New York's top money players

[jay helfert]

Jaybird, you left out the best hustler of them all, Brooklyn Jimmy Cassas. I am going to visit Jimmy next week at Saratoga Race Track. Jimmy is in his upper 70s now. He is, aside from Richie From the Bronx Ambrose, the only one of the original gang still kicking.

Beard

Brooklyn Butch and Rex were just kids back then.

Thanks Freddie for chiming in. I never put Jimmy up there with these other killers but it may be because he hid his speed so good. I suspect he made more money than any of them though. Ervolino did well at pool but his fondness for the ponies was costly. Maybe if he had stuck closer to Jimmy he might have been a better handicapper. :wink:

 

[jay helfert]

Jay
I'm as fascinated with James Evans as i am with Harold Worst.
I think i've seen him play in'65 in a big money straight pool match.
It was in an all black room in Harlem (least it was till i walked in).
He had grey hair but looked well preserved.He aslo had the 'presense'
of a great player.I understand the top players of the generation before
me patronized his room in Harlem and considered him the best black
player ever.
Miz told me about Harold Worst busting a 10-ball ring game for huge
money with nothing but champions ,including Lassiter,quitting .
That was at James' room.
It's hard to find much about James.I don't even know if it was Evans
i saw play in '65.Is the time-frame right?

ps...i am not proud of my generation for softening the general attitude
on drugs...but i'm pleased we had a lot to do with treating a man based
on his character rather than his race

I'm not sure when James Evans died. If I ever saw him in the 60's in New York he wasn't playing pool anymore. I don't think he was still playing in the 60's if he was alive. I would have heard about it.

Come to think of it, he was probably gone by then. I used to hear a lot about how good he was back then from the older players, but they referred to him in the past tense. I suspect he died prior to the 60's. Like I said I don't really know. I only know him by name and reputation. He was rated second only to Greenleaf by the veteran players.

 

[jay helfert]

Just to add to the thread, since we are talking about the NYC metro area too (Hopkins, Frady, Jack Breit), there were also guys like Steve Mizerak, Ray Martin and Petey Margo that should get a mention. Oh yeah, what about Cisero Murphy?


*edit- I reread that Jay mentioned Mizerak and Margo originally


Eric

Cisero was never known as a money player. I don't think I ever saw him gamble. But he was one guy who I doubt that Ervolino could have beat in a Straight Pool challenge match. All the New York players had a lot of respect for Cisero.

 

[Fast Lenny]

When I had just got my drivers license and 1st car in the winter of '74/75, a friend of mine and I went to South Philly to catch a money match between Hopkins and Miz (9 ball). It was my 1st real pool hall and I was mezmerized. A young Hopkins, surely the 'dog, ripped Miz a new one and I'll never forget how pissed and sour Miz was at the end.

Some old smokey hall, rough neighborhood, with a collection of characters. After the match I saw a big glass cabinet there with cues for sale. That's when I bought my 1st cue that I still use to this day. It was sold to me as a Palmer for $125, but I've since learned it's not and remains unidentified.

That match forever changed my stars.

Post some pictures, maybe it can be identified. Nice story.

 

[Johnnyt]

Jaybird, you left out the best hustler of them all, Brooklyn Jimmy Cassas. I am going to visit Jimmy next week at Saratoga Race Track. Jimmy is in his upper 70s now. He is, aside from Richie From the Bronx Ambrose, the only one of the original gang still kicking.

Beard

Brooklyn Butch and Rex were just kids back then.

Saratoga Race Track=Graveyard for favorites. Good luck at the track. Johnnyt

 

[Nostroke]

Saratoga Race Track=Graveyard for favorites. Good luck at the track. Johnnyt

I once went there with three other horse racing veterans. 3 out of 4 didnt hit a single race and we were there for the whole card. The other guy hit one race but still lost big overall. That was my second and last time there-the first time i didn't hit either.

Never did well at the flats but i did win 28 out of the first 30 days the Meadowlands was open. Then i lost my license and had to bus it to Yonkers Raceway where i lost somewhere around 50-60 races in a row before calling it quits at that track. At the end i was betting 3-5 favorites just to cash but never did.

 

[measureman]

Neptune Joe Frady was no bargain for anyone. For small stakes he was near unbeatable.

I played a ton of pool with Joe Frady (learned a lot) and his shot making ability was up there with the very best. But the thing with Joe was you never knew which Joe Frady was going to show up. You either got the incredible player who could beat anyone or the one who wasn't very impressive.
Another hint on "The Legend" he was in the paving business.

 

[Nostroke]

I played a ton of pool with Joe Frady (learned a lot) and his shot making ability was up there with the very best. But the thing with Joe was you never knew which Joe Frady was going to show up. You either got the incredible player who could beat anyone or the one who wasn't very impressive.
Another hint on "The Legend" he was in the paving business.

Joe is kinda strange and mopier than me- I dont think i ever saw him smile or laugh.

One very well respected player and poster on here finally met Joe a few years back and told him what a great player he was and he was honored to meet him etc. Fed him about 40 compliments in 2 minutes. Joe just kept nodding his head with an occasional "yeah". Not one thank you.

 

[measureman]

Joe is kinda strange and mopier than me- I dont think i ever saw him smile or laugh.

One very well respected player and poster on here finally met Joe a few years back and told him what a great player he was and he was honored to meet him etc. Fed him about 40 compliments in 2 minutes. Joe just kept nodding his head with an occasional "yeah". Not one thank you.

I first met Joe when he was 12 years old. He is really a rather shy person unless you know him well. Once you get to know him he will smile and laugh with the best of them. He is really quite funny around people he is comfortable with. And if he gets comfortable on a table you are in for a treat,unless you are the one getting pounded on.

 

[jay helfert]

I first met Joe when he was 12 years old. He is really a rather shy person unless you know him well. Once you get to know him he will smile and laugh with the best of them. He is really quite funny around people he is comfortable with. And if he gets comfortable on a table you are in for a treat,unless you are the one getting pounded on.

Neptune Joe is an East Coast legend! Even Mizerak thought he was his toughest opponent for a few dollars. I guess they would play something like 150 points for $50 plus the time. Steve said beating Joe was like winning a world championship. And in case you didn't know, Steve was only the best Straight Pool player on the planet, bar none! Sigel was second to Steve for many years (in the 70's) until Steve began to slide (from being over weight), and then Mike took over as number one for the next ten years or so. Hopkins, Rempe and Varner were Mike's toughest challengers, but Sigel was the Straight Pool king in the 80's.

 

[Rick S.]

no mention?

Of the one and only....Bernie 'textbook' Friend.

According to him....he was the best.

He actually should have been arrested for impersonating a pool player.

Remember him, Jay??

http://www.internationalpooltour.com/Players/Bio_Friend_Bernard.aspx

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KiHVKhgFoCo

 

[vagabond]

One very well respected player and poster on here finally met Joe a few years back and told him what a great player he was and he was honored to meet him etc. Fed him about 40 compliments in 2 minutes. Joe just kept nodding his head with an occasional "yeah". Not one thank you.[/QUOTE }



In 1994 I tried to get a game from Neptune Joe at elite billliards in Marlboro,NJ on route 9.he did not fall for my moves.I was looking for a high dollar game.I then tried the same thing on him few weeks later in Elizabeth NJ and he did not fall for it either.Joes game was very close to allen hopkins game at that time.

 

[measureman]

One very well respected player and poster on here finally met Joe a few years back and told him what a great player he was and he was honored to meet him etc. Fed him about 40 compliments in 2 minutes. Joe just kept nodding his head with an occasional "yeah". Not one thank you.[/QUOTE }



In 1994 I tried to get a game from Neptune Joe at elite billliards in Marlboro,NJ on route 9.he did not fall for my moves.I was looking for a high dollar game.I then tried the same thing on him few weeks later in Elizabeth NJ and he did not fall for it either.Joes game was very close to allen hopkins game at that time.

I watched Hopkins play Joe 9 ball. Hopkins played him a race 11 to 10 that's respect. One of the times I played him straight pool he broke and I ran 58 and said "take that" He ran a 100 and out! And just smiled at me.

 

[jay helfert]

Of the one and only....Bernie 'textbook' Friend.

According to him....he was the best.

He actually should have been arrested for impersonating a pool player.

Remember him, Jay??

http://www.internationalpooltour.com/Players/Bio_Friend_Bernard.aspx

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KiHVKhgFoCo

You know Bernie had shown his face around pool before the IPT. He was kind of a pool imposter, who could practice a little and make it look like he knew what he was doing. I know I've seen him somewhere around pool action before. Maybe at a tournament just hitting balls or in an action poolroom acting like a player. He had some prior experience in impersonating a pool player. He might have even played in one of the big open tournaments, like the BCA. I've seen this guy somewhere before.

 

[Rich93]

Johnny Irish was from another era, the Greenleaf era. When I arrived in New York the first time in 1964, he was already well into his 60's. I played him at 7/11 not knowing (or caring) who he was. I found out later I had played with a legend. I think he died by the late 1960's.

From what I was told, at one time he may have been the best player in the country, right there with Lassiter at 9-Ball and Rags at One Pocket. Some people thought he was the best player that ever lived. I NEVER heard that said about Mosconi back then. In the 60's they still talked about how great Greenleaf was. He was rated over Mosconi by all the old time players. And James Evans was second.

Mosconi was considered a top tournament player, that's all. And even at that, some of the old timers felt that Caras and Crane had more heart and played better under pressure. They scoffed at all his world titles won in challenge matches against hand picked opponents. Mosconi lost his one challenge match with Cranfield and never played him again. This is what someone told me, so I don't know this first hand. He broke even with Caras in challenge matches as well. And didn't like playing Crane either, except in a tournament when he had to.

No question Willie was a great player, but among his peers he was not considered the best of all time. Most of the old time players liked Rag's game, saying that no one ever beat him. And they felt Lassiter was the best 9-Ball player, along with Willis and Rood. But when they talked about the all time greats, Johnny Irish's name always came up. He was definitely a world beater. Even back then, there was differences of opinion about who the top players were. But it was a small select group.

That statement about Mosconi challenge matches is easily checked, thanks to Charlie Ursitti's compilation of all 14.1 championships and championship challenge matches, i.e., challenges where the winner becomes the official champion (www.charlesursitti.com). And it turns out to be quite wrong. Mosconi won 12 of his 13 championship challenge matches, losing only his first challenge match to Andrew Ponzi. Neither Crane nor Caras ever beat him in a championship challenge match. Some of the margins of victory are embarrassing, especially during the latter period but before his stroke. Conclusion - in a long match Mosconi was pretty much unbeatable during his prime.

Here are all the championship challenge matches Mosconi played in during the '40's and '50's. In order to challenge for the championship title, a player had to have "standing" (most likely, being the runner-up in the previous championship tournament or a prior champion). I'm quite certain that Cranfield never had such standing during the Mosconi days. That's not to say that they never played a challenge match, just never one for the title.

April 13-17, 1943... Ponzi 1250, Mosconi 1050
Feb 29-March 4, 1944... Mosconi 1250, Ponzi 924
Jan 29-Feb 24, 1945... Mosconi 5498, Greenleaf 3738
Feb 4-March 30, 1946... Mosconi 8727, Caras 7508
Nov 6-22, 1946... Mosconi 3750, Crane 2919
May 8-18, 1947... Mosconi 2000, Crane 918
Oct 25-Nov 12, 1947... Mosconi 4000, Caras 2334
Mar 5-7, 1948... Mosconi 1350, Ponzi 643
Jan 8-19, 1951... Mosconi 3000, Crane 2323
Feb 22-Mar 11, 1954... Mosconi 2400, Procita 989
Nov 28-Dec 2, 1955... Mosconi 1500, Crane 676
Jan 30-Feb 22, 1956... Mosconi 6300, Caras 3007
March 15-20, 1956... Mosconi 1800, Jimmy Moore 879

 

[jay helfert]

That statement about Mosconi challenge matches is easily checked, thanks to Charlie Ursitti's compilation of all 14.1 championships and championship challenge matches, i.e., challenges where the winner becomes the official champion (www.charlesursitti.com). And it turns out to be quite wrong. Mosconi won 12 of his 13 championship challenge matches, losing only his first challenge match to Andrew Ponzi. Neither Crane nor Caras ever beat him in a championship challenge match. Some of the margins of victory are embarrassing, especially during the latter period but before his stroke. Conclusion - in a long match Mosconi was pretty much unbeatable during his prime.

Here are all the championship challenge matches Mosconi played in during the '40's and '50's. In order to challenge for the championship title, a player had to have "standing" (most likely, being the runner-up in the previous championship tournament or a prior champion). I'm quite certain that Cranfield never had such standing during the Mosconi days. That's not to say that they never played a challenge match, just never one for the title.

April 13-17, 1943... Ponzi 1250, Mosconi 1050
Feb 29-March 4, 1944... Mosconi 1250, Ponzi 924
Jan 29-Feb 24, 1945... Mosconi 5498, Greenleaf 3738
Feb 4-March 30, 1946... Mosconi 8727, Caras 7508
Nov 6-22, 1946... Mosconi 3750, Crane 2919
May 8-18, 1947... Mosconi 2000, Crane 918
Oct 25-Nov 12, 1947... Mosconi 4000, Caras 2334
Mar 5-7, 1948... Mosconi 1350, Ponzi 643
Jan 8-19, 1951... Mosconi 3000, Crane 2323
Feb 22-Mar 11, 1954... Mosconi 2400, Procita 989
Nov 28-Dec 2, 1955... Mosconi 1500, Crane 676
Jan 30-Feb 22, 1956... Mosconi 6300, Caras 3007
March 15-20, 1956... Mosconi 1800, Jimmy Moore 879

Man some of those were marathons. I agree that no one could beat Willie in a super long match. I think his losses to Crane and Caras came in shorter challenge matches ("exhibitions") that were not considered "Championship" matches. Thanks for correcting me though. They also beat him for several world championships in the real tournaments that were full field round robins.

If those are twelve of Mosconi's fifteen world Championships, that means he only won three of the true tournaments. Could that be possible? In the BCA record book, it lists Mosconi as losing World Championships to Ponzi and Caras once each and to Crane twice. I am beginning to believe that most of Mosconi's "World Championships" were in two man Challenge matches. It does appear that he won three or four others in the far more difficult round robin tournaments.

Just goes to show that things are not always exactly as they appear.

 

[bondsman]

As far as top money player in NYC during that era, what about Boston Joey, and there was a Spanish player named WAWA, and even Toby Sweet was around during that era. Wondering how Jay rate these guys.

 

[Rich93]

Man some of those were marathons. I agree that no one could beat Willie in a super long match. I think his losses to Crane and Caras came in shorter challenge matches ("exhibitions") that were not considered "Championship" matches. Thanks for correcting me though. They also beat him for several world championships in the real tournaments that were full field round robins.

If those are twelve of Mosconi's fifteen world Championships, that means he only won three of the true tournaments. Could that be possible? In the BCA record book, it lists Mosconi as losing World Championships to Ponzi and Caras once each and to Crane twice. I am beginning to believe that most of Mosconi's "World Championships" were in two man Challenge matches. It does appear that he won three or four others in the far more difficult round robin tournaments.

Just goes to show that things are not always exactly as they appear.

I'm too lazy at this late hour to go back and look, but I believe that in most of those challenge matches Willie was the champion defending his title. When he did lose to Caras or Crane in the tournaments, he usually won the title back in a challenge match.

Some were really marathons all right. They'd go around to different rooms and play parts of the challenge match. It was a way of making money, since the rooms would pay to host.

 

[jay helfert]

As far as top money player in NYC during that era, what about Boston Joey, and there was a Spanish player named WAWA, and even Toby Sweet was around during that era. Wondering how Jay rate these guys.

Boston Joey was another one who could hide his speed well. He could play with the big dogs though, no question. I can't really comment on Wawa, although he was around and in action a lot. Toby wasn't a New Yorker, but he got around everywhere pool was played on the East Coast. He was a killer for the cash, but doubtful he wanted to tangle with the 7/11 crew. Toby knew where to draw the line. He could play 9-Ball with Richie, Blackie, Shorty and Jersey Red, but why? There was no future for him playing those guys and they would have been super tough action for him. A notch or two above the guys he was used to playing and robbing.

 

[Nostroke]

Boston Joey was another one who could hide his speed well. He could play with the big dogs though, no question. I can't really comment on Wawa, although he was around and in action a lot. Toby wasn't a New Yorker, but he got around everywhere pool was played on the East Coast. He was a killer for the cash, but doubtful he wanted to tangle with the 7/11 crew. Toby knew where to draw the line. He could play 9-Ball with Richie, Blackie, Shorty and Jersey Red, but why? There was no future for him playing those guys and they would have been super tough action for him.

Where was Toby from? He is splitting his time between NY (Rockland County) and West Palm Beach currently, New York as his daughter lives there.

I always thought he was from NY because I have heard stories about him here going back 35 years minimum. I see him in both places so ill ask him.