Thin Cut Shots

[incognito]

Does lowering the butt of your cue to the point where you're hitting slightly up on the cue ball increase accuracy on thin cut shots?

I was told by a pretty strong player that this technique improves accuracy on these types of shots and on follow shots in general basically because the cue ball is rolling from the get go and not sliding as it would be with a level cue or with the butt of the cue being slightly elevated.

 

[Dudley]

My take on this advice would be that this prohibits the ball from curving after it is struck. If you are jacked up you might have a slight bowling ball effect on the cue ball that you are unaware of, making it much harder to be accurate.

just a thought.....

Dud

 

[incognito]

My take on this advice would be that this prohibits the ball from curving after it is struck. If you are jacked up you might have a slight bowling ball effect on the cue ball that you are unaware of, making it much harder to be accurate.

just a thought.....

Dud

That's very similar to what he told me. Lowering the butt of your cue prevents this effect. Thanks!

 

[greyghost]

the answer is yes

 

[Tramp Steamer]

In answer to your question, incognito, I would say no it does not. However, you must remember that pool is a mind set (Grady's words) and therefore what works for someone else may not work for you. Thin cuts are shot with differing degrees of cue elevation, depending upon the shot required. Practice cuts with the butt up, down, and everywhere in between.

 

[Andrew Manning]

Does lowering the butt of your cue to the point where you're hitting slightly up on the cue ball increase accuracy on thin cut shots?

This is not actually possible on most shots, because the rail prevents the butt from getting that low.

I was told by a pretty strong player that this technique improves accuracy on these types of shots and on follow shots in general basically because the cue ball is rolling from the get go and not sliding as it would be with a level cue or with the butt of the cue being slightly elevated.

Another instance of a pretty strong player not actually know what's going on when they play the game. A level cue will produce a rolling CB if you hit with very high english. Even a slight elevation will do this, no problem.

To hit these shots accurately, line up accurately and stroke straight. It's that simple.

-Andrew

 

[incognito]

However, you must remember that pool is a mind set (Grady's words) and therefore what works for someone else may not work for you.

Thanks for the reply. I've watched a lot of accu-stats videos and although I enjoy Grady Mathews commentary very much, I find that he is usually not a reliable source of accurate information. He does have some great kicking systems, though.

 

[Cdryden]

What that player was referring to is the dreaded "skid" effect you sometimes get when the cue ball is forced to slide a bit before the forward spin takes hold. During this momentary skid is when the cue ball is allowed to stray from its intended path.
The ability to hit up on the ball is severely limited by various things like table lay, balls in the way and rails. That being said on occasion it is possible to do what he is saying but the desired effect is minimal. Not to say it isn't worth the effort.
My opinion is rather than spending allot of time perfecting that technique, I would rather spend my time perfecting a true level stroke and playing shape so as to avoid the razor thin cuts! But even the pro's leave themselves that way every now and then.
Good luck on your endeavors.
CD

 

[Dudley]

What that player was referring to is the dreaded "skid" effect you sometimes get when the cue ball is forced to slide a bit before the forward spin takes hold. During this momentary skid is when the cue ball is allowed to stray from its intended path.
The ability to hit up on the ball is severely limited by various things like table lay, balls in the way and rails. That being said on occasion it is possible to do what he is saying but the desired effect is minimal. Not to say it isn't worth the effort.
My opinion is rather than spending allot of time perfecting that technique, I would rather spend my time perfecting a true level stroke and playing shape so as to avoid the razor thin cuts! But even the pro's leave themselves that way every now and then.
Good luck on your endeavors.
CD

CD,

During the momentary skid you describe what would cause the ball to stray from its path?

I think the advice was meant to have the op hit the ball as close to level as possible to eliminate curve not neccesarily hit upwards on the cue ball. Sometimes you exaggerate a little when communicating something so that people remember your point.

I could be wrong, everyone has their own perspective..... Sometimes it doesn't matter if it matches science as long is it works.

Dud

 

[incognito]

What that player was referring to is the dreaded "skid" effect you sometimes get when the cue ball is forced to slide a bit before the forward spin takes hold. During this momentary skid is when the cue ball is allowed to stray from its intended path.
The ability to hit up on the ball is severely limited by various things like table lay, balls in the way and rails. That being said on occasion it is possible to do what he is saying but the desired effect is minimal. Not to say it isn't worth the effort.
My opinion is rather than spending allot of time perfecting that technique, I would rather spend my time perfecting a true level stroke and playing shape so as to avoid the razor thin cuts! But even the pro's leave themselves that way every now and then.
Good luck on your endeavors.
CD

I think you're right. That slight skid is magnified on a long, thin cut shot, so when you're cutting balls real thin, it makes a pretty big difference. I won an 8-ball tournament by using this technique on a thin cut shot in a critical game. I had 1 stripe left and my opponent was on the 8, and the 8 was hanging on the pocket.

 

[Cdryden]

CD,

During the momentary skid you describe what would cause the ball to stray from its path?







Dud

Simple answer; friction.

Longer answer;
I would say that the reason it strays from its original path is the fact that it is skidding and not rolling. The forward rolling motion allows the cue ball to track, the skidding cue ball is not tracking correctly because it is fighting the natural roll of the cue ball.
Think of it like the knuckle ball of pro pitchers. Since the knuckle ball has no spin, or very little spin it does not follow a consistent trajectory. Another example would be the rifling of a gun. the rifling gives the bullet spin so it follows a straight path better.

 

[Johnnyt]

I use a little inside on thin cut shots where the QB is under 5' away. Steve Cook showed me that. Most players don't want to use any side-spin when aiming for a very thin hit, but sometimes you have to. Johnnyt

 

[Dudley]

Simple answer; friction.

Longer answer;
I would say that the reason it strays from its original path is the fact that it is skidding and not rolling. The forward rolling motion allows the cue ball to track, the skidding cue ball is not tracking correctly because it is fighting the natural roll of the cue ball.
Think of it like the knuckle ball of pro pitchers. Since the knuckle ball has no spin, or very little spin it does not follow a consistent trajectory. Another example would be the rifling of a gun. the rifling gives the bullet spin so it follows a straight path better.

I only ask because this goes against what I've been told by golf players who play on 6X12's that roll worse than anything. They have said if you hit a ball low center (sliding for as long as possible) it will track straighter then if you just roll the ball center ball.

I have no strong opinion either way just fascinated by the conflicting explanations.

Dud

 

[Bob Jewett]

Does lowering the butt of your cue to the point where you're hitting slightly up on the cue ball increase accuracy on thin cut shots?

I was told by a pretty strong player that this technique improves accuracy on these types of shots and on follow shots in general basically because the cue ball is rolling from the get go and not sliding as it would be with a level cue or with the butt of the cue being slightly elevated.

As was pointed out above, it is impossible on many shots and nearly impossible on all shots to shoot up on the cue ball. If you look carefully at players who shoot with "level" cue sticks, you will see that they actually have significant elevation.

As for getting the cue ball rolling from the start, you have to hit the ball at about 70% of its height to accomplish this, and this has relatively little to do with elevation. If you use a stripe as the cue ball and put the stripe like a belt, you have to hit with your tip part way into the white cap (which leaves the actual tip contact point slightly into the stripe).

Some posters above seem to think that the cue ball has only two phases -- sliding and rolling. Actually the cue ball transitions continuously and smoothly from one to the other. If you start the cue ball out with 0% follow, it will have 1% and then 2% and then 3% and so on until it is rolling smoothly on the cloth.

If anyone is interested in the technical details, they are explained thoroughly in Dr. Dave's book.

 

[Cdryden]

I only ask because this goes against what I've been told by golf players who play on 6X12's that roll worse than anything. They have said if you hit a ball low center (sliding for as long as possible) it will track straighter then if you just roll the ball center ball.

I have no strong opinion either way just fascinated by the conflicting explanations.

Dud

Well, as I said before this is my opinion. And I could be wrong, but I base my theory on physics. Try this, line up 10 balls across the table between the side pockets. Put the cue ball along the first diamond. Line up a straight in shot to either corner. Now shot the first 10 balls with low english, hitting hard enough to make the Cue ball skid until the moment of impact. Note how many balls you make. Then try the same thing using high english. Your speed should be considerably less since you dont want the cue ball to be skidding at the moment of impact.
Give me a honest effort and let me know how many of each you made.
I have found through my own experience that I am less accurate when shooting the low english shots. Thats not to say that you cant make all 10 either way.

But it is interesting on the many different opinions on the matter. What is your personal belief?

 

[Bob Jewett]

I only ask because this goes against what I've been told by golf players who play on 6X12's that roll worse than anything. They have said if you hit a ball low center (sliding for as long as possible) it will track straighter then if you just roll the ball center ball. ...

On bad equipment this technique, sometimes called drag draw, is a good way to
keep the table from rolling off when you have to land softly on the object ball. You can shoot hard and land softly. On good equipment, you don't need this technique as much, and you may want to avoid it because draw accentuates the swerve that you will get from any unintended side spin.

 

[Cdryden]

On bad equipment this technique, sometimes called drag draw, is a good way to
keep the table from rolling off when you have to land softly on the object ball. You can shoot hard and land softly. On good equipment, you don't need this technique as much, and you may want to avoid it because draw accentuates the swerve that you will get from any unintended side spin.

Good point Bob.

 

[CreeDo]

Film the guy when he thinks he's shooting upward. He prolly is shooting level. As others have pointed out, all players shoot slightly down on the ball to accomodate the rail. I remember when I was first learning, and the room owner was trying to help me level out my cue... I was swearing that I was pointing upwards at the ball. In reality I just "level" (which is still angled downward a hair compared to true geometric level).

 

[Dudley]

Well, as I said before this is my opinion. And I could be wrong, but I base my theory on physics. Try this, line up 10 balls across the table between the side pockets. Put the cue ball along the first diamond. Line up a straight in shot to either corner. Now shot the first 10 balls with low english, hitting hard enough to make the Cue ball skid until the moment of impact. Note how many balls you make. Then try the same thing using high english. Your speed should be considerably less since you dont want the cue ball to be skidding at the moment of impact.
Give me a honest effort and let me know how many of each you made.
I have found through my own experience that I am less accurate when shooting the low english shots. Thats not to say that you cant make all 10 either way.

But it is interesting on the many different opinions on the matter. What is your personal belief?

Difficulty being accurate with soft low english is different then the cue ball having a knuckle ball effect.
As I said in my second post on the subject I beleive the ball can curve (with unwanted side english) but I don't believe if you hit the ball level in the center with low english that it will do anything other than go in a straight line. (this is not an easy shot to execute) It seems to me you are talking about difficulty in repeating this type of stroke accurately.

Dud

 

[Dudley]

On bad equipment this technique, sometimes called drag draw, is a good way to
keep the table from rolling off when you have to land softly on the object ball. You can shoot hard and land softly. On good equipment, you don't need this technique as much, and you may want to avoid it because draw accentuates the swerve that you will get from any unintended side spin.

Well said Bob,

this matches what I've been told and thought on the subject.

Dudley

Based on this video I think you are an expert on the subject:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GaSKh1PSqok