Let me get this straight. You rack and I get to play the 10ball ghost with break ball in hand? And you lay me 6-5? I accept your offer sir.
Pattern Racking
- Thread starter Paul Schofield
- Start date
Let me get this straight. You rack and I get to play the 10ball ghost with break ball in hand? And you lay me 6-5? I accept your offer sir.
So rack rigging and pattern racking do not exist?
Please do not take my brevity for ignorance.
I'm on AZB. LOL indeed.
Mechanic??? Lol this site amazes me. It's not my fault that there are some people with an IQ below 86.
Actually, many players prefer less than a tight rack.....someone can correct me if I am wrong, but it's actually beneficial to just have the first 3 tight.....if the back end is loose, you get a lot more action
Also, the thread isn't about loose vs tight, it's about pattern racking for an advantage....putting the balls in certain positions, tilting the rack, or moving the spot to achieve a certain outcome....
If the only concern was a tight rack, any tournament or match-up would easily work with a trusted 3rd party doing the racks.....there are too many strong players out there that can vouch as to the advantages of rack your own.....hell, to some people, it's considered a spot to certain players because they are so good at it.....
No not at all. You deffinetly have every right to a tight rack,all balls frozen and youd be a fool to accept anything less.Like Ive said Donny Mills has IMO perfected the rack and break.And believe me thats a compliment.But in tournaments especialy there should be a neutral type of racking.Gambling, hey you made the game its up to you.I like the 10 ball rack that touches the back rail so its on the spot everytime. My winning average well you can come to Ft Pierce fl (ultimate-Billiards.com) and find out anytime.We will guarantee you action.
That rack that touches the back rail sux imo. it was used at valley forged and it was not good at all.
I dont really like that pool hall, the lights are too low on the diamonds and Im tall and I have a bad neck so I feel like I have to bend down to see the table.
If the lights were raised it would be a lot better pool hall.
Who can I get action with? you? or someone like robb saez who plays a lot better than me?
Ray you are dead on!!!!!!!
I know for me and Im sure most good players , they would accept a tight rack and the balls in no particular order than a bad rack with the balls in a certain order.
It really doesnt matter all that much where the balls are placed imo
They did raise the lights finally. I havent used that rack it just looked like a good Idea. Ill give ya one pocket action and theres a few 9 ball players around thatll play.There having a TK tourn tommorow if your not doing anything. The lights being raised helped alot now if theyed get the A/C turned down it would be a niceroom.If robb plays alot better then I tought you were someone else. What doesnt work well with the rack that touches the rail?Like I said ive only seen it and not used it.
The tail end of this thread reads as though we are talking about players doing the scouts honor thing. Look, if there is no problem racking and breaking in your tournaments playing Ten-Ball, give it time. It will get there. Nine-Ball got there and Ten-Ball is well on it's way.
There is a Youtube video of two world class players playing "rack your own" Ten-Ball in a major tournament. (also 10 on the break wins). What went on was the worst. One player pattern racked the entire rack every time. He made sure that the balls in the second row were froze to everything as to promote one of the balls in the scond row to the side pocket. At the same time, he was making sure that the 10-ball was not froze to one of the balls ahead of it as to promote the ball toward a corner pocket. To top it all off, he was racking the balls as many as 19 times (I counted) to get it all manipulated in his favor. This is good for pool? This is right?
There is a Youtube video of two world class players playing "rack your own" Ten-Ball in a major tournament. (also 10 on the break wins). What went on was the worst. One player pattern racked the entire rack every time. He made sure that the balls in the second row were froze to everything as to promote one of the balls in the scond row to the side pocket. At the same time, he was making sure that the 10-ball was not froze to one of the balls ahead of it as to promote the ball toward a corner pocket. To top it all off, he was racking the balls as many as 19 times (I counted) to get it all manipulated in his favor. This is good for pool? This is right?
I don't take it personally, DM...sorry if you did.
We all know that a 9b rack can be manipulated to the advantage or disadvantage of the breaker. A point not worthy of debate.
What would you suggest we call one who has the ability to do that? Rack mechanic sounds spot-on to me.
I think you are guilty. You are guilty of shooting too straight and developing a top-shelf break. Like they say: don't hate the player, hate the game.
Youtube link please! Post holds no weight without proof. I hate pattern racking myself and I hate poor racks too. I'm somewhere in the middle of this topic. What we need are electronic balls that are all exactly the same size that can level a spot after people tap balls etc. You rack them and hit a remote control button random number generator and the rack will be random and tight...the same guys will prob still win.
Not here
Seminole tour the 1,2,3, are locked into the corner, and the ten doesn't count on the break... You have to earn it in that format. I know where the balls are going after the break playing 10 ball. Anyone who's watched a decent player play the game will tell you the two balls behind the 1 go towards the side, and the corner balls four rail around, but that's gonna happen regardless. It's just a matter of playing shape for those things...
On the tour i've racked the same "pattern" for two years.. played the same rack pattern every time and no one gets upset. I guarantee you all the top players do the same. Corey snatched my rack pattern from me after we played in cape coral 2 years ago. Been doing the same one just about every tourney. I don't see ppl jumping down his throat. They all just play the game. If you'd like to know and see it in action, go watch Shane vs. Alex race to 100... both Shane and Alex rack the same pattern for 3 days straight... lol i didn't see those two guys arguing very much.
Of course when Shane Breaks and runs four identical racks, ppl think it's just cuz of the break... don't count on it...
Seminole tour the 1,2,3, are locked into the corner, and the ten doesn't count on the break... You have to earn it in that format. I know where the balls are going after the break playing 10 ball. Anyone who's watched a decent player play the game will tell you the two balls behind the 1 go towards the side, and the corner balls four rail around, but that's gonna happen regardless. It's just a matter of playing shape for those things...
On the tour i've racked the same "pattern" for two years.. played the same rack pattern every time and no one gets upset. I guarantee you all the top players do the same. Corey snatched my rack pattern from me after we played in cape coral 2 years ago. Been doing the same one just about every tourney. I don't see ppl jumping down his throat. They all just play the game. If you'd like to know and see it in action, go watch Shane vs. Alex race to 100... both Shane and Alex rack the same pattern for 3 days straight... lol i didn't see those two guys arguing very much.
Of course when Shane Breaks and runs four identical racks, ppl think it's just cuz of the break... don't count on it...
Actually...
No top player will want to have the back ball lose because they are more afraid of hanging the 9 on the break (since it has more of a chance to squirt out) thus giving up a cheap game...
The common misconception is that as long as the first 3 are frozen it's a good rack but not the case. IF you really want some in depth info on the subject get the Racking Secrets DVD from Joe Tucker. That describes the 3 and four ball tracks that ppl are looking to be frozen when inspecting the rack.
As for keeping the balls in a certain order, it's a percentage thing. It really only increases your odds very slightly and in short tournament races it may not show up. What it will do is give the player a little more confidence because they're used to practicing with a particular run out.
I don't think you'll see ppl intentionally Tilting the rack one way or another... you'll see that if someone's moving on you. And moving the head ball up or down is usually in response to how the table racks. Sometimes there are tapped sets that are off the spot and the only way to get a good tight rack is by finding the sweetspot. Sometimes that's clear above the spot or just off center to the right or left... Ultimately you want a tight rack that's straight up and down with those 3/4 ball tracks to ensure you're gonna make a ball on the break.
Get a copy of that video from Mr. Tucker, you'll learn alot.
Actually, many players prefer less than a tight rack.....someone can correct me if I am wrong, but it's actually beneficial to just have the first 3 tight.....if the back end is loose, you get a lot more action
Also, the thread isn't about loose vs tight, it's about pattern racking for an advantage....putting the balls in certain positions, tilting the rack, or moving the spot to achieve a certain outcome....
If the only concern was a tight rack, any tournament or match-up would easily work with a trusted 3rd party doing the racks.....there are too many strong players out there that can vouch as to the advantages of rack your own.....hell, to some people, it's considered a spot to certain players because they are so good at it.....
No top player will want to have the back ball lose because they are more afraid of hanging the 9 on the break (since it has more of a chance to squirt out) thus giving up a cheap game...
The common misconception is that as long as the first 3 are frozen it's a good rack but not the case. IF you really want some in depth info on the subject get the Racking Secrets DVD from Joe Tucker. That describes the 3 and four ball tracks that ppl are looking to be frozen when inspecting the rack.
As for keeping the balls in a certain order, it's a percentage thing. It really only increases your odds very slightly and in short tournament races it may not show up. What it will do is give the player a little more confidence because they're used to practicing with a particular run out.
I don't think you'll see ppl intentionally Tilting the rack one way or another... you'll see that if someone's moving on you. And moving the head ball up or down is usually in response to how the table racks. Sometimes there are tapped sets that are off the spot and the only way to get a good tight rack is by finding the sweetspot. Sometimes that's clear above the spot or just off center to the right or left... Ultimately you want a tight rack that's straight up and down with those 3/4 ball tracks to ensure you're gonna make a ball on the break.
Get a copy of that video from Mr. Tucker, you'll learn alot.
yup
You bring up 2 good points. Alot of times when balls are misshapen or not the same size all the way through the set you get players spending more time fidgeting and fingering the rack trying to force the balls to all stick. In my home pool room it's an epidemic... if i dont' get ahold of one of the nice sets behind the bar it's almost no point to playing against the ghost because it's so painstaking to rack...
Second good point is that the same guys will still win.. this is because the main goal of having a tight rack has been achieved.. they're still going to out shoot, out move, and out safe the people that they're already doing that too...
You bring up 2 good points. Alot of times when balls are misshapen or not the same size all the way through the set you get players spending more time fidgeting and fingering the rack trying to force the balls to all stick. In my home pool room it's an epidemic... if i dont' get ahold of one of the nice sets behind the bar it's almost no point to playing against the ghost because it's so painstaking to rack...
Second good point is that the same guys will still win.. this is because the main goal of having a tight rack has been achieved.. they're still going to out shoot, out move, and out safe the people that they're already doing that too...
Look, putting an end to rack manipulating is not rocket science. It’s about the ball on the break. What is the ball on the break anyway? Well, a ball on the break gets done in one of two ways: 1) the ball gets lucked in or 2) the rack gets finagled to increase probability. We don’t like slop and all this racking nonsense is just crap. Has pool lost its way here or what? Why is a player required to slop a ball in a hole to get the opening shot? Are we shooting dice or pool? I can cover the top of a pool table with useless racking and breaking gadgets put forward over recent years. These gadgets are the ultimate finagle. Man-oh-man, just rack the balls and break!
The answer is simple. Get rid of the ball on the break requirement. Make it moot, as it should be. Breaker shoots after a legal break. Once you say “Breaker shoots after the break whether he makes a ball or not”, what’s the problem? All the garbage just goes away. It becomes “case closed”. The ball on the break ain't so great. All it does is create problems. Just get rid of it. The next natural move is to alternate breaks.
The benefit of doing this is far more than what meets the eye. I am not alone on this. The following is a list of advocates. One notable signer-on is someone who was mentioned a number of times in this thread: racking and breaking guru Joe Tucker. All of these people have thought long and hard about it. I encourage you to read the “No Conflict Rules” and think what it all means. It is so obvious and simple. It is also more fun.
http://www.goldcrownbilliardseriepa.com/noconflict.html
Bob Jewett: “I think Paul's rules above solve the problems.”
Danny DiLiberto: “I will talk about these rules every chance I get when I commentate.”
Fred Bentivegna: “I personally think he has a great new idea.”
Joe Tucker: “I believe this rule will cost me MONEY! But I still think it should be implemented”
John Schmidt: “this is exactly how the games should be played”
Pat Fleming: “I think Paul’s new rules are in the game’s best interest.”
Robert Byrne: “You can use my name as a strong advocate for a rules change for the break.”
Scott Lee: “I like your no-conflict rules”
The answer is simple. Get rid of the ball on the break requirement. Make it moot, as it should be. Breaker shoots after a legal break. Once you say “Breaker shoots after the break whether he makes a ball or not”, what’s the problem? All the garbage just goes away. It becomes “case closed”. The ball on the break ain't so great. All it does is create problems. Just get rid of it. The next natural move is to alternate breaks.
The benefit of doing this is far more than what meets the eye. I am not alone on this. The following is a list of advocates. One notable signer-on is someone who was mentioned a number of times in this thread: racking and breaking guru Joe Tucker. All of these people have thought long and hard about it. I encourage you to read the “No Conflict Rules” and think what it all means. It is so obvious and simple. It is also more fun.
http://www.goldcrownbilliardseriepa.com/noconflict.html
Bob Jewett: “I think Paul's rules above solve the problems.”
Danny DiLiberto: “I will talk about these rules every chance I get when I commentate.”
Fred Bentivegna: “I personally think he has a great new idea.”
Joe Tucker: “I believe this rule will cost me MONEY! But I still think it should be implemented”
John Schmidt: “this is exactly how the games should be played”
Pat Fleming: “I think Paul’s new rules are in the game’s best interest.”
Robert Byrne: “You can use my name as a strong advocate for a rules change for the break.”
Scott Lee: “I like your no-conflict rules”
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And furthermore: You never, ever need a neutral racker again. There is no point.
Ray, thanks for the tip on Joe Tucker, I've been meaning to get his stuff for quite some time....
As you make your point above, whether it only offers a slight edge, or whether it's confidence, or maybe it's just getting a runout you are used to.....if you are playing by rules that require a random rack, then it's cheating.....
I just find it hypocritical that people who claim to play by the rules and have a sense of honor seem to turn a blind eye to themselves when they deliberately plan a rack.....it's funny and kind of sad.....and no, this doesn't apply to those who specifically gamble that way - if everybody is playing by the same game and rules, then do whatever you want, I don't care
Also, I don't agree with taking away a ball on the break.....part of pool, or any game/sport for that matter, is luck.....and a good, solid, powerful break where a certain player can make a ball a higher percentage of time than another player is more skill than luck.....besides, you can never take all the luck out of the game, even with 100 rule changes.....a ball can always roll off, either toward or away from a pocket.....you can hit a perfect shot, but at contact you get a nice skid and miss the pocket by an inch.....no amount of rules is going to remove luck....
I simply can't agree with changing a rule because so many people don't abide by it.....enforce the rule, penalize those not playing by the rules, and they will either get in line or go play poker :grin:
3 sessions before you caught it and you think that's what beat you!!!! if you guys played anywhere near the same level you'd be looking from the gate to see why he keeps beating you.
you got out smarted
Ball in hand? Nice talking to you. Have a nice day!