Better, topic (Veneers)

[RBC]

Mike,

I believe they are stacked.

I do know that this picture is of a Spain blank Balabushka. Dick Abbott took it for me yesterday. When talking with him about it, we came to the conclusion that these were stacked veneers. But, as in the book that Manwon posted, Spain definitely did miters too.

I still think it's easier to do stacked very well than miters very well. But, once you get miters down very well, they can be repeated quite well. It's just a discipline thing.

 

[Michael Webb]

Mike,

I believe they are stacked.

I do know that this picture is of a Spain blank Balabushka. Dick Abbott took it for me yesterday. When talking with him about it, we came to the conclusion that these were stacked veneers. But, as in the book that Manwon posted, Spain definitely did miters too.

I still think it's easier to do stacked very well than miters very well. But, once you get miters down very well, they can be repeated quite well. It's just a discipline thing.

Absolutely and Thank you and Dick for the picture.

 

[scdiveteam]

I've done both. 7 or 8 years ago, I did about 20 or 30 that way. I haven't done one or two veneers mitered. I would probably remachine a 1 layer, If I was doing a two with thin, I would probably overlap. I use a router table with a flush cut router bit to clean up the veneer when glued on. I start with a square big enough to get 4 points out of then glue two sides on at a time, clean up and glue on the other two sides. Have a jig with a couple of hold down clamps on to do the pressing. I haven't tried doing the paper veneers in the stacked method, but it would probably work. As a side note, I have done boxes stacked, but will not do them that way anymore. In boxes, I do believe the mitered looks better. But that's just me.

Thank you very much.[/QUOTE]

Mike,

I use a 1 1/4 point stock piece that has be planned then sanded in my belt sander. Like you, I get all four points from this stock after the veneers are glued. Saves a lot of time!

Rick G

 

[Piercyexclusive]

If it's so easy, I would like to see a close up of your miters.



I would like to see a close up picture of your recut wood veneers. I'm not talking about recut points, I'm talking about Veneers that you cut, dyed and put in a cue.

Dennis, is this you???

marshalls the name

 

[Michael Webb]

Thank you very much.

Mike,

I use a 1 1/4 point stock piece that has be planned then sanded in my belt sander. Like you, I get all four points from this stock after the veneers are glued. Saves a lot of time!

Rick G[/QUOTE]

Excellent, Thank you Rick.

 

[ScottR]

Thank you Sir
As a person who does very good forearm blanks and clean miters, Any thoughts you might like to add.

You guys would laugh your asses off if you saw the homemade/designed jigs that I came up with to do mitered veneers. However, I got them to work pretty well by the end of my trials.

I also got tips and ideas from real cue makers and many times could not get them to work right for me. As a result, my own methods were developed. Since I "went into retirement", I've learned several methods that will help my consistency if I ever get back into it.

It might have been mentioned already, but I think that adhesives, their consistency and penetration properties, have a lot to do with achieving "invisible mitered seams. For example, I never got the look I wanted with any type of epoxy. I didn't try all of them, but ended up back with wood glues. I guess we'll see how my forearms hold up over the years.

I only tried the overlapped/stacked method once and it seem pretty simple, but tedious. One question I have about doing them this way:

- Do you have to get your clamping pressure exactly the same on each layer? It seems that you could possibly compress one layer more on one side and it would be noticeable when turned; especially for a thicker veneer.

Scott <<== really enjoying this VERY civil exchange of ideas, opinions and information

 

[qbilder]

Scott, I believe the clamping pressure would have to be significantly different to cause a noticeable difference in veneer thickness. If clamping tight enough to squeeze several thou, then you're clamping too tight. I, too, prefer wood glue with veneers.

 

[Michael Webb]

You guys would laugh your asses off if you saw the homemade/designed jigs that I came up with to do mitered veneers. However, I got them to work pretty well by the end of my trials.

I also got tips and ideas from real cue makers and many times could not get them to work right for me. As a result, my own methods were developed. Since I "went into retirement", I've learned several methods that will help my consistency if I ever get back into it.

It might have been mentioned already, but I think that adhesives, their consistency and penetration properties, have a lot to do with achieving "invisible mitered seams. For example, I never got the look I wanted with any type of epoxy. I didn't try all of them, but ended up back with wood glues. I guess we'll see how my forearms hold up over the years.

I only tried the overlapped/stacked method once and it seem pretty simple, but tedious. One question I have about doing them this way:

- Do you have to get your clamping pressure exactly the same on each layer? It seems that you could possibly compress one layer more on one side and it would be noticeable when turned; especially for a thicker veneer.

Scott <<== really enjoying this VERY civil exchange of ideas, opinions and information

Absolutely perfect and what I was hoping for, Scott as you already know, If you act respectful to cue makers you can just about ask any questions you wish. From what I know of you, You ask and keep the info to make your life in the Billiard community and overall knowledge about cues, very enjoyable. You never condem any methods but observe and try to put them into perspective. That is not just respectable but also incredible, Your a good man.
For your question:
Tension or compression if you will gives very good results when the pressure is as even as possible, The real key to overlapped is FLAT, The one point that I always have concern about is that I don't apply to much pressure where it might push all the glue and create a dry spot. A dry spot can also give you a buzz.

 

[Mr Hoppe]

snip . . . The real key to overlapped is FLAT . . .

Very true. After gluing veneers on two opposing sides, I trim flush on a router table, and then lap on a stone with sand paper to ensure that the ends are perfectly flat and free of extra adhesive (wood glue in my case.) I also alternate, so the seams each go in different directions. To me, stacking is a safe technique, and worth the extra time. There are never any surprises when you cut the cue round.

 

[Michael Webb]

Very true. After gluing veneers on two opposing sides, I trim flush on a router table, and then lap on a stone with sand paper to ensure that the ends are perfectly flat and free of extra adhesive (wood glue in my case.) I also alternate, so the seams each go in different directions. To me, stacking is a safe technique, and worth the extra time. There are never any surprises when you cut the cue round.

Excellent Mr. Hoppe, Thank you for posting.

 

[Fullsplice]

You're right that the center of the point bottom moves, but the center of the miter must move with it. After all, they are glued together one right into the other.

Right?

If you offset the cue enough, moving the center of the point groove which in turn moves the center of the miter, the miter will no longer be in the center of the point....giving it the appearance of a stacked veneer. But stacked veneers alternate and as you stated in an earlier post the veneers in the Spain cue did not appear to alternate. I know it's a weird thing to try and wrap your mind around but I've seen a ton of old fullsplice cues that look like this and I'm pretty damn sure you can't stack veneer in one of those. At least if you can I don't know how to do it.

 

[rhncue]

Mike,

I believe they are stacked.

I do know that this picture is of a Spain blank Balabushka. Dick Abbott took it for me yesterday. When talking with him about it, we came to the conclusion that these were stacked veneers. But, as in the book that Manwon posted, Spain definitely did miters too.

I still think it's easier to do stacked very well than miters very well. But, once you get miters down very well, they can be repeated quite well. It's just a discipline thing.

"I still think it's easier to do stacked very well than miters very well. But, once you get miters down very well, they can be repeated quite well. It's just a discipline thing."

These are exactly my thoughts and what I've been trying to convey in all of my posts. I used to dread doing mitered veneer points as my techniques were not dependable and I was never sure what the outcome would be. I then started to spend time finding ways to improve my techniques. Each improvement made a better looking point. Once you get your angles correct and the miters start looking good then the little, subtle changes can make them perfect. Proper prep of the veneers and the glues that are used are as important as the miter itself.

Once your techniques are in place, it becomes just as easy to confidently make great looking mitered veneers as it does stacked.

I am not down on stacked veneers, myself, although I never do them unless absolutely necessary. Back in the 90's Sherm and myself were at a BCA trade show someplace, that I don't really remember where now. We went to some pool room one night and the owner bought and resold custom cues. I had a cue I had built that had stacked veneers as that was how I was building them because they looked so much better than my mitered ones. The owner looked at my cues and bought a couple of plain ones but he wouldn't buy the veneered cue because he said the points looked like they weren't made by me but purchased from Prather's and that he only purchased mitered. I've never used the stack method since except for single veneers. I'm now glad that he never bought that cue as that experience is what spurred me on to perfect the mitered technique.

Dick

 

[Michael Webb]

If you offset the cue enough, moving the center of the point groove which in turn moves the center of the miter, the miter will no longer be in the center of the point....giving it the appearance of a stacked veneer. But stacked veneers alternate and as you stated in an earlier post the veneers in the Spain cue did not appear to alternate. I know it's a weird thing to try and wrap your mind around but I've seen a ton of old fullsplice cues that look like this and I'm pretty damn sure you can't stack veneer in one of those. At least if you can I don't know how to do it.

Change of the times as it appears, I don't think the emphasis was put on veneer work back in the day that it is now.

 

[RBC]

If you offset the cue enough, moving the center of the point groove which in turn moves the center of the miter, the miter will no longer be in the center of the point....giving it the appearance of a stacked veneer. But stacked veneers alternate and as you stated in an earlier post the veneers in the Spain cue did not appear to alternate. I know it's a weird thing to try and wrap your mind around but I've seen a ton of old fullsplice cues that look like this and I'm pretty damn sure you can't stack veneer in one of those. At least if you can I don't know how to do it.

Mark,

Yes, the center moves, but the thing you have to remember is the relation between the center of the point groove, which is the point, and the miter. If the miter hits the bottom of that groove, which it does, then both would move together. It's not possible to change their relation. The miter is glued directly into the bottom of that groove. The line we see with mitered veneers is the glue joint that goes from the top of the veneers, next to the actual point wood, to the forearm itself or the groove. You just can't move that line away from the center of that groove. It's glued there and no matter how you cut it, it will always point back to the bottom of that groove.

 

[Fullsplice]

Royce PM sent.

 

[BarenbruggeCues]

"I still think it's easier to do stacked very well than miters very well.

This is common knowledge in any wood working industry. It's hell of a lot easier to butt glue two pieces of wood together than it is to match two mitered cuts. As far as which looks better....that's a no brainer also....an expertly executed miter joint is more attractive to the eye. How many picture frames do you see in museums with butt glued corners?
Of course we all know the better way to achieve the best looking veneers whether one or a stack of five, is neither butt nor mitered.

 

[Rodney]

This is common knowledge in any wood working industry. It's hell of a lot easier to butt glue two pieces of wood together than it is to match two mitered cuts. As far as which looks better....that's a no brainer also....an expertly executed miter joint is more attractive to the eye. How many picture frames do you see in museums with butt glued corners?
Of course we all know the better way to achieve the best looking veneers whether one or a stack of five, is neither butt nor mitered.

Cheater:grin:. Is it expensive to have them made, or do you make them?

Rodney

 

[Michael Webb]

This is common knowledge in any wood working industry. It's hell of a lot easier to butt glue two pieces of wood together than it is to match two mitered cuts. As far as which looks better....that's a no brainer also....an expertly executed miter joint is more attractive to the eye. How many picture frames do you see in museums with butt glued corners?
Of course we all know the better way to achieve the best looking veneers whether one or a stack of five, is neither butt nor mitered.
][/QUOTE

Awesome, Thanks Dave.

 

[GBCues]

This has been SUCH A GOOD thread.

Not sure I grasp everything that has been shared, but I will book mark it for future reference.

Thanks all (so far - keep it coming!)

Gary

 

[merylane]

Take a look at these.

Are they mitered, or stacked?

theyre obviously mitred.... and looks like rays cue.