Difference btwn. a CM & Custom CM

K

KJ Cues

Pro Cue Builder & Repair
Silver Member
Simply stated, I'm a cue-maker, not a custom cue-maker.
The way I see it, a CM builds the cues he wants to build to achieve the results that he wants in a cue. They're his cues and he can build them anyway he wants to.
A CCM builds the cues that he's paid and directed to build, to satisfy a client's request. That's all well & good but what if you as the builder don't agree with what the client wants? Are you being hypocritical by saying NO?
Secondly, would you put your name on it?

Your thoughts are welcome.
 
KJ Cues said:
Simply stated, I'm a cue-maker, not a custom cue-maker.
The way I see it, a CM builds the cues he wants to build to achieve the results that he wants in a cue. They're his cues and he can build them anyway he wants to.
A CCM builds the cues that he's paid and directed to build, to satisfy a client's request. That's all well & good but what if you as the builder don't agree with what the client wants? Are you being hypocritical by saying NO?
Secondly, would you put your name on it?

Your thoughts are welcome.
Click to expand...

Kj, they are comming to you because you are the expert. If they don't want to listen then I would say that you are the wrong expert for them. It is good to get input from your customers as they may come up with ideas that you have not so far. There is nothing wrong with a customer wanting something alittle different. But if it is not going to work and you know that they will be unhappy with the results, I would turn them down. Oh and for the record, I would say that your cues are custom. If you where building cues or shafts to exact specs. every time like production cues with same shafts, wood, and materials then I would say just cue maker. For example, can I get a Predator Z2 shaft off the shelf at 31"?
Also for the record, most customers don't know what they want and they expect you to come up with some great piece of art. Most offten this will reflect your tastes. This is why the best cue that I have made , that was for myself, belongs to my friend. Darn it.

Jim.
 
KJ Cues said:
Simply stated, I'm a cue-maker, not a custom cue-maker.
The way I see it, a CM builds the cues he wants to build to achieve the results that he wants in a cue. They're his cues and he can build them anyway he wants to.
A CCM builds the cues that he's paid and directed to build, to satisfy a client's request. That's all well & good but what if you as the builder don't agree with what the client wants? Are you being hypocritical by saying NO?
Secondly, would you put your name on it?

Your thoughts are welcome.
Click to expand...

Hi KJ:
First off, My cue so my name goes on it. It's not an option as far as I'm concerned.
2ND. I have said No Thank you a few times, it's not that bad. A few times people have asked for combinations of woods, I personally don't agree with. If a compromise cannot be met, I politely turn it down.
3rd. I have been asked to use some woods that I have never worked with so I'm lacking the knowledge of that particular species that is needed to do the job correctly. It happens.
 
Mc2 said:
Kj, they are comming to you because you are the expert. If they don't want to listen then I would say that you are the wrong expert for them. It is good to get input from your customers as they may come up with ideas that you have not so far. There is nothing wrong with a customer wanting something alittle different. But if it is not going to work and you know that they will be unhappy with the results, I would turn them down. Oh and for the record, I would say that your cues are custom. If you where building cues or shafts to exact specs. every time like production cues with same shafts, wood, and materials then I would say just cue maker. For example, can I get a Predator Z2 shaft off the shelf at 31"?
Also for the record, most customers don't know what they want and they expect you to come up with some great piece of art. Most offten this will reflect your tastes. This is why the best cue that I have made , that was for myself, belongs to my friend. Darn it.

Jim.
Click to expand...

If my clients are coming to me because , as you say, I'm the expert, then I've already built the cue they're looking for. Pick one out and I'll adjust it to fit (wght., taper & shaft dia., etc.).
I have referred potential customers to other CMs because I'm not comfortable with what they're asking me to build. I'm not trying to belittle their ideas or designs, I'm just being honest with them and I will explain that.
But some people want what they want and nothing will deter them. That's fine and I will give them a list of CMs that I think might honor their request. I won't put my name on a cue that I wasn't comfortable building so why build it?

I don't consider my cues to be custom. To me, custom implies that the client will tell you exactly what they want and you will built it to their exact specifications. If that request falls within my scope of the perfect 'player', I will build the cue. If it doesn't, then they don't really want a KJ cue, they just thought they did. No harm done. Trust me, we're both going to be better-off for it. They will eventually get the cue they want and I will get to keep my sanity (at least for one more day).

I don't (intentionally) build art, by today's standards. I build function.
Maybe we could call it functional-art. To me, the art is in the function.
Art WITHOUT function is the reason for putting cues in glass cases.

Lol, as far as a 31" Predator shaft, that was possible with the Gen1 series but not anymore. The Gen2 partial is 29-3/4" max. Most are 29-5/8".

Anyway Jim, thanx for your input. Always good to hear from you, even if it is virtual.
 
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Again, please excuse posting in the cue maker section since I am not one.

With that being said... I would describe you KJ as a custom cue maker as long as you have a certain range of parameters that you can work with design-wise and spec-wise.

Does that mean that you have to build every request you get? NO, you just build those that fall within your beliefs and style. Would specialized custom cue maker be more suitable? :) I guess all you cue makers are restricted to a parameter range to some extent.

I don't think any cue maker is willing to make a cue that they know is going to be unacceptable. Sometimes the customer thinks that he knows what he wants but lacks the knowledge to realize it is not really what they want. This happens in all aspects of life, just not cue-making.

For the record, you made me a very customized OB-1 shaft with weight added to correct an issue with a cue I had that I'm very grateful for. Had I asked for something crazy like a non hollow OB-1 with ivory ferrule and zero deflection then I'm sure you would have turned me down. ;)
 
KJ Cues said:
If my clients are coming to me because , as you say, I'm the expert, then I've already built the cue they're looking for. Pick one out and I'll adjust it to fit (wght., taper & shaft dia., etc.).
I have referred potential customers to other CMs because I'm not comfortable with what they're asking me to build. I'm not trying to belittle their ideas or designs, I'm just being honest with them and I will explain that.
But some people want what they want and nothing will deter them. That's fine and I will give them a list of CMs that I think might honor their request. I won't put my name on a cue that I wasn't comfortable building so why build it?

I don't consider my cues to be custom. To me, custom implies that the client will tell you exactly what they want and you will built it to their exact specifications. If that request falls within my scope of the perfect 'player', I will build the cue. If it doesn't, then they don't really want a KJ cue, they just thought they did. No harm done. Trust me, we're both going to be better-off for it. They will eventually get the cue they want and I will get to keep my sanity (at least for one more day).

I don't (intentionally) build art, by today's standards. I build function.
Maybe we could call it functional-art. To me, the art is in the function.
Art WITHOUT function is the reason for putting cues in glass cases.

Lol, as far as a 31" Predator shaft, that was possible with the Gen1 series but not anymore. The Gen2 partial is 29-3/4" max. Most are 29-5/8".

Anyway Jim, thanx for your input. Always good to hear from you, even if it is virtual.
Click to expand...

Hi,

I agree with KJ about his philosophy. I would prefer to build and put the cue in someone's hand and be done with it. There are however some very smart players/customers out there that know exactly what they want and I love to accommodate them by hitting the weight and balance function without using an aft weight bolt. This is a chalange that I love to get up for because of the math function of it. It's like doing a crossword puzzle.

I have a practice and philosophy that believes that a cue should not have an aft weight bolt in it and each cue is unique to it's own set of wood components used. I drill and tap a 1/2 13 tpi weight bolt thread in my cues for a weight bolt but I don't put one in. If the customer want's to add one it is done pending the sale.

While I would rather build cues on my own specs. I do not turn down orders because they are custom. Why not do both. If they want some goofy color scheme or wood selections that clash, then I would steer them in a better direction because it does reflect you brand's style and form. Can't mess that up!

Like my high school gym coach aways said, "Be Good At All Sports"

Rick G
 
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Custom cue makers should require deposits, as once the customer sees that their color/design choices are awful (like you told them in the first place) they tend to change their minds... and then you're stuck with it. Cue makers who make what they want to make, and sell those cues to others who happen to like them, have no such problem.
 
People's definition of "Custom" will always vary, and have different interpretations.
That's why every previous discussion on this topic has ended without any type of resolution.
 
KJ Cues said:
Simply stated, I'm a cue-maker, not a custom cue-maker.
The way I see it, a CM builds the cues he wants to build to achieve the results that he wants in a cue. They're his cues and he can build them anyway he wants to.
A CCM builds the cues that he's paid and directed to build, to satisfy a client's request. That's all well & good but what if you as the builder don't agree with what the client wants? Are you being hypocritical by saying NO?
Secondly, would you put your name on it?

Your thoughts are welcome.
Click to expand...

You build cues, hopefully, based on a philosophy as to what you believe makes the best cue as you see it. A good example is SW cues. Go to them and ask them to build you a cue with 4 points, a steel joint and Delrin butt cap so it will be like a Joss. If that is the case you should be buying a Joss. Cue makers who try to be everything to every body are doing themselves a disservice. There can be cosmetic changes of course and even custom to a degree but the basic cue has to be the cue that that cue makers builds. The buyer should be going to the cue maker that shares their own ideas of what a cue should be.

I also think from a business stand point a cue maker is better served building cues of their own designs and offering them up for sale. taking commissions on cues can be very stressful and a commitment that can be hard to meet at times. Evidenced by all the threads about cue makers not answering phones and taking too long to complete cues. If you are any good you will sell every cue you build and what more can you ask. Abe Rich once told me, "Every time I finish a cue I am a richer man". Cues will sell if they are good and priced right, in fact they will beat a path to your door.
 
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scdiveteam said:
Hi,

I agree with KJ about his philosophy. I would prefer to build and put the cue in someone's hand and be done with it. There are however some very smart players/customers out there that know exactly what they want and I love to accommodate them by hitting the weight and balance function without using an aft weight bolt. This is a chalange that I love to get up for because of the math function of it. It's like doing a crossword puzzle.

I have a practice and philosophy that believes that a cue should not have an aft weight bolt in it and each cue is unique to it's own set of wood components used. I drill and tap a 1/2 13 tpi weight bolt thread in my cues for a weight bolt but I don't put one in. If the customer want's to add one it is done pending the sale.

While I would rather build cues on my own specs. I do not turn down orders because they are custom. Why not do both. If they want some goofy color scheme or wood selections that clash, then I would steer them in a better direction because it does reflect you brand's style and form. Can't mess that up!


Like my high school gym coach aways said, "Be Good At All Sports"

Rick G
Click to expand...

I'm with you on that....not much for adding metal to change the weight/balance esp in the back end, the wood does that.......that makes it like an ill thought out afterthought.
 
macguy said:
You build cues, hopefully, based on a philosophy as to what you believe makes the best cue as you see it. A good example is SW cues. Go to them and ask them to build you a cue with 4 points, a steel joint and Delrin butt cap so it will be like a Joss. If that is the case you should be buying a Joss. Cue makers who try to be everything to every body are doing themselves a disservice. There can be cosmetic changes of course and even custom to a degree but the basic cue has to be the cue that that cue makers builds. The buyer should be going to the cue maker that shares their own ideas of what a cue should be.

I also think from a business stand point a cue maker is better served building cues of their own designs and offering them up for sale. taking commissions on cues can be very stressful and a commitment that can be hard to meet at times. Evidenced by all the threads about cue makers not answering phones and taking too long to complete cues. If you are any good you will sell every cue you build and what more can you ask. Abe Rich once told me, "Every time I finish a cue I am a richer man". Cues will sell if they are good and priced right, in fact they will beat a path to your door.
Click to expand...

It amazes me that every cue that SW makes is the same design in different colors and woods. Is this really a "custom cue" or is it now a "production cue?" Then again, it also amazes me that they now have a 10 year waiting list. I think it's time to speed up production just a touch...
 
The situation at SW reflects the ignorance of the consumer , lotz of makers producing cues as good or better in much less time . most people who buy them are flippers . Does SW care about their customers ??? Action speaks louder than words . I 've ordered cues from them , 8 & 1/2 years waiting , got a call from Laurie and she jacked up the price . Is that good business ??? #@$** NO !!!!! They don't play as good as when Jerry made them ... If it plays good , who cares . CM or CCM , gimme a break ......:angry::boring2:
 
macguy said:
You build cues, hopefully, based on a philosophy as to what you believe makes the best cue as you see it. A good example is SW cues. Go to them and ask them to build you a cue with 4 points, a steel joint and Delrin butt cap so it will be like a Joss. If that is the case you should be buying a Joss. Cue makers who try to be everything to every body are doing themselves a disservice. There can be cosmetic changes of course and even custom to a degree but the basic cue has to be the cue that that cue makers builds. The buyer should be going to the cue maker that shares their own ideas of what a cue should be.

I also think from a business stand point a cue maker is better served building cues of their own designs and offering them up for sale. taking commissions on cues can be very stressful and a commitment that can be hard to meet at times. Evidenced by all the threads about cue makers not answering phones and taking too long to complete cues. If you are any good you will sell every cue you build and what more can you ask. Abe Rich once told me, "Every time I finish a cue I am a richer man". Cues will sell if they are good and priced right, in fact they will beat a path to your door.
Click to expand...

I feel just the opposite. A cue from a cue maker is much more expensive than a production cue. Originally, people had a custom cue made because they couldn't find a production cue that is built to their needs as far as length, weight, shaft taper, balance and butt width so they paid extra to have it made. I usually have a waiting list for cues and have quit building cues to just sell 3 or 4 years ago. I figure why build a cue and then try to find a buyer whom completely loves it. Usually they make the purchase but deep inside they would have liked to have some input in the design or woods or handle width and length and so on. It's for this reason that I build totally custom. The cue is sold before it's built and the customer gets exactly what he is looking for.

Dick
 
All good posts and thanx for your participation.
To address Sheldon's statement of no resolution, I'm not looking for resolution but rather discussion to seek a better understanding, by us, by the readers in general and possibly by potential buyers of cues.
Actually, I don't believe that resolution is to be had. The cue building trade is always in constant flux.

What I'd like to see come from this is a more educated buyer.
A buyer that knows what he wants then does his research to find a builder that builds the style of cue that he's seeking.
I sometimes wonder at buyers who come on here stating: I want this, this and this, so who's going to volunteer to build this cue.
To my way of thinking, that's the wrong way to go about buying/ordering a cue. It's a recipe for disaster. With that approach, he'll likely take the lowest bid and receive a cue that looks and plays like it came out of door #3.

No, this is not about resolution. It SHOULD be an ongoing discussion.
Let it continue.
 
Mr Hoppe said:
It amazes me that every cue that SW makes is the same design in different colors and woods. Is this really a "custom cue" or is it now a "production cue?" Then again, it also amazes me that they now have a 10 year waiting list. I think it's time to speed up production just a touch...
Click to expand...

"The Power of Branding and Urban Legend"

Ten year waiting list is like waiting to go on Bozo's Circus. If I had a 10 year waiting list I would train people to perform labor for individual component parts and I would do point/veneers, assembly and finishing. The 10 year list would start going down pronto.

When a contract or a deal is on the table it is smart to execute it ASAP. I am sure there are people who want a SW but don't order one cause of the wait.

Just my opinion,

Rick G
 
I'd say that's why their secondary market is so strong.
High money but if you're willing to pay it, no wait.
That in itself creates more demand in both markets.
Seems to be working fairly well.
 
Mr Hoppe said:
Custom cue makers should require deposits, as once the customer sees that their color/design choices are awful (like you told them in the first place) they tend to change their minds... and then you're stuck with it. Cue makers who make what they want to make, and sell those cues to others who happen to like them, have no such problem.
Click to expand...


I got a cheap cue through no deposit.
A guy ordered a custom cue to weigh 18 oz with a balance point where I like.
He asked for Australian Bloodwood to be the main wood in the forearm and butt. When it was made and he saw the rich colour of the wood, changed his mind.He obviously did not know what it really was.
I like the colour, as it is a match for my didgeridoo.
I asked about it when I was there, and could not get the money out of my pocket fast enough.
When I make a cue for someone,that has specific requests for wood types or a balance point away from what I would call normal, I demand a deposit.No deposit no cue.
If the cue has a normal balance point,the wood choices are something that a vast majority of people would like,I don't ask for a deposit.I just make it knowing that there is a high chance that someone else will also like this cue.
Just my thoughts.Neil
 
KJ Cues said:
Simply stated, I'm a cue-maker, not a custom cue-maker.
The way I see it, a CM builds the cues he wants to build to achieve the results that he wants in a cue. They're his cues and he can build them anyway he wants to.
A CCM builds the cues that he's paid and directed to build, to satisfy a client's request. That's all well & good but what if you as the builder don't agree with what the client wants? Are you being hypocritical by saying NO?
Secondly, would you put your name on it?

Your thoughts are welcome.
Click to expand...


I am a hobbyist who builds some cues for my local customers, don't think I will every be a Cue Maker or a Custom Cue Maker, because outside of what is posted above I think there is much more to the subject.

I kinda think Cue Makers and Custom Cue Makers are a level above my current skill set. I don't have the ability to make V-Spliced Points as yet, along with many other cue making techniques that are necessary to put me into either category. I prefer to do cue repair, I like the challenge of taking something that is broken or unusable and restoring it to usable condition. This is the main reason I have not moved forward with other construction methods that would add to my current skill level, and I doubt that I will ever change.

While all the cues / conversion cues I build are built to my own design, I give customers a choice of over all cue length, shaft diameter / length, weight along with woods that I will use. But the taper of the butt and the shaft along with the construction techniques are in most cases mine and mine alone. I am self taught and 90% of what I have learned has been by trial and error, all I can say is it has been interesting, frustrating, rewarding, and very very enjoyable and I would not change a thing even if I am never called a Cue Maker Custom or other wise.

KJ, I think this is a good thread I have enjoyed reading it buddy.

JIMO
 
I agree on the SW cues. Its called prestige pricing from a marketing standpoint. Price the product high. This will evoke the perception of high quality and consumers will associate your brand with quality. Well make it seem that everyone is wanting one(hence the waiting list) lower the volume =Big $. I totally agree with Dickie on the cuemaking part. There are some players that has been at it for years and know exactly what they want and need in order to get peak performance. I love certain woods but know that it may not be possible to achieve the specs that i like. But as a player i would sacrifice the woods to achieve the specs. It should be a service to the customer to let him know what can be achieved to get the specs he wants. But yes, there are different kinds of cuemakers. There are cuemakers that are into it to express their creativity,artistic design and their signature hit. Then there are those that are into it to improve quality, function or desired feel using their knowledge of how each material if put together in harmony will achieve what the customer wants.
 
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