 miles. Was making $1500 a month on top of my day job. Funny thing tho, after a very short while the fields got smaller and smaller. Now I was there winning, and the 2 top locals were 2nd and 3rd...why would anyone come?

And...would I drive for a cue or $40? NO

The most popular tourn in our area is a 10 dollar entry, non-handicapped,no money added, no table fees, paying 3-4 places, on Monday nites. If you enter the tourn, you can practice free from about 5 0'clock until tourn time(8 o'clock prompt), and play for free until closing time. Packs them in, sells much alcohol and food. seems to be the right combination.

 

[The Machine]

Personal Guarantee

Further...I will GUARANTEE that any struggling pool room in Canada can improve dramatically. Pay me $10 an hour for 4 hours for 5 days of the week. Allow me free pool so that I will be there on my own time to further promote and do my thing. That is $200 a week.

Provide me with the pool revenue numbers for the last one year. After one year, my bonus cheque will be 50% of the increase in pool revenue. Then I leave. You won't need me any more.

 

[bobroberts]

The machine makes a great point about small tournaments.It keeps the players away and allows the newbies to win a little something and brag to their friends who dont play.Pretty soon the friends start showing up also.
The reason the larger tournaments don't make out is because there is no chance for a c or d player to ever win so they lose interest.
Makes good business sense.

 

[Neil]

.............

 

[Neil]

.............

 

[The Machine]

My friend. In no way did I say that good players cannot play, or throw them under the bus.

I simply structure tournaments so that these players can choose to play or not. if they play, it is too make an appearance, and maybe win a small prize. It is NOT to come and moneygrub and win a large prize.

I love it when a top guy shows up....and the up and comers like it too. No matter what the "top" guy wins...there are still 11 other prizes.

I handicap some 9 ball, so when top guys come, the lil guy who beats him has huge bragging rights. It is about promotion, and advertising. i think it was BobRoberts who noted that after each event, I have 12 happy winners out there promoting pool and the tourney.

 

[DelaWho???]

My friend. In no way did I say that good players cannot play, or throw them under the bus.

I simply structure tournaments so that these players can choose to play or not. if they play, it is too make an appearance, and maybe win a small prize. It is NOT to come and moneygrub and win a large prize.

I love it when a top guy shows up....and the up and comers like it too. No matter what the "top" guy wins...there are still 11 other prizes.

I handicap some 9 ball, so when top guys come, the lil guy who beats him has huge bragging rights. It is about promotion, and advertising. i think it was BobRoberts who noted that after each event, I have 12 happy winners out there promoting pool and the tourney.

The 60 30 10 tourney I mentioned is played at a moose lodge on the worst valley boxes you can imagine. Nothing but league players in there. The Friday tourney is 8 ball race to 1 double elimination and the moose usually has a dinner on Friday nights. People come in for dinner and play the tourney. It's $6 to get in and a dollar of entry goes to fund the prizes for the the kids tourney and the adult/kid scotch doubles tourney held once a month (both of which are free to enter) In the doubles tourney the adults on the winning teams get a dinner for a prize, the kids get gift certificates to the local mall and a trophy. The kids tourney top prize is a cue.

On Saturday it's $5 9 ball race to 2 double elimination which pays the top 3. The Friday tourney always has a better turnout than Saturday.

It's rare to see the same guy win 2 weeks in a row, and they do come from all over the county to play. People who never go into the moose regularly show up for the tourney. A lot of them don't come often because there isn't big money to be made, but there are 20 or so players there every week playign on the same garbage equipment week in and week out. It isn't about the money, but the chance to go home having your night paid for in tourney winnings brings them in.

I play because it is the only game in town. If there were a room that offered a similar field with quality equipment close to home I'd be there every week. I want to compete, I'm not starving for cash so it isn't as important to me. I do like the feeling of walking out with prize money in my pocket. It makes me feel like I accomplished something. It doesn't matter if it's $10 for 3rd or $80 for first, Playing well and winning is what is important to me, I couldn't care less what I won, though if it was a $99 cue I'd just end up giving it away to a new league player who didn't have his own cue.

 

[Island Drive]

I see from the replies that I was proven correct.

How many people woofed, and made jokes baout the $99 cue? This is my point exactly. By offering it, you don't attratct the money grubbers. You attract people who want to compete and enjoy. And, yes, once a person wins the $99 cue, they may not come back to win another one. But if they love the event, and competing and playing they will.

Some people indicated tourneys that payed 50%, 30% 10%. Of course nobody goes. The same group of 5-6 players will alwyas win the 3 prizes, and will always come because it is money making rather than fun. So...the lesser players won't bother.

A couple people said why would they waste four hours to make $40-50 bucks. Exactly. You are the people I DON'T want at the tournament, that is why the structure is so.

Amazing that so many of these people don't get it. We need to create these new players, so that there are enough good players to run the bigger payout events....in time.

As to the people who whined about running pool tourneys for table time and such....again...you want something. You have the right people in your small event, it is a joy and pleasure to run, not a chore. Pool room owners are dropping the ball here. They need to choose better people, that do it just TO HAVE the event, and to compete.

One of the main things that has killed small tourneys is the people running them. Too many are run by people who simply want a payday. These are top of the small fish bowl players, who want $25 to run the thing, then only pay 3 prizes so the payout for them is high, and they win the lions share of the money. These are the people that have killed pool. However, if the venue managers were more savvy, they would not allow it.

I used to ride around and go to these events. Always a top guy(in that lil area) running it, expecting to win, and always doing well. I would roll in and crush them, take the $75, $100, 0r $125 and roll to the next town. I had a schedule setup that had me in a different place every day of the week, and never drove more than 60 miles. Was making $1500 a month on top of my day job. Funny thing tho, after a very short while the fields got smaller and smaller. Now I was there winning, and the 2 top locals were 2nd and 3rd...why would anyone come?

And...would I drive for a cue or $40? NO

Traditionally the BCA in its John Lewis days at the Nationals in May, did pay out I think it was 42% of the field (Mark G may still do this I have no idea), its good to get something back for your time/effort and not pay out top heavy in amateur events, pro events tho have been top heavy and may of set the tone for smaller events over the years, yet the payout structure for the larger demographics of people that enjoy competition and new relationships while playing a game they enjoy is very effective and it has proven itself to work, the BCA Nationals at the Rivera proved that.

 

[Island Drive]

DBl thread............................................

 

[CocoboloCowboy]

bar and pool room owners that are good promoters dont need pool tournys. but bad promoters do and cant promote ones that draw in real customers and not just ones that come for the tourny and leave without spending any money.

I think many Bar & Room Owner, and TD miss the boat by not greeting customer, say good bye when customer leave, and learning their customers names.

We HAD A POOL BAR in the Valley that went under, the own only HUNG with the "A" Players, never greeted new people, never introduce himself to new people, and never made you feel like coming back again.

 

[cajunfats]

Reward System

Traditionally the BCA in its John Lewis days at the Nationals in May, did pay out I think it was 42% of the field (Mark G may still do this I have no idea), its good to get something back for your time/effort and not pay out top heavy in amateur events, pro events tho have been top heavy and may of set the tone for smaller events over the years, yet the payout structure for the larger demographics of people that enjoy competition and new relationships while playing a game they enjoy is very effective and it has proven itself to work, the BCA Nationals at the Rivera proved that.

This is correct Bill. When I was John's Assistant back in the early-mid 90's,when the BCA League's went from 111 Sanction's to 360+,we often talked about how the Reward System for participants benefits Everyone,not just the Elite Amateur Players. Your percentage estimation is very much on the mark. Almost half of the players cashed because 100% went to the payouts. The BCA footed the bill for the Staff to handle the registrations and payouts. High Country Promotions got the coin drop for running the tournament. Whether prizes or money,the deeper the payout,the more a person feels like a "Winner."

 

[Roger Long]

I agree with PART of what you are saying. You do need to build up a future generation of clientel. However, that clientel is poolplayers. The beginner tournaments can get them hooked, and have them come in to practice so they can win. (Should be the goal of the owner for tournaments) However, once they have put in thousands of hours of practice in your room, so that now they CAN win, you want to throw them under the bus and tell them they can't play anymore!

I will NEVER understand any room owner that says they don't want players. That players don't make them any money! The players are the repeat customers! They are the ones you want! They will be there in the good times, and the slow times. The casual player cannot be relied on. And many rooms are basically empty in the summer because of that.

The players are the ones that want to be in the room during the off hours. They want the poolroom atmosphere, not the nite club atmosphere. They are the ones that keep you going in the off hours. I have seen way too many room owners that want to crap all over the players. Even to the point of telling them they don't want them there! What in the world ! Room owners that don't want poolplayers! Pretty soon those kind of rooms end up like the ones here now. No players, no business. The players get tired of the B.S. and quit coming around.

Neil,

I think the smart pool room owners see ALL customers as "players," and they want ALL levels in their rooms - not just the good ones. They also don't like to be pressured into treating the higher skilled players better than they do the lesser skilled players. If a room owner lets the upper echelon players dictate how the room is going to be run, that upper echelon will eventually run off the rest of the customers because they don't like being around that "noisy bunch of bangers." And whenever this happens, the pool room dies altogether.

Roger

 

[poolstar31]

Further...I will GUARANTEE that any struggling pool room in Canada can improve dramatically. Pay me $10 an hour for 4 hours for 5 days of the week. Allow me free pool so that I will be there on my own time to further promote and do my thing. That is $200 a week.

Provide me with the pool revenue numbers for the last one year. After one year, my bonus cheque will be 50% of the increase in pool revenue. Then I leave. You won't need me any more.

I thought you didnt like "money grubbers" who are looking for a payday from pool?