Jay Helfert, re: Gary Spaeth

[freddy the beard]

Sherm, Sherm

You're right about Gary! I staked him for many years and he just about ruined bank pool, winning every tournament he entered in about a 10 year period. He beat all the greats except he never played Eddie Taylor even though Eddie was past him prime before Gary reached his. He played Bugs several times with Bugs breaking even in games on his best match and Gary won all the others. He got 8-7 from Bugs playing one-pocket and won at that also and frankly I don't think the ball spot came into play much. He used to spot Shannon Daulton 9-7 & breaks + Shannon's fouls didn't count against him. Gary was one of the most under-rated all around players ever. In 9-ball tournaments he beat Buddy Hall 6 out of 7 times they played while I was staking him. And you should know the Airway Billiard player field. Gary won the monday tournament there 12 times in a row and about half the times he entered. That doesn't sound like much until you understand the dynamics of that tournament. There was always at least a dozen players who were subject to run a set on you there. I know that staking Gary bought my ex wife a house.

Sherm, that was clever how you phrased that, "breaking even in games on his best match," re Bugs. I was present at that "best match" of course, that was at the tournament where Gary beat me in the 2 hole, 23 to 21 for the championship. That was probably the toughest 32 player bank field ever assembled, except for Bugs who was in jail at the time. Bugs got out of jail the morning of the finals. Gary could have won the Cubs Baseball franchise if he could have beaten Bugs that night.

I must defend my home boy, Bugs. Gary was a great player, and I really liked the kid, but I believe Bugs was a better banker, especially for giant money. Just like I believe that Eddie Taylor was a better banker than Bugs, Cannonball, and Youngblood Washington. In his prime Taylor spotted them all 9 to 8 or 8 to 7. However, with Eddie Taylor on the way out due to cataracts, from about 1968 until 1990 no human had a prayer playing Bugs bank pool.
Another tidbit, aside from when Bugs went to Calif. in the late 60s and beat Marvin Henderson and Cannonball Lefty Chapman, he didnt get to play anybody even again for that 20+ year stretch. (Incardona played him even in Pittsburg but didnt know who he was) Closest to that was when after Donnie Anderson won a big bank tourn in Ohio, Bugs gave him 9 to 8 and spanked him after the finals.

I'll concede the rest of the field to Gary. As I said, I really liked the kid. I knew him from when he was little, and he was always respectful to me, and considerate enough to not embarass me by asking me to play.

Beard

 

[Dead Crab]

For those unaware, here is a link to video of a 1992 matchup between Spaeth and Rucker:

http://www.tubebilliards.com/bank-pool-challenge-match-gary-spaeth-vs-bugs-rucker/

 

[jay helfert]

Sherm, that was clever how you phrased that, "breaking even in games on his best match," re Bugs. I was present at that "best match" of course, that was at the tournament where Gary beat me in the 2 hole, 23 to 21 for the championship. That was probably the toughest 32 player bank field ever assembled, except for Bugs who was in jail at the time. Bugs got out of jail the morning of the finals. Gary could have won the Cubs Baseball franchise if he could have beaten Bugs that night.

I must defend my home boy, Bugs. Gary was a great player, and I really liked the kid, but I believe Bugs was a better banker, especially for giant money. Just like I believe that Eddie Taylor was a better banker than Bugs, Cannonball, and Youngblood Washington. In his prime Taylor spotted them all 9 to 8 or 8 to 7. However, with Eddie Taylor on the way out due to cataracts, from about 1968 until 1990 no human had a prayer playing Bugs bank pool.
Another tidbit, aside from when Bugs went to Calif. in the late 60s and beat Marvin Henderson and Cannonball Lefty Chapman, he didnt get to play anybody even again for that 20+ year stretch. (Incardona played him even in Pittsburg but didnt know who he was) Closest to that was when after Donnie Anderson won a big bank tourn in Ohio, Bugs gave him 9 to 8 and spanked him after the finals.

I'll concede the rest of the field to Gary. As I said, I really liked the kid. I knew him from when he was little, and he was always respectful to me, and considerate enough to not embarass me by asking me to play.

Beard

Thanks for chiming in Freddie. These young(er) guys never saw Taylor or Bugs in their prime, so they don't know what they missed. I watched Eddie play several times and it was other worldly to me at the time how he could just make bank after bank like they were hangers. Short rail, long rail, it made no difference. They split the wicket! And both he and Bugs whacked them in at warp speed!

Maybe one of the biggest differences I see today is that even the best bankers have their weak moments where they miss a few. That was not the case with Taylor and Bugs. They were always "on" and never had weak moments. A weak moment for them was to miss one ball. Every turn at the table was liable to be the last of the game. They kept the pressure on from start to finish. If you had a weak moment, you were toast!

I never saw Youngblood Washington play but I heard a lot about him. He must have been one great pool player. Cannonball banked just like Taylor and Bugs, but I don't think he could hold up quite as good for the cash. He was an amazing practice player, banking eights, nines and tens like it was nothing. I did play the other Youngblood, James Brown, who was one of the best in his day. He could play right there with Fargo and Truman, but I make him a slight dog. At 8-7 Youngblood would have the best of it though. Blood gave me 5-4 in L.A. at the Den and we played all day. Probably the best I ever played and I still lost, maybe four games at twenty a game.

I was proud of myself in losing that day. I held my own against one of the top Bankers in the country. That's when I knew I could really play this game. I had learned well from Joe Burns and Lou Todoroff, and watching Eddie Taylor. I was ready for anyone, and beat some pretty good players over the years. Thanks again. You showed me that you could be a strong Bank Pool player, even if you weren't a top player at other games.

 

[brandoncook26]

How would the best of today compare with Bugs, Spaeth, and Taylor? I am thinking of probably Brian Gregg, Brumback and Daulton. I know Brian was mentored by Bugs.

Would they need a ball or more from the greats? Just trying to get a feeling of how much higher the speed of these three were comparing it to people I have seen.

 

[DawgAndy]

I have to think Brumbeck had played Gary a lot, i might be wrong though. I remember Gary sleeping in the chairs at Starchers with his case on his lap waitng to play or action whichever. I really liked him, nice guy

 

[cuesmith]

Sherm, that was clever how you phrased that, "breaking even in games on his best match," re Bugs. I was present at that "best match" of course, that was at the tournament where Gary beat me in the 2 hole, 23 to 21 for the championship. That was probably the toughest 32 player bank field ever assembled, except for Bugs who was in jail at the time. Bugs got out of jail the morning of the finals. Gary could have won the Cubs Baseball franchise if he could have beaten Bugs that night.

I must defend my home boy, Bugs. Gary was a great player, and I really liked the kid, but I believe Bugs was a better banker, especially for giant money. Just like I believe that Eddie Taylor was a better banker than Bugs, Cannonball, and Youngblood Washington. In his prime Taylor spotted them all 9 to 8 or 8 to 7. However, with Eddie Taylor on the way out due to cataracts, from about 1968 until 1990 no human had a prayer playing Bugs bank pool.
Another tidbit, aside from when Bugs went to Calif. in the late 60s and beat Marvin Henderson and Cannonball Lefty Chapman, he didnt get to play anybody even again for that 20+ year stretch. (Incardona played him even in Pittsburg but didnt know who he was) Closest to that was when after Donnie Anderson won a big bank tourn in Ohio, Bugs gave him 9 to 8 and spanked him after the finals.

I'll concede the rest of the field to Gary. As I said, I really liked the kid. I knew him from when he was little, and he was always respectful to me, and considerate enough to not embarass me by asking me to play.

Beard

Freddy, Freddy... Were really not too far apart. We both loved and respected both players. I wasn't trying to be "clever" , just telling the facts as I remember them. The match where they came up even on games, Bugs did win $1000. I took Gary to Chicago on short money, feeling we could make a score there. The night we arrived, the night before the tourney where you were in the finals with Gary, we went to the Chicago Billiards Cafe looking for action. Piggy Banks came up and asked Gary to play asking for 8-7. Gary gave him the spot and proceded to win 9 in a row for $100, when Piggy's stakehorse pulled up. Piggy pleaded with his stakehorse to keep him in the box. He said Gary was "spell banking", a term Gary and I laughed about often over the years. Piggys Stakehorse said "I believe you're right, but we just don't know how long this spell is going to last!" We felt pretty good, we'd just tripled our bankroll. The next day the bank tournament started and there was no time for action. As you know Gary went through the field of that tournament with hardly anyone getting close. You did best against him in the finals but I think your "gamesmanship" had him a little flustered. I wanted to choke you at the time but learned to appreciate your style and character and in time got to really like you. Just as the finals were over Bugs walked into the room. As Jay mentioned earlier, when Bugs came into the room there was a kind of hush came over the place. It was apparent that Bugs came to play Gary and we wouldn't have had it any other way. There was electricity in the air! Greg Sullivan, much before the Diamond days, came up to Gary and I and asked if he could have part of the action. I was at first sort of against it but Gary had been friends with Greg for a while so we let him in. At this point I had just about $1500 after giving Gary his share to "lock up". He had rent & bills overdue at home and could not afford to lose what he'd won. Greg put up $1000. Gary and Bugs started playing a race to 4 for $1000. Gary won the first set easily 4-1. Bug's camp immediately started yelling to jack the bet. They wanted to play another for $2000. Bug's stakehorse opened what looked like an old doctors bag full of money but I don't think he was from Wrigley Field. Greg wanted to jack it also. I held out and insisted they play another for $1000. It was a matter of "money management" I knew if we played for $2000 and lost the first set, we were done! We wouldn't have another $2000 in reserve to continue playing. But Greg and the crowd talked me into "going for it". Greg said we can turn "tooth picks into a forrest"! Needless to say the set came down to hill, hill and the last ball on the table. Gary and Bugs volleyed safeties back and forth with unbelievable precision until Gary left Bugs endrail to endrail both balls frozen and Bugs made the most amazing straight back, for the cash I've ever seen. He played it strictly offensively and had he missed, he's have probably sold out an easy bank to Gary, but he drilled it! And we were done. Actually I mis-stated the part about them coming up even in games, Gary actually won more games in the 2 sets, but Bugs took down the cash and we couldn't ask them to drop back down to $1000 a set. That just wasn't done! They played 3 more times over the years. Once was one-pocket with Bugs spotting Gary 8-7 in my poolroom in Cincinnati. Gary really unloaded on him there in front of his home crowd and I don't think the spot really came into play. They played banks twice more. Gary won one game the first time but Bug's diabetes was acting up and he had to quit. We didn't want to take advantage of his health problem anyway and it was obvious that he wasn't right that day. He came back to Cincinnati and played Gary some $400 a game full rack banks again at Beechmont where Gary was again the winner. I will acknowledge that Bugs was about 15 years older than Gary and was past his prime by this time. But Gary hadn't really hit his prime until shortly before his death. He was playing the best pool of his life the last year of his life, which I'd like to think was partly because of my influence. I'd taught Gary to be more patient and he also cleaned up his lifestyle quite a bit because he knew I wouldn't tolerate a lot of the habits he had as a youth. There is no doubt in my mind that had he lived, he'd by now have been a multiple winner of the "master of the table" award at the DCC. I don't think there is anyone but Efren (and maybe Shannon) who had his ability to play all 3 of the main games at the Derby! It's a good thing he didn't have to play 14.1 though, that was Gary's weakest game! He just never like it.

 

[cuesmith]

Sherm, that was clever how you phrased that, "breaking even in games on his best match," re Bugs. I was present at that "best match" of course, that was at the tournament where Gary beat me in the 2 hole, 23 to 21 for the championship. That was probably the toughest 32 player bank field ever assembled, except for Bugs who was in jail at the time. Bugs got out of jail the morning of the finals. Gary could have won the Cubs Baseball franchise if he could have beaten Bugs that night.

I must defend my home boy, Bugs. Gary was a great player, and I really liked the kid, but I believe Bugs was a better banker, especially for giant money. Just like I believe that Eddie Taylor was a better banker than Bugs, Cannonball, and Youngblood Washington. In his prime Taylor spotted them all 9 to 8 or 8 to 7. However, with Eddie Taylor on the way out due to cataracts, from about 1968 until 1990 no human had a prayer playing Bugs bank pool.
Another tidbit, aside from when Bugs went to Calif. in the late 60s and beat Marvin Henderson and Cannonball Lefty Chapman, he didnt get to play anybody even again for that 20+ year stretch. (Incardona played him even in Pittsburg but didnt know who he was) Closest to that was when after Donnie Anderson won a big bank tourn in Ohio, Bugs gave him 9 to 8 and spanked him after the finals.

I'll concede the rest of the field to Gary. As I said, I really liked the kid. I knew him from when he was little, and he was always respectful to me, and considerate enough to not embarass me by asking me to play.

Beard

How would the best of today compare with Bugs, Spaeth, and Taylor? I am thinking of probably Brian Gregg, Brumback and Daulton. I know Brian was mentored by Bugs.

Would they need a ball or more from the greats? Just trying to get a feeling of how much higher the speed of these three were comparing it to people I have seen.

That's a "slippery slope" trying to compare players from different times. Like the old "Muhammed Ali vs Joe Louis" debate. I know that Gary had a reverence towards both Eddie Taylor and Bugs who he felt were the best bankers of all time. He was in awe of both of them when they were in their prime. I'm afraid I wasn't around the inside of the pool world then. I didn't really get involved in the until about '82 when Gary got home from his "time out" and we met. Of the bankers today, I'd put Brumbach & Miller about even depending on who's been playing and Shannon about a half a ball under them. Brian Gregg is something different. I don't think he's a quite as good of a "bank pool player" but he plays the ring game format very well where momentum is such a factor and safety play is out the window. Mark Jarvis used to be a force to be reconned with, but well, I won't go there. Danny Harriman plays the game well and could probably be a top banker if he put his mind to it. Mark Tadd was at one time in the stratisphere but I haven't seen him play in years. Glen "Piggy Banks" Rogers is among the best even though he actually works for a living, which is extremely rare for any top pool player. There used to be a black player from Chicago "Howard the coward" (I think I have that right) who had spells of banking pretty sporty, but I heard he's gone now. Maybe Freddy can elaborate. Well I'm done rambling for now, someone elses turn!

 

[vagabond]

You're right about Gary! I staked him for many Gary was one of the most under-rated all around players ever. In 9-ball tournaments he beat Buddy Hall ..... I know that staking Gary bought my ex wife a house.

Not me.Besides banks and one pocket I thought he was an excellant 9 ball player.

By the way, who was the steak horse for Gary when he went on road to Germany and few European contries in 1990? I don`t think that many on this board know about Gary`s road trip to Europe.

 

[01rkclassic]

Not me.Besides banks and one pocket I thought he was an excellant 9 ball player.

By the way, who was the steak horse for Gary when he went on road to Germany and few European contries in 1990? I don`t think that many on this board know about Gary`s road trip to Europe.

Yes that was a trip,he always wore his shirt's untucked and when his shirt touched a ball they called a foul,pissed Gary off so much he stripped to the waist and beat them into submission!

Thanks Jay,Sherm and Freddy for the memories of Gary,he was a fun loving guy that played top speed pool that was taken to early,he is greatly missed by many.

 

[Tom In Cincy]

Gary's stake horse on the Germany/Europe trip was Dave Meyerson. Dave and I played a lot in the Cincinnati area. I haven't spoke to Dave since the late 90s. Dave, as well as Gary, was mentioned in Tony Annigoni's Road trip book 'Playing off the Rail' by Dave McCumber.

By the way, who was the steak horse for Gary when he went on road to Germany and few European contries in 1990? I don`t think that many on this board know about Gary`s road trip to Europe.

 

[Tom In Cincy]

That was the old Monday night 9 ball tournament.. run by local pool player con-artist.. trunk full of hot merchandise... Vince Balcamino.

Gary, in his prime was freakish good at banks, literally unbeatable. Back about 1980 I used to play in a partners tournament at Western Bowl in Cincinnati, I think it was on Monday nights. Gary was a regular at that tournament and a few times, before the tournament started, I practiced with him. He played so far above my speed that the way we practiced was we played nine-ball and Gary had to BANK EVERY SHOT! OK, it was just practice and no money was involved, and some of you won't believe this, but he generally held his own or came out a bit ahead in a 30 minutes practice session. Maybe that says as much about how weak my nine-ball game was, but it was not unusual for Gary to run out from the 5 or 6 ball.

 

[cuesmith]

I have to think Brumbeck had played Gary a lot, i might be wrong though. I remember Gary sleeping in the chairs at Starchers with his case on his lap waitng to play or action whichever. I really liked him, nice guy

Yes, they were both Player reps for my cues and we were all friends. They both played on my old GCII in my shop all the time.

Yes Gary was a very nice guy and my best friend. I have the dubious distinction of having been pall bearer at both Joey and Gary Spaeths funerals.

Here's a little story about Joey that just came up in a conversation with my buddy Billy Carrelli yesterday.

This was before my time in the pool world so I'm relying on Billy's recollection. It was about '75 give or take a few years and Joey Spaeth was one of the top one-pocket player in the country. He won the one-pocket division at Johnson City and was one of the true "Movers" of the game. Bugs came to Dayton to play Joey who was in Dayton more than Cincinnati for action those days. Joey spotted Bugs 8-7 and won about $800 @ $100 a game. Joey was playing very good and Bugs hadn't really figured out one-pocket at that time. He was going to school. Well the next week Bugs came back and they played the same way breaking even. The next time Bugs won a little. Next time it went to 9-8 instead of 8-7 and Joey won a little. Within 6 months they were playing even and Bugs was winning. Joey came in the poolroom the day after Bugs beat him even for the first time. If any of you remember Joey, he was a thinking man. Often you could tell he was about to say something, but he just wasn't ready to spit it out. Then all of a sudden out of nowhere he'd come out with the comment or story, well thought out in his mind! lol Sometimes I'd ask him something and he'd be thinking about his response so long I'd be wondering if he heard the question. The he'd come out with a good well thought out response to the question including any implications I may not have considered in the original topic. This was how he played one-pocket also. Anyway I'm drifting. He came into the poolroom and sat down next to Billy at the counter. Billy said he knew Joey was about to say something by his expression, but he knew Joey and just waited him out. lol "I guess I just can't beat that SOB, I mean he just banks soooo good! And now after I've played him cheap for the last 6 months, he knows everything I know. Everytime I put him in a trap, he either banks a ball that noooooo one shoots at, and makes it of course or he puts me in a worse trap! I never should have played him cheap! Gave him all my knowlege I took years to learn and invent, for pocket change. I must be the stupidest man on earth!" Joey was kind of hard on himself when he lost and often started on a practice regime. He had a check list of things he'd do (drills and concentrating on staying down til the object ball reached the pocket, stance and grip methods etc.) He do his best to force himself to get in stroke. He'd practice for hours on end, something Gary was NEVER known for. Gary had more natural talent and having grown up in a poolroom watching and playing some of the best in the world on a regular basis, had pool savvy he couldn't even explain. I remember once having a discussion with him while we were on the road driving. We were talking about different spots (handicaps) and which was a greater spot. I made the argument that the order wasn't written in stone, that the players them selves could make a difference in what was a bigger spot (ie. Spotting someone who has a terrible break, the break wasn't nearly as much of a spot as giving it to someone who breaks like king kong) anyway Gary was firm on the pecking order. I asked him why it was that way. He said "I don't know, it's that way now it's always been that way and that's the way it is!" lol Oh and for the folks who didn't grow up in a poolroom, Joey's coloquilisms about Bugs were not at all mean spirited, more a sign of respect! He thought a lot of Bugs too! I can't ever remember anyone saying anything bad or disrespectful about Bugs and gambling with him, win or lose, was never a bad experience. He was confident without being cocky, which is hard to pull off gracefully. I'm rambling again...

 

[cuesmith]

Gary's stake horse on the Germany/Europe trip was Dave Meyerson. Dave and I played a lot in the Cincinnati area. I haven't spoke to Dave since the late 90s. Dave, as well as Gary, was mentioned in Tony Annigoni's Road trip book 'Playing off the Rail' by Dave McCumber.

Yes, David Myerson did stake Gary for a few years in the early 90's when I opened up Beechmont Billiards and couldn't get away to tournaments. David also had business in Europe and brought Gary to Germany on 2 different occasions. I have pictures of Gary rolling on the motel bed with a bunch of Deutch Marks! I still see David every couple of months and we always spend some time remembering Gary!

 

[BillPorter]

That was the old Monday night 9 ball tournament.. run by local pool player con-artist.. trunk full of hot merchandise... Vince Balcamino.

Hey, Tom, back when I went over there the tournaments were run by Charlie Sayler, aka 9-Ball Charlie. Charlie is no longer with us. Vince ran them later and as you say, he may have had a character flaw or two.:grin:

 

[cuesmith]

That was the old Monday night 9 ball tournament.. run by local pool player con-artist.. trunk full of hot merchandise... Vince Balcamino.

I was in Miami until 1981 and wasn't in the pro pool scene at all until I met Gary in 1982. Belcamino pretty much haunted anyplace he thought he could steal some lunch money. He was upset with me when I was getting ready to open Beechmont. He stopped by and made a comment about "He'll be glad when we get open. There's always a new bunch of suckers when a new room opens. I told him that they weren't a "new bunch of suckers" they were MY CUSTOMERS, and I wouldn't let him rob any unsuspecting kids or people who didn't have a clue. I had no problem with him matching up with the "pool players" or people who know the ropes, but, they were MY CUSTOMERS, I was paying ALL the overhead and I wasn't about to take advantage of the customers, I couldn't let him or anyone else for that matter. Sure there were times when people made games and got screwed, I wasn't up everyone business, but you can tell when scammers are about to pounce sometimes and we didn't turn our heads to that. Damn, I'm rambling today. Too hot outside to do anything!

 

[jay helfert]

Yes, they were both Player reps for my cues and we were all friends. They both played on my old GCII in my shop all the time.

Yes Gary was a very nice guy and my best friend. I have the dubious distinction of having been pall bearer at both Joey and Gary Spaeths funerals.

Here's a little story about Joey that just came up in a conversation with my buddy Billy Carrelli yesterday.

This was before my time in the pool world so I'm relying on Billy's recollection. It was about '75 give or take a few years and Joey Spaeth was one of the top one-pocket player in the country. He won the one-pocket division at Johnson City and was one of the true "Movers" of the game. Bugs came to Dayton to play Joey who was in Dayton more than Cincinnati for action those days. Joey spotted Bugs 8-7 and won about $800 @ $100 a game. Joey was playing very good and Bugs hadn't really figured out one-pocket at that time. He was going to school. Well the next week Bugs came back and they played the same way breaking even. The next time Bugs won a little. Next time it went to 9-8 instead of 8-7 and Joey won a little. Within 6 months they were playing even and Bugs was winning. Joey came in the poolroom the day after Bugs beat him even for the first time. If any of you remember Joey, he was a thinking man. Often you could tell he was about to say something, but he just wasn't ready to spit it out. Then all of a sudden out of nowhere he'd come out with the comment or story, well thought out in his mind! lol Sometimes I'd ask him something and he'd be thinking about his response so long I'd be wondering if he heard the question. The he'd come out with a good well thought out response to the question including any implications I may not have considered in the original topic. This was how he played one-pocket also. Anyway I'm drifting. He came into the poolroom and sat down next to Billy at the counter. Billy said he knew Joey was about to say something by his expression, but he knew Joey and just waited him out. lol "I guess I just can't beat that SOB, I mean he just banks soooo good! And now after I've played him cheap for the last 6 months, he knows everything I know. Everytime I put him in a trap, he either banks a ball that noooooo one shoots at, and makes it of course or he puts me in a worse trap! I never should have played him cheap! Gave him all my knowlege I took years to learn and invent, for pocket change. I must be the stupidest man on earth!" Joey was kind of hard on himself when he lost and often started on a practice regime. He had a check list of things he'd do (drills and concentrating on staying down til the object ball reached the pocket, stance and grip methods etc.) He do his best to force himself to get in stroke. He'd practice for hours on end, something Gary was NEVER known for. Gary had more natural talent and having grown up in a poolroom watching and playing some of the best in the world on a regular basis, had pool savvy he couldn't even explain. I remember once having a discussion with him while we were on the road driving. We were talking about different spots (handicaps) and which was a greater spot. I made the argument that the order wasn't written in stone, that the players them selves could make a difference in what was a bigger spot (ie. Spotting someone who has a terrible break, the break wasn't nearly as much of a spot as giving it to someone who breaks like king kong) anyway Gary was firm on the pecking order. I asked him why it was that way. He said "I don't know, it's that way now it's always been that way and that's the way it is!" lol Oh and for the folks who didn't grow up in a poolroom, Joey's coloquilisms about Bugs were not at all mean spirited, more a sign of respect! He thought a lot of Bugs too! I can't ever remember anyone saying anything bad or disrespectful about Bugs and gambling with him, win or lose, was never a bad experience. He was confident without being cocky, which is hard to pull off gracefully. I'm rambling again...

Sherm, I love hearing your stories. Joey is one of the guys I grew up with and idolized. Definitely the best full time pool player around that part of the Midwest. George Rood doesn't really count because he wasn't making his living playing pool. Although he was probably one of the best players in the country. You would have to go as far north as Rockford, Il. and Dallas West, or Detroit and Cornbread to find anyone who could beat Joey at any game. And Dallas wasn't about to gamble with him, except at Straight Pool. Going east there was Rempe and Butera, two great players. Both the equal of Joey in ability. Rempe may have been a better player but not a better gambler. For low stakes like $20 9-Ball, hardly anyone could beat Lou. At Straight Pool, forget about it. He was the best. Dallas wouldn't have a chance against Butera in a long match. Oh, and there was Teddy Elias up in Toledo back then, but he was primarily a 14.1 specialist too. Ervolino came through and cleaned him out one time. Steve Cook was the top young gun around then but he couldn't beat Joey at One Pocket in those days. Maybe 9-Ball, but I can't say for sure.

I played Joey in Dayton in 1974 getting 8-7 and the break. Seemed like a big spot, but I lost $400 at fifty a game. I know it seems like I'm always talking about losing on here, but those are the games you never forget. I beat a lot of guys who remember me, but I don't even remember playing them. Joey was more introverted and didn't talk much with strangers. I hung around Mergards for six months and he was there every night and never said two words to me. Gary, on the other hand, was a super friendly kid, who loved to talk pool and analyze games and spots. He was always respectful with me and never once asked me to play. Thank God!

P.S. Like you said it's hard to compare players from different eras. But going by their best games, I still have to say Taylor was the best Banker I ever saw and Bugs was second, Cannonball was third. I still put Gary even with Truman and Tony Fargo. I can't see him giving any weight to either of these two guys. I do put Gary above Jason Miller, John Brumback, Wade Crane, Mark Jarvis, Youngblood, Varner, Sigel and Buddy. All these guys played great Banks too. The guy who could have given him trouble, particularly if he went to Philly was Jimmy Fusco. Jimmy was a fantastic Bank Pool player. He just didn't get to play it that often.

 

[LAMas]

... I did play the other Youngblood, James Brown, who was one of the best in his day. He could play right there with Fargo and Truman, but I make him a slight dog. At 8-7 Youngblood would have the best of it though. Blood gave me 5-4 in L.A. at the Den and we played all day. Probably the best I ever played and I still lost, maybe four games at twenty a game....

I remember the LA Open that you put on for it was the first time I was able to see the best pros from across the USA and the world.

I watched James Brown playing Jimmy Reid one hole and I was thinking that Brown was taking a lot of time getting down getting up getting down again and then getting up. This must have bothered Jimmy for he went to the director (you) and asked that a clock be put on Brown. Putting Brown on the clock changed his whole game and he started making mistakes and eventually lost to Jimmy.... as I remember.

Those were the best tourneys then or since in L.A. - kudos.:thumbup:

 

[jay helfert]

I remember the LA Open that you put on for it was the first time I was able to see the best pros from across the USA and the world.

I watched James Brown playing Jimmy Reid one hole and I was thinking that Brown was taking a lot of time getting down getting up getting down again and then getting up. This must have bothered Jimmy for he went to the director (you) and asked that a clock be put on Brown. Putting Brown on the clock changed his whole game and he started making mistakes and eventually lost to Jimmy.... as I remember.

Those were the best tourneys then or since in L.A. - kudos.:thumbup:

That was the last hurrah for so many guys. James Brown (Youngblood), Jimmy Reid, Donny Anderson, Bugs, San Jose Dick and on and on. The big winners that week were Jose Parica (what else is new), Billy Incardona, and Roger Griffiths. All won around 10K each. Of course Mark Tadd was the big winner pulling in $26,000! ALL paid in cash too! I went with him to the bank to cash his check. Oh and Steve Cook won the One Pocket and $10,000 and promptly got on a plane and flew home to Florida. Bill Amadeo had put him in the event.

 

[Ken_4fun]

Only on AZ can we have two guys play each other. One never loss, and the other never got beat....



Ken

 

[freddy the beard]

Somebody keeps being left out

Sherm, I love hearing your stories. Joey is one of the guys I grew up with and idolized. Definitely the best full time pool player around that part of the Midwest. George Rood doesn't really count because he wasn't making his living playing pool. Although he was probably one of the best players in the country. You would have to go as far north as Rockford, Il. and Dallas West, or Detroit and Cornbread to find anyone who could beat Joey at any game. And Dallas wasn't about to gamble with him, except at Straight Pool. Going east there was Rempe and Butera, two great players. Both the equal of Joey in ability. Rempe may have been a better player but not a better gambler. For low stakes like $20 9-Ball, hardly anyone could beat Lou. At Straight Pool, forget about it. He was the best. Dallas wouldn't have a chance against Butera in a long match. Oh, and there was Teddy Elias up in Toledo back then, but he was primarily a 14.1 specialist too. Ervolino came through and cleaned him out one time. Steve Cook was the top young gun around then but he couldn't beat Joey at One Pocket in those days. Maybe 9-Ball, but I can't say for sure.

I played Joey in Dayton in 1974 getting 8-7 and the break. Seemed like a big spot, but I lost $400 at fifty a game. I know it seems like I'm always talking about losing on here, but those are the games you never forget. I beat a lot of guys who remember me, but I don't even remember playing them. Joey was more introverted and didn't talk much with strangers. I hung around Mergards for six months and he was there every night and never said two words to me. Gary, on the other hand, was a super friendly kid, who loved to talk pool and analyze games and spots. He was always respectful with me and never once asked me to play. Thank God!

P.S. Like you said it's hard to compare players from different eras. But going by their best games, I still have to say Taylor was the best Banker I ever saw and Bugs was second, Cannonball was third. I still put Gary even with Truman and Tony Fargo. I can't see him giving any weight to either of these two guys. I do put Gary above Jason Miller, John Brumback, Wade Crane, Mark Jarvis, Youngblood, Varner, Sigel and Buddy. All these guys played great Banks too. The guy who could have given him trouble, particularly if he went to Philly was Jimmy Fusco. Jimmy was a fantastic Bank Pool player. He just didn't get to play it that often.

If I wasnt so visable on the internet forums I probably wouldnt squawk, but I never seem to get a plug in the bank area from you. When it comes to top bankers, you keep leaving me out. So let me set the record straight.

Gary and I never played for money. I was headed downhill then and he was on the rise. However, in a very contentious bank tournament with almost every bank champ in there except Bugs (he was in jail overnight), Gary beat me in the finals 23 to 21. Jason Miller and Brumback were too current for me to compete with. But I had my day with Wade Crane in Johnston City, spotting him 9 to 8 and banking 9 and out the last game before he pulled up. Jarvis I beat all his life before we had to quit playing because of all the sh*t he pulled to keep from paying off the last time we played.

James Youngblood Brown suffered many strummings at my hands (he came out ahead about 20% of the time) Varner would never play until deep into his rise and my down slide.

The last time I played Sigel was during the filming of the Color of Money, I beat him three in a row, banking 8 and out the last game. He quit and we went to dinner.

I beat Buddy banking on the bar table in Johnston City (the only year they had one), after that he would only play 8 to 7 for many years. However, I did not have much success with the 8 to 7 game. We played even in the 80s and I lost twice.

Unbelievably, I had phenomenal success with Cannonball lefty Chapman. Every time we played, I played my absolute best and beat him 80% of the time.

Donny Anderson, who played almost as good as anybody suffered an 8 game strum at Bensingers in the 70s. I mentioned this win someplace on the forums once and Donnie personally called me up on the phone to contest my claim. Donnie had a case of pool player senility, whereby you only forget all the losers. Donnie finished his rant with the claim that he had only lost 5 times in his 50 year career anyway.

Tony Fargo and I only played twice and he lost both times.

Jimmy Fusco and I never played, and as far at the banking devil, Truman Hogue went, I have no shame saying I ducked him -- as did just about everybody else. Truman, like Bugs instilled a sense of dread in me.

I also had no problem ducking CornBread Red playing even banks.

Finally, I played Ronnie in Big Mama's in the early 70s 9 to 7 for $1500. The session ended incomplete, when he called a ridiculous foul on me when I was banking out.

So you see Jaybird, I hate to have to be this contentious, but your opinion is held in too high of an esteem around these forums for me to allow this obvious oversight on your part to go uncorrected. I'm sure you just forgot, thank you very much. If not, then you can consider yourself historically enlightened.

Beard