looking for advice -- equipment to use in making a commercial pool DVD

[easy-e]

People don't buy solely based on production quality. Information is MOST important. What good is a hot-looking production if the information just isn't there?

A couple of examples are Perfect Aim, Schmidt's 245, Banking with the Beard, etc. All sold pretty well and were home-made.

Not down-playing production, but it's definitely not the driving factor when making a video purchase.

What he said.

I just bought Schmidt's 294 DVD. Sometimes you couldn't even tell what ball he was shooting, and in the commentary him and Marop would say things like "now you shoot the dark ball in the corner and get shape on the orange-ish ball in the side for your key ball".

The quality didn't take away from the lesson in the slightest. Great DVD, learned a lot!

 

[nathandumoulin]

You are right, this is not a good analogy. When I suggested that I could decide first and then get the financing and education, I didn't say I should "decide to wing it." I would "get the financing AND EDUCATION" and then start the project.

You're missing my point. I'm trying to say that without first educating yourself, you can't possibly know what you're up against. So how can you acquire financing for something when you're unable to properly budget?

I'm thinking you may have the wrong idea about what I am trying to do. My original post referred to "an instructional DVD." We aren't trying to make a movie, just showing some information about making certain shots on a pool table.

Showing information regarding shots on a pool table is of no benefit to the viewer if they are bored to tears and unable to continue watching. Instructional videos are VERY boring by nature, and require a ton of creativity to make them enjoyable to watch. You may not be making a theatrical presentation, but the instructional video will still require incorporating many of the traditional "story telling" elements.

Anyway, clearly you aren't interested in taking a proper approach at this, so I'll call it quits on this one and leave you to it.

 

[nathandumoulin]

People don't buy solely based on production quality. Information is MOST important. What good is a hot-looking production if the information just isn't there?

A couple of examples are Perfect Aim, Schmidt's 245, Banking with the Beard, etc. All sold pretty well and were home-made.

Not down-playing production, but it's definitely not the driving factor when making a video purchase.

It's obvious that content is king, but how many B-movies do you see in the theaters, on TV, or on shelves in stores? There's a reason for this: a movie capitalizes on audio and video, in effect making presentation half the battle.

The key is to excel at both. If you start a project with the intentions of already overlooking one of the two, then chances are you've screwed yourself before you've begun.

EDIT: A viewer doesn't know content is good until AFTER they've watched something. Production value in trailers and such is what captivates them and pulls them in. That's how you make a sale. Content is how you make a viewer satisfied AFTER the sale.

What he said.

I just bought Schmidt's 294 DVD. Sometimes you couldn't even tell what ball he was shooting, and in the commentary him and Marop would say things like "now you shoot the dark ball in the corner and get shape on the orange-ish ball in the side for your key ball".

The quality didn't take away from the lesson in the slightest. Great DVD, learned a lot!

This is because you're die-hard. You play regularly, and post in the forums, and you don't mind dismissing bad production value in exchange for quality content.

However what percentage of league players and casual players are this dedicated? Sadly, almost none.

If you omit production value, then you risk eliminating over 95% of your potential market.

 

[BillPorter]

Showing information regarding shots on a pool table is of no benefit to the viewer if they are bored to tears and unable to continue watching.

I think the posts just preceding this last one from you suggest otherwise.

Anyway, clearly you aren't interested in taking a proper approach at this, so I'll call it quits on this one and leave you to it.

What have I said that leads you to think I am not interested in "taking a proper approach at this?" I posted questions about the project, I've read all the replies in this thread and taken advice to heart, including some of your advice, and hope to learn much more before making any purchases of equipment. I think you are just being a little mean here and trying to have the last word, even if it is not a very well thought out word.

 

[nathandumoulin]

I think the posts just preceding this last one from you suggest otherwise.


What have I said that leads you to think I am not interested in "taking a proper approach at this?" I posted questions about the project, I've read all the replies in this thread and taken advice to heart, including some of your advice, and hope to learn much more before making any purchases of equipment. I think you are just being a little mean here and trying to have the last word, even if it is not a very well thought out word.

A mean word? I'm trying to give you advice, almost all of which you're disregarding.

As such, I'm leaving you to it. What's mean about that?

(I've spent about a half hour of my life trying to help you out and make suggestions. What's so mean about that?)

 

[BillPorter]

A mean word? I'm trying to give you advice, almost all of which you're disregarding.

I have paid attention to every piece of advice you have given. Why in the world would you say I've disregarded "almost all" of it??? I mentioned just a couple of things (a dolly, a director) that didn't seem to me to be needed with the project I am planning.

(I've spent about a half hour of my life trying to help you out and make suggestions. What's so mean about that?)

Hey, you have probably spent about a half hour just responding to my responses! You just have to have that last word, right? But I'm retired and have nothing but time, so I'll just keep trying to score that last word.

 

[Fast Lenny]

Nathan I do agree with you on some points for sure. I have seen some very bad stuff from the pool world because it is unlikely most video ventures will be very profitable if plans for only one video are made. If you plan on being a company like yourself, TAR, Accustats then it makes sense. I do not use an HD camera but its a good prosumer camera, we used 2 actually for Power One Pocket, the main camera filmed in 24p which is nice. I think content is the most important as its an instructional and not a movie.

If I put my DVD when its done next to yours mine would not look as good quality wise but I do think it will be of better quality then 95% of the stuff I have seen done and I did watch a good deal of them. I did use mainly table lighting to provide a different/darker feel to it because myself and Scott thought the brightly lit ones had zero character so we might have sacrificed a bit of quality due to the lack of lighting. I know you had great success with the Mastering Pool series and look forward to seeing what is next, you certainly have set the bar.

I think as long as people are shooting with a 3CCD or Prosumer camer it should be okay and also feasible on a small budget. If they are shooting with some old VHS, HI8 camcorder, or a cheap single chip camera it probably will be terrible and look too much like a home movie. I think quality cameras today are getting smaller and cheaper, it is really amazing. You can actually get some HD cameras that are of good quality and not just saying its HD for under $1000.

I have not seen the need to stop using my VX2100 as I have not seen a huge difference in the HD vs. older Prosumer like the PD170 or VX2100 for streaming. I have watched some of the so called HD streams and while they look great it does not come across much better then say TAR who is using a Prosumer camera. Streaming HD through Ustream is not possible at the moment and would need a ton of upload speed if it were, Ustream breaks it down so it can go through over the net to everyone. If you watch a regular video on Youtube and and HD one it takes much longer to load so it would be the same for live streams.

Lighting is important and also software programs to run your stuff through along with a solid internet connection and computer running it all.

Now I have veered right in my post but you get it. What is next up for you Nathan? Also Bill, I sent you a pm with some test footage from the 3CCD camera I have for you to borrow, let me know when you need it.

 

[easy-e]

This is because you're die-hard. You play regularly, and post in the forums, and you don't mind dismissing bad production value in exchange for quality content.

However what percentage of league players and casual players are this dedicated? Sadly, almost none.

If you omit production value, then you risk eliminating over 95% of your potential market.

Good point, I never thought of it from a more casual player's POV. I am SOOO Bruce Willis!

 

[nathandumoulin]

I have paid attention to every piece of advice you have given. Why in the world would you say I've disregarded "almost all" of it??? I mentioned just a couple of things (a dolly, a director) that didn't seem to me to be needed with the project I am planning.

Hey, you have probably spent about a half hour just responding to my responses! You just have to have that last word, right? But I'm retired and have nothing but time, so I'll just keep trying to score that last word.

Why is it that every time two people disagree on something, it has to be an argument?

This whole "you need the last word" thing is ridiculous. As long as a discussion continues, people are SUPPOSED to keep responding. You can't discuss something from only one standpoint.

You asked for advice, and I'm saying that you're going about things slightly wrong. I felt like you didn't want to hear it, so I said I'd quit giving advice. Seems pretty rational to me, does it not?

Now some other members and me are debating the merits of production value. A topic to which I'm quite interested, as both Spider and Easy are making good points.

 

[nathandumoulin]

If I put my DVD when its done next to yours mine would not look as good quality wise but I do think it will be of better quality then 95% of the stuff I have seen done and I did watch a good deal of them.

Lenny, you have so much heart that I *know* your DVD will be great. I look forward to seeing what you and Scott have concocted.

What is next up for you Nathan?

I actually have something colossal in the works. I've sunk a ton of money into it and have been filming for months. It will be revealed in about 6 weeks, and you'll be the first to see the samples.

Also Bill, I sent you a pm with some test footage from the 3CCD camera I have for you to borrow, let me know when you need it.

Bill, Lenny's generous offer is definitely the way to go. A 3CCD camera has good low light sensitivity, and will make things easier when shooting pool in traditionally dark rooms. Being a loaner, it's also cost effective

 

[easy-e]

...both Spider and Easy are making good points.

I am not debating this subject with anyone, as I have zero knowledge from a production standpoint. All I can say is what I get out of DVDs of any quality (which, because of my badassedness, is not a view shared by the majority).

I hope you guys can stay civil about all of this, it is for the benefit of the customer and the industry as a whole:thumbup:.

 

[BillPorter]

This whole "you need the last word" thing is ridiculous.

I agree!

Now some other members and me are debating the merits of production value. A topic to which I'm quiet interested, as both Spider and Easy are making good points.

Great! You guys should probably start a new thread on this topic.

 

[Scott Lee]

...and in this corner, wearing the red spandex trunks... Just trying to inject a little humor before Nathan gets hostile, because you don't fawn over his "attention to detail" (I temper this with the fact that the production quality on his dvds is quite good)! I never read anything in your responses that indicated that you didn't appreciate his insight either. However, there are many ways to skin a cat! Besides...when it's all said and done, isn't this about what the poolplayer you're 'trying to help' is willing and able to invest?

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

Hey, you have probably spent about a half hour just responding to my responses! You just have to have that last word, right? But I'm retired and have nothing but time, so I'll just keep trying to score that last word.

 

[nathandumoulin]

...and in this corner, wearing the red spandex trunks... Just trying to inject a little humor before Nathan gets hostile, because you don't fawn over his "attention to detail" (I temper this with the fact that the production quality on his dvds is quite good)! I never read anything in your responses that indicated that you didn't appreciate his insight either. However, there are many ways to skin a cat! Besides...when it's all said and done, isn't this about what the poolplayer you're 'trying to help' is willing and able to invest?

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

lol Scott, I sure hope it's Bill who's wearing the red spandex trunks, otherwise this fight isn't going to happen.

I used my experience to suggest a few things to Bill, and rather than ask *why* he would need them, he instead told me they would not be necessary. This only implies to me that Bill already has his mind set on doing things a certain way, and that my words aren't being properly considered.

That's fine by me, and Bill can do as he pleases. All I know is that I'm through making suggestions.

(correcting my spelling error and sarcastically thanking my apology came across as being a smart-ass...which certainly didn't help either)

 

[BillPorter]

(correcting my spelling error and sarcastically thanking my apology came across as being a smart-ass...which certainly didn't help either)

I was wondering if you would bite on Scott's post to get that last word in.

As for my sarcastic response to your apology, how do you get sarcasm from this???


Originally Posted by nathandumoulin View Post
My apologies if I sound discouraging!

Apology accepted.
__________________
Regards,
Bill Porter

 

[BillPorter]

...and in this corner, wearing the red spandex trunks... Just trying to inject a little humor before Nathan gets hostile, because you don't fawn over his "attention to detail" (I temper this with the fact that the production quality on his dvds is quite good)! I never read anything in your responses that indicated that you didn't appreciate his insight either. However, there are many ways to skin a cat! Besides...when it's all said and done, isn't this about what the poolplayer you're 'trying to help' is willing and able to invest?

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

Hey Scott, all I asked for in my original post was a ballpark figure on the costs and ideas about editing and DVD copying. I got some worthwhile suggestions about cameras and an offer of a loan of a nice camera. All the silliness with Nathan is just fun and games with me, not worth putting on those spandex trunks.

 

[Scott Lee]

Whew! You don't even want to know how much it costs to produce our videos...it was plenty! But it was in a studio, had four cameras (two operated by people, one still, and one overhead), and a crew of 5, not including the talent! Then there's the post production, editing and duplication. I know it can be done for a lot less, and I wish you the best of luck with your endeavor.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

Hey Scott, all I asked for in my original post was a ballpark figure on the costs and ideas about editing and DVD copying.

 

[nathandumoulin]

I was wondering if you would bite on Scott's post to get that last word in.

As for my sarcastic response to your apology, how do you get sarcasm from this???

You just come across as a smart ass. This whole "get the last word in" thing is just childish. As for sarcasm, it's just what I sensed. Post #32 only helped confirm this for me. Your most recent post as well.

If you were being sincere in your earlier posts, then I do apologize for the misunderstanding. However in all honesty, I'm not convinced.

Anyway, I'm off to contribute to threads where I feel welcome. Best of luck with your production (I actually mean that).

 

[BillPorter]

This whole "get the last word in" thing is just childish.

I agree! But I'll be surprised (though pleasantly) if you don't try at least once more to have the last word in this thread.

If you were being sincere in your earlier posts, then I do apologize for the misunderstanding. However in all honesty, I'm not convinced.

I was sincere in asking for recommendations regarding cameras, costs, editing, and DVD copying and appreciate the replies on these topics, including yours.

As a matter of fact, the production values of your DVDs with Mika is so high, if you lived closer, I'd be asking you to work with my pool player friend instead of trying to do any of it myself. If you have a serious suggestion about someone in the Cincinnati/Northern Kentucky area who might be willing to take on a low budget project with a world class player, you can PM me. Hey, I'm 68 years old, retired, lazy, and have enough money, so I'm just considering this out of friendship with the pool player.

 

[Alf Taylor]

Billy, you really should call me

I have lots of pro equipment for that sort of thing that you are welcome to borrow. Remember, I produced a couple of videos awhile back that showed me the difference between a profession and a hobby.
A hobby costs money and a profession makes it. But with a video hobby, getting there is more than half the fun. It taught me one thing..........
I've no business in show business.

Eddie Taylor And THE legends Of Pool...
Archer-Reyes, Shootout in The Rockies
C.J.Wylie and The All Japan Tournament
The WPBA Hawaiian Classic
The Whirling Dervish's Of Turkey
Mayan Football (Pok-A-Tok) in the Yucatan
The Cobra Charmers Of Morocco
The Pearl Farms Of Tahiti

Keep it nice. Alfie