Question: When were the current 10 Ball rules (WPA) written to be call shot?

DogsPlayingPool

DogsPlayingPool

"What's in your wallet?"
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The reason I ask is because I was watching the TAR Challenge match between SVB and Alex that was played in May of 2008. At the beginning the commentators only said they were playing "international 10 Ball rules". I take this to mean WPA rules.

In the 10th rack, with Alex ahead 5-4, SVB definitely slops in the 1 ball, yet he continued shooting. As a matter of fact, on this same shot the 10 ball is slopping towards an upper corner pocket and the announcers only made mention that the 10 ball may go without any comment that it wouldn't have counted. Clearly it seems they were playing "Texas Express" 10 Ball or in other words, 10 Ball with 9 ball rules. I'm about 2 1/2 hours into the DVD's and not once that I can think of has an option to give the table back (other than on a push-out) been exercised and there have definitely been missed shots that left the incoming player hooked.

This got me to wondering if the 10 Ball rules were amended to call shot more recently than I thought.

Thanks.
 
Not sure when they changed but I'm pretty sure they've been debating it since 10 ball made a resurgence. It's been an argument in 9 ball too. So this allows folks to have a chance to play both sets of rules, otherwise what would be the point of 10 ball except for correcting the rack issues from 9 ball.
 
New rules came January 2008, if I am not mistaken.

First World Ten Ball Championship was in October 2008, and they used the rules for some time before that event.
 
DogsPlayingPool said:
The reason I ask is because I was watching the TAR Challenge match between SVB and Alex that was played in May of 2008. At the beginning the commentators only said they were playing "international 10 Ball rules". I take this to mean WPA rules.

In the 10th rack, with Alex ahead 5-4, SVB definitely slops in the 1 ball, yet he continued shooting. As a matter of fact, on this same shot the 10 ball is slopping towards an upper corner pocket and the announcers only made mention that the 10 ball may go without any comment that it wouldn't have counted. Clearly it seems they were playing "Texas Express" 10 Ball or in other words, 10 Ball with 9 ball rules. I'm about 2 1/2 hours into the DVD's and not once that I can think of has an option to give the table back (other than on a push-out) been exercised and there have definitely been missed shots that left the incoming player hooked.

This got me to wondering if the 10 Ball rules were amended to call shot more recently than I thought.

Thanks.
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DogsPlayingPool:

Actually, the WPA instituted the rules for 10ball to be "call shot" right at the outset. From the very inception of WPA's embrace of 10-ball as the new champion's competition rotation game of choice, the rules were call-shot. 10-ball in the olden days was also played call-shot. (I got this from my Dad; a career NYC police detective who played pool competitively in the 1940s and 1950s -- he was known as the "Leinen Express" -- a moniker that I'm proud to have inherited).

As for the confusion about the rules, here's the rub -- 10-ball is a rotation game. Therefore, those Texas Express types/advocates think "rotation = Texas Express" (i.e. Texas Express being "bolted to the hip" of any rotation game). So initially, as those 9-ball players stepped up to playing 10-ball, they brought along with them Texas Express into any 10-ball game they played, because that's all they knew. It was only after watching some very high profile tournaments/matches, they see the difference with call-shot, when they see the table being turned over after an obvious slop shot.

Later, methinks it was Corey Deuel who introduced "full-blown" call-shot rules for the Seminole Tribe 10-ball Tour in Florida, where in addition to the WPA rules, a missed shot meant "option" to the incoming player (incoming player has the option to accept the table as-is, or else give it back to the player that missed the shot), and called safeties that pocketed a ball were also option to the incoming player. Tony Robles, after playing in one of the Seminole Tribe tournaments, really loved the rules, and fully adopted them for his Predator Open/Pro 10-ball tour.

And, I gotta tell ya, after playing in a couple of the Predator Open/Pro 10-ball tour stops, I personally love these rules. Granted, two-way shots are essentially obsolesced, but the new rules introduce the foreign concept of COMMITTING to either a shot, or a safety ("you can't have your cake and eat it, too"), and accepting the consequences if you miss. Yes, two-way shots are beautiful, but something had to give to minimize luck and allow the player that was really playing better to win.

Hope this is helpful,
-Sean
 
Roy Steffensen said:
New rules came January 2008, if I am not mistaken.

First World Ten Ball Championship was in October 2008, and they used the rules for some time before that event.
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Not quite. The rules revision for January 2008 did not include 10 ball as a game. The rules for 10 ball were added later, and the source of the rules is not clear to me. I was asked for comments, but my points did not make it into the final version.

If anyone feels that the rules for 10 ball should be changed (or even just clarified), he should contact his national Federation (BCA in the US) with the details of the problem. (That goes for the other rules as well.) The next rules revision should take place in January, 2013, and they should be approved at the preceding WPA General Assembly. The actual changes and revisions have to be done some time before that GA.
 
I'm a little confused by the two way reference. I haven't been playing 10 Ball (not anything lately). Are you saying NO combos? No potting of more than one ball per shot?
If so why wouldn't a simple "call your shot" ....the entire shot work for a rule? Or even a modified rule of "call your shot" but current object ball must be potted?:confused:


EDIT: Just read rule 9.5 so what I was thinking of appears to be covered. So what is "TWO WAY"?
 
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Tbeaux said:
Two -way? :confused:
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There are essentially to kinds of two-way shots that happen in 9 ball. One involves trying to pocket the object ball at the same time as perhaps getting a free play on the 9, like as in a carom. Or say the 9 is hanging in a corner and you shoot the one in the side while trying to ride the CB down the rail and sink the 9. The other kind of two way shot (and this is more common) is playing a shot with a safety as plan B if you miss the shot. So you are playing the 1 ball with position on the 2, but if you happen to miss the shot (while you achieved position on the two for yourself) you leave your opponent with no shot on the one ball which he must shoot at since you missed. This is a 2 way shot because you are playing 1) to make the ball and get position on the two ball, or 2) if you miss leave your opponent safe on the 1 ball.

The WPA 10 Ball rules do away with the first type of 2 way shot since you must call a ball and you cannot call two balls. So if you are going to try to make the 10 ball to win you have to call the 10. This means if you call the 10 and miss but make the lowest number ball on the table with a good hit, your inning is over because you did not call that ball.

The 2nd type of 2 way shot (shot/safety) is still sometimes in play according to current WPA rules. As long as no ball goes down, the incoming player must take the balls in position. Only if you sink the called ball in a wrong pocket or pocket another ball does the incoming player have the option to give it back.

As Sean mentioned, some tour events, like Tony Robles Predator events and most notably the SBE 10 Ball event, always allows the incoming player the option to give the table back on any miss whether a ball goes down or not. Played this way both types of two way shots are eliminated from the game.


Bob Jewett said:
Not quite. The rules revision for January 2008 did not include 10 ball as a game. The rules for 10 ball were added later, and the source of the rules is not clear to me. I was asked for comments, but my points did not make it into the final version.

If anyone feels that the rules for 10 ball should be changed (or even just clarified), he should contact his national Federation (BCA in the US) with the details of the problem. (That goes for the other rules as well.) The next rules revision should take place in January, 2013, and they should be approved at the preceding WPA General Assembly. The actual changes and revisions have to be done some time before that GA.
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So Bob, can you provide any insight then why the SVB / Alex match I referred to was played Texas express, if they were playing by "international rules"? I mean while Sean mentioned that many people played 10 Ball TE style, it was the pros that embraced call shot 10 Ball all along.
 
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Hmmmm are you sure? About the first type I mean.



9.5 Call Shots & Pocketing Balls
Whenever the shooter is attempting to pocket a ball (except the break) he is required to call shots, the intended ball and pocket must be indicated for each shot if they are not obvious. Details of the shot, such as cushions struck or other balls contacted or pocketed are irrelevant.

For a called shot to count, the referee must be satisfied that the intended shot was made, so if there is any chance of confusion, e.g. with bank, combination and similar shots, the shooter should indicate the ball and pocket. If the referee or opponent is unsure of the shot to be played, he may ask for a call.


9.7 Wrongfully Pocketed Balls
If a player misses his intended ball and pocket, and either makes the nominated ball in the wrong pocket or pockets another ball, his inning has finished and the incoming player has the option to take the shot as is, or hand it back to his opponent.



9.8 Continuing Play
If the shooter legally pockets a called/nominated ball on a shot (except a push out, see 9.4 Second Shot of the Rack – Push Out), any additional balls pocketed remain pocketed (except the ten ball; see 9.9 Spotting Balls), and he continues at the table for the next shot. If he legally pockets the called ten ball on any shot (except a push out), he wins the rack. If the shooter fails to pocket the called ball or fouls, play passes to the other player, and if no foul was committed, the incoming player must play the
cue ball from the position left by the other player.
 
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The Camel Pro Billiards Series played 9 ball and ten ball in the late 90s with $75,000 added in their biggest events. Ten ball was their logo and played in their bigger events and they never played call shot. Call shot is a bad idea for any rotation game. Ten ball is much different from 9 ball anyway because you make fewer balls on the break and with the extra ball you wind up with 2 or 3 more balls on the table after the break on average. These extra balls decrease your ability to play the same shots repeatedly and reward players with more varied skills.

The game will evolve from 10 ball to 11 and 12 ball with good racks. If you don't believe that, bet the 10 ball ghost on 4 and 1/2 inch pockets against a top player with a perfect rack. Top players are capable of destroying the 10 ball ghost on 4" pockets. With good racks, 12 ball is a competition for them, 10 ball is not. Call shot will not help this evolution, it will only hinder it by making players more cautious and emphasizing safe play over aggression.
 
Tbeaux said:
Hmmmm are you sure? About the first type I mean.
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Yeah, I'm sure. I read your post but am not sure I understand what you highlighted that disputes what I said. If you could explain more specifically where what you posted is at odds with my post I will either explain or admit I said something in error.:wink: I guess you have something in mind but I'm not quite sure what it is.
 
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DogsPlayingPool said:
Yeah, I'm sure. I read your post but am not sure I understand what you highlighted that disputes what I said. If you could explain more specifically where what you posted is at odds with my post I will either explain or admit I said something in error.:wink: I guess you have something in mind but I'm not quite sure what it is.
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The point is (changing 9ball for 10ball) if the 10 is in the corner and you are shooting at the say 3 which is next to the side pocket all you need to do as I read it is call the 10 in the corner and contact or make the 3.

Where does it say you can't make two balls in these rules?
 
Tbeaux said:
The point is (changing 9ball for 10ball) if the 10 is in the corner and you are shooting at the say 3 which is next to the side pocket all you need to do as I read it is call the 10 in the corner and contact or make the 3.

Where does it say you can't make two balls in these rules?
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I never said you cannot make more than one ball. If you legally make a called shot any other ball counts EXCEPT the 10 Ball, which would spot back up (unless of course, the called ball IS the 10 ball in which case you win the game). That's not in dispute and I didn't say it was.

You were asking about what was meant by a two-way shot. You can make both balls under the situation you described, but all I'm saying it is it is not a two way shot that we normally think of when referring to 2-way shots in 9 Ball . You are shooting to make the 10 Ball and there is no plan B, so to speak. In 9 ball it is a two way shot because you get to keep the table if the three goes in even if you don't make the ball you were really going for (the 9 ball). But in Ten Ball it is not a two-way shot because if you call the 10 Ball and it doesn't go in your inning is over whether you made the 3 ball or not. And if you call the 3 ball instead and make them both, the 10 doesn't count and spots up.

BTW, the way the rules are written for 10 Ball, in the situation you described you are actually penalized if you should miss the 10 ball because, since you DID pocket the 3, you pocketed a wrong ball and the incoming player has the option to give you back the table (under WPA rules). If trying a shot like this, you are better off NOT pocketing the three ball because then if you miss the 10 ball (assuming no other balls go down) at least your opponent would have to take the balls in position.
 
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David_Smith said:
The Camel Pro Billiards Series played 9 ball and ten ball in the late 90s with $75,000 added in their biggest events. Ten ball was their logo and played in their bigger events and they never played call shot. Call shot is a bad idea for any rotation game. Ten ball is much different from 9 ball anyway because you make fewer balls on the break and with the extra ball you wind up with 2 or 3 more balls on the table after the break on average. These extra balls decrease your ability to play the same shots repeatedly and reward players with more varied skills.

The game will evolve from 10 ball to 11 and 12 ball with good racks. If you don't believe that, bet the 10 ball ghost on 4 and 1/2 inch pockets against a top player with a perfect rack. Top players are capable of destroying the 10 ball ghost on 4" pockets. With good racks, 12 ball is a competition for them, 10 ball is not. Call shot will not help this evolution, it will only hinder it by making players more cautious and emphasizing safe play over aggression.
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David:

The point of resurrecting the game of 10-ball from the ashes of time, is that you now have a CHOICE of rotation games. What's incredibly funny is how the Texas Express advocates, in defending their "you'll pry my Texas Express from my cold dead fingers" stance, will make a HUGE deal about how much more difficult adding one ball -- just one ball -- makes the game. "Oh my gosh! Adding that 10-ball really elevates this game to championship levels!!" Give me a break. The only thing that one extra ball did, was to restore the pristine triangle rack startup condition, which minimizes the "wired" (or "guaranteed") wing balls into the corner pockets -- a vulnerability with the diamond-shaped 9-ball rack. But yet the Texas Express advocates will sing a song about how much "challenge" that extra ball gives to the game, and really, REALLY try to divert your attention away from the fact that 10-ball was a call-shot game from its infancy. It's a "bait and switch" facade, in actuality.

Getting back to the topic of having a CHOICE of rotations games to play, 9-ball is generally accepted to have Texas Express rules wired through and through. For those that are sick and tired of the vulnerabilities of 9-ball, we now have 10-ball -- and the difference between the two games is *NOT*, and I repeat *NOT*, just one extra added ball. 10-ball rules have been resurrected from the sands of time, and those rules are CALL-SHOT. Sure, the Seminole Tribe, Predator Open/Pro 10-ball tour, and Super Billiards Expo (in that order) have added extensions to the WPA rules to further "professionalize" it, but the fact remains it's generally accepted to be a call-shot game.

Don't like call-shot? Don't play 10-ball, and opt to play 9-ball instead. It's just that simple. World-standardized rules are there for a reason. If you prefer Texas Express, you are already playing a game you're comfortable with -- 9-ball, with additional band-aids to help make it competitive with 10-ball (i.e. to address the vulnerabilities of the diamond-shaped rack -- breaking from the box, no soft breaking, racking with the 9-ball on the foot spot, 3 balls must cross the head-string, etc.).

I repeat, if you don't like call-shot, don't play 10-ball. You have an option -- 9-ball. It's very simple. "Rotation pool" does not mean "Texas Express" is bolted to its hip.

Respectfully,
-Sean
 
sfleinen said:
David:

The point of resurrecting the game of 10-ball from the ashes of time, is that you now have a CHOICE of rotation games. What's incredibly funny is how the Texas Express advocates, in defending their "you'll pry my Texas Express from my cold dead fingers" stance, will make a HUGE deal about how much more difficult adding one ball -- just one ball -- makes the game. "Oh my gosh! Adding that 10-ball really elevates this game to championship levels!!" Give me a break. The only thing that one extra ball did, was to restore the pristine triangle rack startup condition, which minimizes the "wired" (or "guaranteed") wing balls into the corner pockets -- a vulnerability with the diamond-shaped 9-ball rack. But yet the Texas Express advocates will sing a song about how much "challenge" that extra ball gives to the game, and really, REALLY try to divert your attention away from the fact that 10-ball was a call-shot game from its infancy. It's a "bait and switch" facade, in actuality.

Getting back to the topic of having a CHOICE of rotations games to play, 9-ball is generally accepted to have Texas Express rules wired through and through. For those that are sick and tired of the vulnerabilities of 9-ball, we now have 10-ball -- and the difference between the two games is *NOT*, and I repeat *NOT*, just one extra added ball. 10-ball rules have been resurrected from the sands of time, and those rules are CALL-SHOT. Sure, the Seminole Tribe, Predator Open/Pro 10-ball tour, and Super Billiards Expo (in that order) have added extensions to the WPA rules to further "professionalize" it, but the fact remains it's generally accepted to be a call-shot game.

Don't like call-shot? Don't play 10-ball, and opt to play 9-ball instead. It's just that simple. World-standardized rules are there for a reason. If you prefer Texas Express, you are already playing a game you're comfortable with -- 9-ball, with additional band-aids to help make it competitive with 10-ball (i.e. to address the vulnerabilities of the diamond-shaped rack -- breaking from the box, no soft breaking, racking with the 9-ball on the foot spot, 3 balls must cross the head-string, etc.).

I repeat, if you don't like call-shot, don't play 10-ball. You have an option -- 9-ball. It's very simple. "Rotation pool" does not mean "Texas Express" is bolted to its hip.

Respectfully,
-Sean
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When I was growing up playing pool, 9 ball was 2 foul ball in hand - we called it roll out rules. You could roll out at any time if you weren't already on 1 foul. People glorify those rules now but we never played them we just played snooker instead. Texas Express was a vast improvement because it simplified the game and made defense actually mean something because players had to actually shoot at kick shots instead of just rolling to an easier position. While it might be interesting to see a tournament or two played with those rules they are in my mind far inferior because mistakes are not punished severely enough.

Call shot rules simply swing the game too far toward defense and conservative play in my opinion and if those were the old rules of 10 ball, even though I certainly never heard of it in the 70s, I still think they are inferior, just as I think roll out 9 ball is inferior.

I'd much rather play 11 or 12 ball, but not with call shot or roll out rules. And I think the perfect rack will allow tournaments to be played in 11 and 12 ball where it was not really feasible before with bad racks extending too many games too long.

Adding one ball doesn't make it hard enough for top players in my opinion. But I believe call shot rules slow the game too much to allow it to progress to 11 and 12 balls as I believe it naturally would with perfect racks speeding play and some kind of shot or preferably a match clock limiting stalling. One thing is certain, more balls are harder to run out. Watching a 10 ball runout with call shot will never be as exciting as watching a 12 ball runout without call shot.

When the game goes to 11 or 12 ball, considering the increased chance for safety play with more balls, would you still favor call shot rules which undoubtedly favor safety play, or Texas Express rules which favor more aggressive play?
 
David_Smith said:
... When the game goes to 11 or 12 ball, considering the increased chance for safety play with more balls, would you still favor call shot rules which undoubtedly favor safety play, or Texas Express rules which favor more aggressive play?
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I'd still favor call-shot rules, because
(1) any game that allows a professional to continue playing or to win by slopping a ball into an unintended pocket is fundamentally flawed and
(2) safety play (including escapes from safeties) is one of my favorite parts of pool as both a player and a spectator.​
 
AtLarge said:
I'd still favor call-shot rules, because
(1) any game that allows a professional to continue playing or to win by slopping a ball into an unintended pocket is fundamentally flawed and
(2) safety play (including escapes from safeties) is one of my favorite parts of pool as both a player and a spectator.​
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(1) A quarterback isn't forced to call his receiver, a pitcher isn't forced to call his location, Robert Horry can bank in a 3 pointer, a tennis player can win on a net ball or a mis-hit, etc.
(2) Safety play is fine, but I believe you should always risk not getting back to the table when you play safe. Players that are forced to call either safe or call a pocket on kicks are greatly handicapped and much more likely to call safe, this reduces the likelihood of anyone kicking in a ball and running out on a safe. That gives an unnecessary advantage to safety play and discourages aggressive play.
 
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