CTE experiment, with civil discussion

[Beer:30]

I give up.

I went and played tonight and used what I think is CTE and played great. So here's the deal, I am happy with where my game is at
..............

I think you may have taken my post the wrong way.

dr_dave and I have a similar conception of how CTE works. In the framework as I understand it and as outlined on dr_dave's page something must be adjusted.

If there is no adjustment then there are several places where miscommunication can happen. The "CTE" people and (for lack of a better description) "those who don't understand" may be working under different definitions or misinterpreted concepts orr there is a lack of framework to put the information that is out there in context.

Spidey talked about shot circles and shifted perspectives. When I questioned him about it I think he was working some sort of Socratic angle in leading me to the solution. It didn't work for me. If these are important to CTE then I am missing important pieces to the puzzle and I either: don't have the right information, am not putting it in the proper context, or am working under incorrect assumptions. All these can lead to an impasse because from both parties perspectives, they are right and the other is wrong.

With my post I was trying to get you and all the other CTE folks to specifically state where you thought the information was wrong or opinion because that could lead indirectly to some of the miscommunication.

Beyond the blanked statement that all of dr_dave's page is bad little specific has been stated. These specifics need to be hammered out so that both sides are effectively speaking the same "language." When I say language I mean that we are all working with the same definitions and assumptions in the proper context. If there is a fundamental miscommunication about CTE this initial dialog needs to be hammered out before there is going to be much forward progress. I'm not trying to be difficult.

When describing something you think is wrong do it in as much detail as you can. In scientific papers, authors go into nauseating detail so that there can be no miscommunication. The less left to assumption the less chance there is for miscommunication. If you don't fully understand something let everyone know but try to explain it as best you can outlining specifically what you are sure of and what you aren't.

My guess is the effective pivot aiming instructors hold the Rosetta stone. After learning how CTE works there is something CTE shooters assume is obvious but isn't to others.

Didn't mean to run you off and your effort is appreciated.

 

[SpiderWebComm]

You read it wrong.

I think it's neither a "psychological crutch" nor a "physical repeatable set of instructions for aiming that works geometrically."

I should say though, that I only met with Hal Houle twice in person. Once was the time in Los Angeles (at Danny K's) when I talked to him some but mostly listened to him instruct others for the afternoon. I was at the table next to him. I listened quite a lot because we had already been talking about his ideas quite a lot on RSB.

The other time was a few years later at Family Billiards in San Francisco. This was shortly before he moved east to PA. That second visit, we talked aiming one-on-one at the table.

We never talked about CTE. We talked essentially about fractional aiming and a few other ideas.

I've also talked to him about aiming several times on the phone, but again mostly about backhand english, etc, never about CTE.

Outside this group, my only exposure to CTE was when I had a meeting in DC about two years ago, and I drove up past Baltimore to Top Hat Billiards to learn CTE from Spidey. We worked through it pretty thoroughly for about 30-40 minutes. Then we spent the afternoon playing 9-ball, straight pool, and banks. Several times during our games we stopped to discuss a pivot or an approach to a shot. I was watching him the whole time.

I had a fun time, and despite my objections Spidey graciously picked up the tab.



We've played on three tables: your triple-shimmed valley bar box, a GC at the Cue Club, and your hideous psychedelic-clothed table. I know I played you both before and after your awakening. You seemed to me to play about the same before and after. We've always been pretty evenly matched, imo.

Come to think of it,

I've played Spidey,
I've played PJ,
I've played You,
I've played Fred A.,
I've played Joey A,
I've played Lou
I've played Scott Lee
I've Played Bob Jewett
I've played Smorgasbored
I've played Tom Simpson

I've gambled with most of you.

And I've got you all clocked ;-)

You're the nicest guy I've ever met playing pool. Super gentleman. I have you clocked too

 

[lfigueroa]

So you go your way. I will go mine. If someday we ever do happen to find time to play some then I will happily donate some to you playing one pocket and you can then use it forever to tell everyone how my "aiming system" didn't help me to beat you.

As it stands however I am 1:0 against you for the only time we matched up in that rinky dink RSB event and I was consciously using "the system".

More than consciously, I was willfully and deliberately and overtly using the aiming system that you so derided me for using in the months prior.

lol. Good grief, man. What was that:

a 1pocket race to two, almost 10 years ago, when you frammed the balls a couple of times and came out smelling like a rose?

And you're still crowing about it?! THAT, is pretty pathetic.

Lou Figueroa
lol
still chuckling
about it

 

[lfigueroa]

hit da wrong button :-o

 

[Elephant Man]

How bout them Cowboys...?

 

[justadub]

And this, my friends, is the thread that is a "civil" discussion.

 

[Elephant Man]

And this, my friends, is the thread that is a "civil" discussion.

I guess everyone lost interest now that the DVD is in pre-production. One thing I know is that Dr. Dave will not be happy when he finds out that 6 o'clock changes...

 

[JB Cases]

hoho

lol. Good grief, man. What was that:

a 1pocket race to two, almost 10 years ago, when you frammed the balls a couple of times and came out smelling like a rose?

And you're still crowing about it?! THAT, is pretty pathetic.

Lou Figueroa
lol
still chuckling
about it

Not only crowing about it I have it framed on my wall. That victory over you means more to me than all the trophies and money I have ever won.

I think about it at least once a day. Whenever I play one pocket against a strong player I always psyche myself up with the thought that if I could beat Lou then I can beat anyone.

And yes I frammed the hell out the rack - frankly using Hal's system I knew I could make balls but I was completely clear that I didn't have even a fraction of your one pocket knowledge. So I just tried to get lucky and open up the balls so I could shoot at them.

I am sure that if the set had been longer you would have beaten me easily, and I am sure that if we play again you will beat me, maybe not so easily but I have faith in you that you still play way better than I do.

So I will just hold onto my little victory as long as I can and savor it.

People like me do that you know.

 

[JB Cases]

I think you may have taken my post the wrong way.

dr_dave and I have a similar conception of how CTE works. In the framework as I understand it and as outlined on dr_dave's page something must be adjusted.

If there is no adjustment then there are several places where miscommunication can happen. The "CTE" people and (for lack of a better description) "those who don't understand" may be working under different definitions or misinterpreted concepts orr there is a lack of framework to put the information that is out there in context.

Spidey talked about shot circles and shifted perspectives. When I questioned him about it I think he was working some sort of Socratic angle in leading me to the solution. It didn't work for me. If these are important to CTE then I am missing important pieces to the puzzle and I either: don't have the right information, am not putting it in the proper context, or am working under incorrect assumptions. All these can lead to an impasse because from both parties perspectives, they are right and the other is wrong.

With my post I was trying to get you and all the other CTE folks to specifically state where you thought the information was wrong or opinion because that could lead indirectly to some of the miscommunication.

Beyond the blanked statement that all of dr_dave's page is bad little specific has been stated. These specifics need to be hammered out so that both sides are effectively speaking the same "language." When I say language I mean that we are all working with the same definitions and assumptions in the proper context. If there is a fundamental miscommunication about CTE this initial dialog needs to be hammered out before there is going to be much forward progress. I'm not trying to be difficult.

When describing something you think is wrong do it in as much detail as you can. In scientific papers, authors go into nauseating detail so that there can be no miscommunication. The less left to assumption the less chance there is for miscommunication. If you don't fully understand something let everyone know but try to explain it as best you can outlining specifically what you are sure of and what you aren't.

My guess is the effective pivot aiming instructors hold the Rosetta stone. After learning how CTE works there is something CTE shooters assume is obvious but isn't to others.

Didn't mean to run you off and your effort is appreciated.

And this is my whole point Mike. Instead of having a bunch of opinions on the website as to how people "think" it works why not just have Dr. Dave's own understanding of how it works, with videos, and what he thinks.

Because everything else just confuses the readers. Until there is something that fills in the blanks having a mishmash of opinions and diagrams from many sources only serves to cloud the issue further.

I am in full agreement with you about how scientific papers are written. So with that in mind I honestly feel that Dave Alciatore should take down the CTE section and wait until he has proper data to put up.

Just my opinion of course. I personally don't care any more because as I said, I am happy with what I can do and where my game is at.

 

[enzo]

i am ardently againt aiming systems, and one of the reasons is that if you use one they seem to be predicated on pocket size (ie since there is some error there, they can work). since cut angles are infinitelty variable, a discrete system simply can not guide you to the center of the pocket every time. so the point is, your system will be say aiming you to the left side of the pocket. well, you dont want that, you want an equal amount of buffer present on both sides..... the only "system" that can take you to center pocket everytime, ideally anyway, is a feel system. this is why we practice, to get our feel system to take us as close to center pocket as possible. again, the point here is that if you do use a system, you could be potentially robbing yourself of a center pocket aiming point... so, now if you dont shoot straight on your shot, you dont have as much buffer as you may have had with a feel system. discete systems cant guide you to center pocket everytime, so if you are using one correctly you ARE aiming your shots at something other than center pocket many times, and thus decreasing your accuracy.

 

[Koop]

The title of this thread is an oxymoron.

 

[dr_dave]

... why not just have Dr. Dave's own understanding of how it works, with videos, and what he thinks.

I have plenty (too much, in many people's opinions) of what I think on my CTE resource page. I also had a link to the demonstration video from eezbank, but he recently removed his video from YouTube. Fortunately, the complete and detailed procedure that eezbank demonstrated in the video is still on my resource page. This procedure is very easy to follow.

I think the descriptions and resources on my page summarize quite well how various versions of CTE work, especially with my links to Spidey's stuff. I also make it clear when and why align-and-pivot procedures like CTE don't work. I think this is useful information to help people use CTE more effectively.

I have no interest in creating my own CTE video (because "my list of things that I want to do" is already far too long), but I would be happy to post or link to any good CTE video if it clearly demonstrates the system and how it works. I don't want to see a video of somebody just making a bunch of shots, claiming they are using CTE ... that proves nothing. The video should actually explain and illustrate all of the steps and clearly demonstrate how each step is carried out for a variety of shots, explaining what changes as distances and the necessary cut angle changes. I personally don't need to see such a video, but it seems like such a video would be appreciated by others. I wish CTE people would post something like this. It would certainly clear up a lot of confusion created by these debates. Maybe when Stan finishes his DVD he can post a sample clip that includes the basics of the system with clear demonstrations, without giving away all of the secrets on his DVD.

Regards,
Dave

 

[LAMas]

Dr._Dave
You wrote:
"...I have no interest in creating my own CTE video (because "my list of things that I want to do" is already far too long),..."

Does this imply that you understand and can show how CTE can work (if you weren't so busy) and that you could/can create such a DVD?

 

[Roger Long]

Fortunately, the complete and detailed procedure that eezbank demonstrated in the video is still on my resource page. This procedure is very easy to follow.

But is this "very easy to follow" procedure a true representation of CTE? I tried to follow eezbank's video instructions, AND your detailed instructions, and ended up with poor results.:frown:

Maybe I just don't understand simple language?

Roger

 

[cookie man]

Cookie:

I said I now know all I NEED to know about CTE - and I'll stick by that - but I didn't say I know all I WANT to know.

If you're referring to Stan's video, I'm in agreement with you. I plan to buy his video as soon as it becomes available. My own interpretation of CTE may be wrong, and I'd like to check it against someone who really knows the truth. I think Stan is the man who can best explain that truth, and I'm sure he will ask a fair price for his video.

Now if you're asking yourself why I am willing to put up money to purchase Stan's video, but I am not willing to put up money for a "webinar" from someone else, that's simple...I trust Stan. :smile:

Roger

I don't blame you Roger. Knowing the DVD is coming I would wait too.

 

[cookie man]

Hey John --

I ain't in no stinkin camp!

Props to Mike, he as at least tried to work with and learn CTE. Don't give up Mike it is worth it.

 

[ThePoliteSniper]

i am ardently againt aiming systems, and one of the reasons is that if you use one they seem to be predicated on pocket size (ie since there is some error there, they can work). since cut angles are infinitelty variable, a discrete system simply can not guide you to the center of the pocket every time. so the point is, your system will be say aiming you to the left side of the pocket. well, you dont want that, you want an equal amount of buffer present on both sides..... the only "system" that can take you to center pocket everytime, ideally anyway, is a feel system. this is why we practice, to get our feel system to take us as close to center pocket as possible. again, the point here is that if you do use a system, you could be potentially robbing yourself of a center pocket aiming point... so, now if you dont shoot straight on your shot, you dont have as much buffer as you may have had with a feel system. discete systems cant guide you to center pocket everytime, so if you are using one correctly you ARE aiming your shots at something other than center pocket many times, and thus decreasing your accuracy.

Well I guess the magick is again in the pivot, because with the pivot you'll potentially get an infinite number of aiming lines. But how you get there is the mystery that will be revealed by stan in his video.

But even if this is true, this is still a pivot system. When it comes to potting balls I always like to take a look at snooker pros, because they are real potting machines. How do they aim. I have seen an instructional video with steve davis. Here is the interesting part. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BK382Z8dIXc
He says there are basically 5 angles: full ball, three quarter ball, half ball, quarter ball and fine cut. And if a shot is just thicker than say a three quarter ball, you have to judge how much thicker you need to aim. You don't aim at a spot on the object ball. Instead "you are putting one disc onto another disc, which is easier to visualize". The important part is, there is no pivot. You will never see a snooker pro pivot. I watched Neil in the finals, when he needed to pot a longish pink under pressure. He stood behind the pink and looked down the line into the center of the pocket, then went behind the cueball, got down into the aiming line without any pivot and shot the pink into the center of the pocket. No secrets there. Just good habits, judgement and technique.
But on a 9 foot table with pockets twice as big you need secret systems that will cost you 30$.

 

[dr_dave]

Dr._Dave
You wrote:
"...I have no interest in creating my own CTE video (because "my list of things that I want to do" is already far too long),..."

Does this imply that you understand and can show how CTE can work (if you weren't so busy) and that you could/can create such a DVD?:confused

I was referring to a simple and short online video (like the one eezbank had posted), not a full DVD. I could certainly post a video like that showing how CTE works. I could also show how and when it doesn't work if you don't make conscious or sub-conscious adjustments when necessary. And I could easily show how the adjustments can result in pocketing a wide range of shots.

I hope Stan decides to post a sample clip from his DVD that makes everything clear. If not, I will consider doing a short online video in the future; although, I'm not a proponent of CTE, so I'm probably not the best person to post such a video.

Regards,
Dave

 

[dr_dave]

But is this "very easy to follow" procedure a true representation of CTE?

The procedure eezbank demonstrated is one version of CTE (taught to him by Hal Houle). The other common CTE version (also from Hal Houle), as listed on Spidey's blog, involves alignment along a line parallel to the center-to-edge line. Both of these procedures are summarized on my CTE resource page, along with links to Spidey's blog for more info for the second version. Stan's version (PRO ONE) is apparently based on the second CTE version, but I have not seen a written description of how PRO ONE is different. Hopefully, Stan's video will make this clear, so it can be discussed openly.

I tried to follow eezbank's video instructions, AND your detailed instructions, and ended up with poor results.:frown:

Your initial alignment or your effective pivot length must be off for the shots you are missing (see my CTE resource page for more info).

Regards,
Dave

 

[Roger Long]

The procedure eezbank demonstrated is one version of CTE (taught to him by Hal Houle). The other common CTE version (also from Hal Houle), as listed on Spidey's blog, involves alignment along a line parallel to the center-to-edge line. Both of these procedures are summarized on my CTE resource page, along with links to Spidey's blog for more info for the second version. Stan's version (PRO ONE) is apparently based on the second CTE version, but I have not seen a written description of how PRO ONE is different. Hopefully, Stan's video will make this clear, so it can be discussed openly.

Your initial alignment or your effective pivot length must be off for the shots you are missing (see my CTE resource page for more info).

Regards,
Dave

Thank you for that Dave, but I don't think you fully understood my question.

As I posted earlier, I recently worked with CTE on my own until I now feel that I have a basic understanding as to how it works. Prior to that, however, I viewed eezbank's video, and read your instructions, and couldn't grasp the right concept from either of them, so I don't know how you could possibly call those "very easy" instructions. Now you're telling me that my "initial alignment" or my "effective pivot length" must be off, which just bolsters the argument that CTE is NOT an easy system to teach or to learn. (Or maybe bolsters the argument that I am just plain stupid!)

Civilly,
Roger