CTE aiming.

[SpiderWebComm]

I have been dis-ing this thread from the beginning. Dis-believing, dis-respecting and dis-illusioned, but it IS coming together. Just quoted my last post to make a small change. Sometimes you only need to move 1/2 tip but not really over a tip. If you are going more than 1 tip over, you probably need to go to the other side... but I could be wrong and my mind could be changed, but it IS coming together. Some shots the aim seems way off but they are dropping, shots I used to be 50/50 on. But some shots are slightly off, and it is obvious before the shot. Those are the ones that only need a 1/2 tip. I recommend repeating the same shots that are not working for you and trying 1/2 tip.

P.S. A guy not posting in this thread PM'ed me his number last week and offered to teach me CTE over the phone. I PM'ed him back about setting up a good time to call but have not heard back. If you read this, I am still interested in talking to you or hearing your thoughts about where I am in a PM.
Thanks, Ron

Ron,

You'll eventually get to the point where you pivot the same way (for me = 1/2 ball pivot) for every shot. You're likely not pivoting along the correct arc based on the length of the shot (so you're adjusting). Keep at it - you just started. Eventually, it becomes thoughtless.

 

[SpiderWebComm]

This is what I also found. In order to cut all of the various angles from 40 degrees to 90 degrees, you need to shift the cue laterally different distances with a slight shift for 35-40 degrees and 1 1/2 tips for 85-90 degrees etc. as you found..... but this only is repeatable for a given distance and I overcut the 85-90 degree cut when the OB is moved further away from the CB.

After getting down with a CTE stance/position and lateral and parallel shift:

I then focused on where on the OB was the cue pointed after the shift. For me, if I shift laterally until the saft is pointed at the center of the OB for the 85-90 degrees - a ~1 1/2 tip shift for say a separation of 10.0" between the CB and the OB.

I then moved the OB farther away and noticed that the OB was visually smaller but I could see and aimed at the center of the smaller appearing OB and the cut was 85-90 degrees for this distance as well. This worked for all distances greater than say 10.0 ".

I conclude that as the distance is greateer, the OB appears to be smaller but I could find the OB edge and center. So using this distance (OB edge to OB center) as a target (line) that I aimed at in fractions.

I didn't have enough table time to say what cut angle a 1/2 of the length of the line or quarter ball was exactly but it was a 50-60 degreee cut. So with this and more time I can document what fraction equates to what cut angle.

I can draw this up on a 2D design software AutoCad and document the results later.

I find my (different than the advertised partial descriptions) version of CTE to be another tool that has validity - now for different CB to OB separation distances.

I don't feel comfortable with the CTE, shift, aim and pivot so I prolly won't use it.

This can be reversed engineered for the diameter of a players shaft that may be smaller or larger, but aiming at a point on the OB takes that out of the equation - to me.

Just sayin.

I think you guys are adjusting the offset because you're pivoting around your bridge and not arcing through it. The diameter of the shaft has no bearing on your technique (or shouldn't, at least).

If your bridge is the center of a circle and the OB is the edge of the same circle, pivot along the arc of that circle. If you rotate from your bridge, you'll require a bunch of adjustments. Practice 1/2 ball pivots (same pivot each and every time).

 

[CreeDo]

Well, my post that I spent an hour on got 1000% ignored, so I'm inclined to bow out.
I guess asking for specifics was too spoonfeedy or whatever.

Random observations:

- The perspective "revelation" is bunk. You walk up to the cue ball and aim to hit the OB right in the face. The stick, tip, center of CB, and center of OB are all on a single line. You then rotate left or right until you're now pointing at the OB edge. You've lined up a half-ball hit, yay.

There is no alternate perspective for this. Swc's making it sound like you can line up the shot different ways depending on the sharpness of the cut, and that's how CTE adjusts for different cuts. Ok, draw me a diagram showing two different angles where I can point my stick through the center of the CB and to the left edge of the OB.

He talks about the shooter's perspective changing as they go around the table. Ok, how does the shooter choose the "correct" perspective to start out with? Maybe by being aware already of how much to cut the ball, based on his non-CTE experience? What if I lean across the pocket to reach my shot and my left nut is extra chafey today and I end up draping it a little more sideways, and my perspective changed? Am I still aiming at the "correct" edge out of all those edges?

- We have yet to account for SVB vs hopkins bridge length difference. He wants us to believe it shouldn't matter, but but he also said the pivot is happening around the middle finger of the shooter. Two different middle finger placements = two different lines of aim post-pivot.

- We have yet to figure if the shooter starts out lining up the shot crooked, and finishes straight after the pivot... or if the act of pivoting makes his cue crooked and he needs to move his entire body to accomodate the new line... and can he do this without wrecking his aim? Or do you just stroke a lil crooked (like with BHE)?

- Could the pivot be explained any less clearly than with a statement like "the only conscious movement is to move the cue along a portion of the radian that starts from the OB vertical plane at 12:00 (think a minute hand around a clock face)."

I mean, seriously, I don't see Dr. Dave talking radians and planes. Why is the PHD speaking plain english and swc not?

...What? Hey, I said it was like the hand on a clock. Anyone can understand that!

OK, how is it like that? If the cue stick rotates around your middle finger, that's a pivot to be sure. But your middle finger is the center of the clock, not the OB. How can the stick be like the hand of a clock if the stick is getting pivoted at some point along the shaft? Does your clock hand spin as it sweeps around the clock face?

- And WTF is this two circle crap anyway? NEWS FLASH > you're still unclear to both the insanely patient PHD and the rest of us schmucks. Telling us there are two circles with zero methodology brings us 0% closer to figuring out how to line up the shot.

- What's SWC's motivation for this?

Well, here's what I've observed: He likes to 'debunk' commonly accepted common sense stuff if he feels it's overrated... stuff like pendulum stroke, fundamentals, etc. He also has made a bunch of little digs about "You geniuses" and the "PHD". Spidey is the guy who doesn't need no book learnin' to get the job done, he has hard-bought pool experience won on the streets! Street-pool-smarts! All you fancy scientists and so-called scholars with your clearly explained and observable and repeatable horseshìt can't shoot as straight our hypothetical high school dropout who knows the Secret CTE Pai Mei Five Finger Death Punch taught to him by the Old Master!

And just think, spidey has thousands of hours of practice with this effective system. I can't believe I haven't spotted him on ESPN by now.

I think he gets off feeling like the clever guy who knows a secret and is not telling. He doesn't want to make you aware of CTE or prove it's legit or defend the value of it. He just wants to make sure you're aware that he knows it, and you never will.

He disguises this simple act of rubbing-it-in-your-face as some sort of socratic teaching method whereby the brightest bulbs will magically deduce the process that he does or does not want to share with us, depending on which post you read.

I think it's funny that hal can explain it to you at the table in 5 minutes and the high school dropout can quintuple his ball pocketing overnight, but swc needed thousands of hours to learn it. He's implying he's a lot thicker than this dropout, which probably wasn't his goal. And of course we're obviously COMPLETE morons for not figuring out what spidey learned much less quickly than the dropout.

You don't need to reply to this one either spidey, I'm not reading any more here... it's a relief to not waste any more time on it.

 

[mristea]

Finally a logical post. The onus isn't on me to post squat. I post enough to combat the broad-brush comments on how/why CTE doesn't work and I leave it at that.

I just don't want to post in 5 minutes what took me thousands of hours to learn.

Also, the following don't post 100% of their info online for free:

- Dr. Dave (VEPS volumes)
- Gene A. (Perfect Aim)
- Blackjack (14.1 book / 9-ball book)
- Stan Shuffett (Pro1)
- Scott Lee (SAM, mother drills, etc)

I mean come on people--- I know there's a sense of entitlement to CTE since Hal "gives it away for free"--- so I'll give it to you for free as Hal gave it to me:

Sight CTE, move your bridge to the side and pivot to center.

There ya go. Free lesson. In the meantime, it'd be nice if we had a civil discussion and end the double-standards and politics.

Here's my deal: The moment the above instructors post their info to the main forum for all to view for free, I'll post the rest. Until then - chill out with with the posts saying it's on me to post details since I'm the main proponent. Being the main proponent doesn't mean I have to give up info for nothing. Sheesh.

P.S. Sean, this wasn't pointed at you - rather in general since there's been a number of posts blasting me for not posting a whitepaper. For the record, I have a whitepaper (getting up to around 30 pages long at this point in time). I don't know what to do with it--- I might do nothing with it. It took me almost a year to put it together in my spare time. The "science guys" as you put it don't want the answer because they want to be told the answer, in full report form. If Mike and the gang want to say "Nothing to see here people," that's cool. I still like Mike and the gang.

Dave,
Maybe you could start thinking about selling your 30+ pages CTE info material.
Just prepare a nice looking little book (or even easier you can just scan your papers and prepare a small pdf e-book), and then start comercializing it. Thus you can give a part of your income to Hal as well, as you were saying some time ago.
I'm sure sooner or later somebody will put all these pivotal aiming systems on paper/video and start selling them, so why not be the first one...

I would buy this kind of info - mainly because I am not living in US so I can not take lessons from Hal/Ron V/Stan etc. I discussed with Ron some time ago by e-mail and he was OK to have a phone call with me showing me his 90/90 system, but to this day I didn't call him yet because I don't think I can learn CTE or 90/90 simply by phone...

 

[Geometry]

Geometry - thanks for your response. You're the only one who took the time to answer correctly. You're correct. The only piece you're missing is the 3rd item: the edges that you see shift and the addressable edge on the CB changes, resulting in a different path through the core of the CB.

Gold star for GEOMETRY. Go, figure - with that name.

Dave

Yay

I'm going to work hard on this until I get it .

I just want to say thank you for sharing knowledge on this as I would never really would have any deep information on CTE without your help. I still don't have it yet but feel confident that sooner or later the egg will hatch.

 

[Elephant Man]

I think you guys are adjusting the offset because you're pivoting around your bridge and not arcing through it. The diameter of the shaft has no bearing on your technique (or shouldn't, at least).

If your bridge is the center of a circle and the OB is the edge of the same circle, pivot along the arc of that circle. If you rotate from your bridge, you'll require a bunch of adjustments. Practice 1/2 ball pivots (same pivot each and every time).

I am definitely pivoting around my bridge. Have seen the diagram of the pivot at about 2 bridges back, with the sorta roll of the bridge, but dismissed it as too awkward and hard to repeat, especially using an open bridge. But I now understand where the pivot point should be and see how it changes based on bridge length. I just don't see how it can be done on a shot where the CB and OB are say, 5-7 feet apart. Guess that is where the minds eye comes in...

 

[SpiderWebComm]

Well, my post that I spent an hour on got 1000% ignored, so I'm inclined to bow out.
I guess asking for specifics was too spoonfeedy or whatever.

Random observations:

- The perspective "revelation" is bunk. You walk up to the cue ball and aim to hit the OB right in the face. The stick, tip, center of CB, and center of OB are all on a single line. You then rotate left or right until you're now pointing at the OB edge. You've lined up a half-ball hit, yay.

There is no alternate perspective for this. Swc's making it sound like you can line up the shot different ways depending on the sharpness of the cut, and that's how CTE adjusts for different cuts. Ok, draw me a diagram showing two different angles where I can point my stick through the center of the CB and to the left edge of the OB.

He talks about the shooter's perspective changing as they go around the table. Ok, how does the shooter choose the "correct" perspective to start out with? Maybe by being aware already of how much to cut the ball, based on his non-CTE experience? What if I lean across the pocket to reach my shot and my left nut is extra chafey today and I end up draping it a little more sideways, and my perspective changed? Am I still aiming at the "correct" edge out of all those edges?

- We have yet to account for SVB vs hopkins bridge length difference. He wants us to believe it shouldn't matter, but but he also said the pivot is happening around the middle finger of the shooter. Two different middle finger placements = two different lines of aim post-pivot.

- We have yet to figure if the shooter starts out lining up the shot crooked, and finishes straight after the pivot... or if the act of pivoting makes his cue crooked and he needs to move his entire body to accomodate the new line... and can he do this without wrecking his aim? Or do you just stroke a lil crooked (like with BHE)?

- Could the pivot be explained any less clearly than with a statement like "the only conscious movement is to move the cue along a portion of the radian that starts from the OB vertical plane at 12:00 (think a minute hand around a clock face)."

I mean, seriously, I don't see Dr. Dave talking radians and planes. Why is the PHD speaking plain english and swc not?

...What? Hey, I said it was like the hand on a clock. Anyone can understand that!

OK, how is it like that? If the cue stick rotates around your middle finger, that's a pivot to be sure. But your middle finger is the center of the clock, not the OB. How can the stick be like the hand of a clock if the stick is getting pivoted at some point along the shaft? Does your clock hand spin as it sweeps around the clock face?

- And WTF is this two circle crap anyway? NEWS FLASH > you're still unclear to both the insanely patient PHD and the rest of us schmucks. Telling us there are two circles with zero methodology brings us 0% closer to figuring out how to line up the shot.

- What's SWC's motivation for this?

Well, here's what I've observed: He likes to 'debunk' commonly accepted common sense stuff if he feels it's overrated... stuff like pendulum stroke, fundamentals, etc. He also has made a bunch of little digs about "You geniuses" and the "PHD". Spidey is the guy who doesn't need no book learnin' to get the job done, he has hard-bought pool experience won on the streets! Street-pool-smarts! All you fancy scientists and so-called scholars with your clearly explained and observable and repeatable horseshìt can't shoot as straight our hypothetical high school dropout who knows the Secret CTE Pai Mei Five Finger Death Punch taught to him by the Old Master!

And just think, spidey has thousands of hours of practice with this effective system. I can't believe I haven't spotted him on ESPN by now.

I think he gets off feeling like the clever guy who knows a secret and is not telling. He doesn't want to make you aware of CTE or prove it's legit or defend the value of it. He just wants to make sure you're aware that he knows it, and you never will.

He disguises this simple act of rubbing-it-in-your-face as some sort of socratic teaching method whereby the brightest bulbs will magically deduce the process that he does or does not want to share with us, depending on which post you read.

I think it's funny that hal can explain it to you at the table in 5 minutes and the high school dropout can quintuple his ball pocketing overnight, but swc needed thousands of hours to learn it. He's implying he's a lot thicker than this dropout, which probably wasn't his goal. And of course we're obviously COMPLETE morons for not figuring out what spidey learned much less quickly than the dropout.

You don't need to reply to this one either spidey, I'm not reading any more here... it's a relief to not waste any more time on it.

I started answering all the questions until I got to the end and said __-it. You're obviously really angry. Maybe you should track down this information off the computer. You sound like a baby whose parents made him eat his brussel sprouts. Just be happy I said anything in this entire thread, as far as I'm concerned. Your first two or three bullet items above are completely off. CTE isn't stick aiming. If you're worried about where the tip is pointing on the OB, you're doing something - but it ain't CTE.

 

[SpiderWebComm]

I am definitely pivoting around my bridge. Have seen the diagram of the pivot at about 2 bridges back, with the sorta roll of the bridge, but dismissed it as too awkward and hard to repeat, especially using an open bridge. But I now understand where the pivot point should be and see how it changes based on bridge length. I just don't see how it can be done on a shot where the CB and OB are say, 5-7 feet apart. Guess that is where the minds eye comes in...

Pretend the OB is a sticker on a sheet of glass that extends perpendicular from the table and your field of vision. Imagine your cue extending to this plane until it goes *CLINK* on this glass (barely touches it). Now, scrape your tip along this glass until you hit the center of the CB.

Doesn't matter if you have a closed/open bridge. You'll see that you hit two different centers with what you're doing versus what I'm saying.

 

[Blackjack]

Dear Dave Segal

How dare you try to share this CTE with others. Shame on you. You're a sick, evil bastarrd. I curse you! May your head get shat upon by a thousand pigeons.

 

[dr_dave]

FYI, the video, along with a complete description, can be found here:

http://billiards.colostate.edu/threads/aiming.html#CTE​

Regards,
Dave

When I first tried CTE I watched this video, from a link somewhere in this thread. It wasn't really working for me and someone replied that the video was misleading, so I didn't give it any more thought. Since then I have been following this thread and experimenting, but like most here, haven't come up with anything consistent. In my search for more info on CTE this video kept popping up, but I just skipped past it. Well there really isn't much info out there so I decided to watch it again. After experimenting for a couple of weeks and then watching the video again, it is really starting to make sense. The video claims to show you that it works for every angle, and it almost does. But I think the 1 tip off center is too general and that sometimes you need 1/2 tip and sometimes 1 1/2 tips. I use about a 10 inch bridge and haven't needed to change length yet. A LOT of shots have become effortless, and some tough shots are much easier already. Haven't tried to add side yet but top and bottom are ok. I think I see the light, and I think this video is more useful than I was led to believe.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bi_UCD-eD00

 

[skip]

This is the way my son, i will point the way. Sure a system is just that. This one sounds great. Know the fundamentals an practice as much as you can, This is the way my son. No names but I was watching the stream last week end a seem like a very nice man was having a special on his system, dvd an book. Around 100 buck a rues. Point being he was in the tournament got beat up pretty good. Will say he has super large k hone Es letting it hang out like that. My feeling are you must have that special thing you must be born with talent . You can be a good fighter or a great fighter, no body wants to get their head kicked in. Great painter or house painter. I've seen everything on here from have a drink before a match or take an atenolol to lower your heart beat. What every works for you go for it. When someone ask do you play pool I say yes, because that's all I do is play. NO talent, hope I did't bore you too much. Skip

 

[Beer:30]

Just be happy I said anything in this entire thread, as far as I'm concerned.

Wow.......

 

[SpiderWebComm]

Wow.......

That's what I said when I read his post. Especially when I got to the last 2 paragraphs.

 

[sfleinen]

Dear Dave Segal

How dare you try to share this CTE with others. Shame on you. You're a sick, evil bastarrd. I curse you! May your head get shat upon by a thousand pigeons.

"No, Blackjack, Dave will use his 'visual intelligence' to spot the incoming poop 'shot arc', he'll line-up on the poop-to-Dave's-noggin-edge-line, and 'air pivot' out of the way."



(J/K, Spidey!)
-Sean

 

[dr_dave]

Dave will use his 'visual intelligence' to spot the incoming poop 'shot arc', he'll line-up on the poop-to-Dave's-noggin-edge-line, and 'air pivot' out of the way.

I think this CTE stuff is finally starting to make sense. Flying poop is the perfect analogy. The next time a pigeon flies by when I'm playing pool, I'll be prepared. :grin-square:

Regards,
Dave

 

[SpiderWebComm]

I think this CTE stuff is finally starting to make sense. Flying poop is the perfect analogy. The next time a pigeon flies by when I'm playing pool, I'll be prepared. :grin-square:

Regards,
Dave

I think we should have a DAM vs. CTE competition. You can even setup all the shots. PJ would say that doesn't prove anything, but I always think it does.

Sean, I love ya man. If we ever meet, you'll eat those words and buy me dinner for the lesson.

 

[sfleinen]

I think we should have a DAM vs. CTE competition. You can even setup all the shots. PJ would say that doesn't prove anything, but I always think it does.

Sean, I love ya man. If we ever meet, you'll eat those words and buy me dinner for the lesson.

Dinner for a CTE lesson? You got it! It'd be my pleasure, as I'm always on the prowl to learn something new (or to learn how something works / ticks). However, the tables might be turned during a match, and you'll buy that dinner back.

 

[SpiderWebComm]

Dinner for a CTE lesson? You got it! It'd be my pleasure, as I'm always on the prowl to learn something new (or to learn how something works / ticks). However, the tables might be turned during a match, and you'll buy that dinner back.

Eh - I'll play you at banks so your pro-tour positioning skills won't play as big a part. So, do two dinners equal a Mortons?

 

[Roger Long]

Well, my post that I spent an hour on got 1000% ignored, so I'm inclined to bow out.
I guess asking for specifics was too spoonfeedy or whatever.

Random observations:

- The perspective "revelation" is bunk. You walk up to the cue ball and aim to hit the OB right in the face. The stick, tip, center of CB, and center of OB are all on a single line. You then rotate left or right until you're now pointing at the OB edge. You've lined up a half-ball hit, yay.

There is no alternate perspective for this. Swc's making it sound like you can line up the shot different ways depending on the sharpness of the cut, and that's how CTE adjusts for different cuts. Ok, draw me a diagram showing two different angles where I can point my stick through the center of the CB and to the left edge of the OB.

He talks about the shooter's perspective changing as they go around the table. Ok, how does the shooter choose the "correct" perspective to start out with? Maybe by being aware already of how much to cut the ball, based on his non-CTE experience? What if I lean across the pocket to reach my shot and my left nut is extra chafey today and I end up draping it a little more sideways, and my perspective changed? Am I still aiming at the "correct" edge out of all those edges?

- We have yet to account for SVB vs hopkins bridge length difference. He wants us to believe it shouldn't matter, but but he also said the pivot is happening around the middle finger of the shooter. Two different middle finger placements = two different lines of aim post-pivot.

- We have yet to figure if the shooter starts out lining up the shot crooked, and finishes straight after the pivot... or if the act of pivoting makes his cue crooked and he needs to move his entire body to accomodate the new line... and can he do this without wrecking his aim? Or do you just stroke a lil crooked (like with BHE)?

- Could the pivot be explained any less clearly than with a statement like "the only conscious movement is to move the cue along a portion of the radian that starts from the OB vertical plane at 12:00 (think a minute hand around a clock face)."

I mean, seriously, I don't see Dr. Dave talking radians and planes. Why is the PHD speaking plain english and swc not?

...What? Hey, I said it was like the hand on a clock. Anyone can understand that!

OK, how is it like that? If the cue stick rotates around your middle finger, that's a pivot to be sure. But your middle finger is the center of the clock, not the OB. How can the stick be like the hand of a clock if the stick is getting pivoted at some point along the shaft? Does your clock hand spin as it sweeps around the clock face?

- And WTF is this two circle crap anyway? NEWS FLASH > you're still unclear to both the insanely patient PHD and the rest of us schmucks. Telling us there are two circles with zero methodology brings us 0% closer to figuring out how to line up the shot.

- What's SWC's motivation for this?

Well, here's what I've observed: He likes to 'debunk' commonly accepted common sense stuff if he feels it's overrated... stuff like pendulum stroke, fundamentals, etc. He also has made a bunch of little digs about "You geniuses" and the "PHD". Spidey is the guy who doesn't need no book learnin' to get the job done, he has hard-bought pool experience won on the streets! Street-pool-smarts! All you fancy scientists and so-called scholars with your clearly explained and observable and repeatable horseshìt can't shoot as straight our hypothetical high school dropout who knows the Secret CTE Pai Mei Five Finger Death Punch taught to him by the Old Master!

And just think, spidey has thousands of hours of practice with this effective system. I can't believe I haven't spotted him on ESPN by now.

I think he gets off feeling like the clever guy who knows a secret and is not telling. He doesn't want to make you aware of CTE or prove it's legit or defend the value of it. He just wants to make sure you're aware that he knows it, and you never will.

He disguises this simple act of rubbing-it-in-your-face as some sort of socratic teaching method whereby the brightest bulbs will magically deduce the process that he does or does not want to share with us, depending on which post you read.

I think it's funny that hal can explain it to you at the table in 5 minutes and the high school dropout can quintuple his ball pocketing overnight, but swc needed thousands of hours to learn it. He's implying he's a lot thicker than this dropout, which probably wasn't his goal. And of course we're obviously COMPLETE morons for not figuring out what spidey learned much less quickly than the dropout.

You don't need to reply to this one either spidey, I'm not reading any more here... it's a relief to not waste any more time on it.

Good post.

Roger

 

[dr_dave]

I think we should have a DAM vs. CTE competition. You can even setup all the shots. PJ would say that doesn't prove anything, but I always think it does.

Sean, I love ya man. If we ever meet, you'll eat those words and buy me dinner for the lesson.

I'd love to shoot some pool with you some day; and dinner is definitely on me, regardless of who shoots better. Although, I'm sure you will shoot better because you have put in a lot more practice time than I have, and because you probably have more natural talent than I do, and because your younger eyes are probably more keen than mine.

But I think you should use DAM and I should use CTE. Then the results might be interesting. I bet you would be damn good with DAM.

Regards,
Dave