Double Roll Out/Ten Ball

[Island Drive]

To make the game of rotation pool fair I highly recommend this rule change. Who said it was acceptable that only one player could roll out and the other player could not? I think both players should be able to roll out ONCE per game. Also, the new ten ball rule on the SW tour, when made on the break in the lower pockets, it's a respot or rebreak, I like it. NO one likes the hill/hill beat of the ten on the BRIZ.

 

[oldzilla]

To make the game of rotation pool fair I highly recommend this rule change. Who said it was acceptable that only one player could roll out and the other player could not? I think both players should be able to roll out ONCE per game. Also, the new ten ball rule on the SW tour, when made on the break in the lower pockets, it's a respot or rebreak, I like it. NO one likes the hill/hill beat of the ten on the BRIZ.

Yes, the rule is handy when a player is hooked so bad he needs to roll out for a better kick or jump even.
And if players are racking their own (which is good imo)then it shouldn't count if made on the break.

The US Open used the win by 2 rule in the semis and final this year.
I LIKE IT !

Personally I used it alot back when I matched up some.

 

[ironman]

To make the game of rotation pool fair I highly recommend this rule change. Who said it was acceptable that only one player could roll out and the other player could not? I think both players should be able to roll out ONCE per game. Also, the new ten ball rule on the SW tour, when made on the break in the lower pockets, it's a respot or rebreak, I like it. NO one likes the hill/hill beat of the ten on the BRIZ.

I go along with you here as far as the double push. In the old days of 2 shot push, this practice was fairly common. I feel that shooting balls in the pocket is becoming a lost art. Who can't get out with ball in hand.
There are too many parts of the game missing now. I love the hard shot and getting out. I just feel Texas Express has run it's course and has run the fans off too.
i also like spotting the 10 after the break when going in the two lower pockets. Rack manipulation a far too tolerated, but I don't have a good answer for that.

On another note: What i wish is that you would give a little more explanation with your ideas. We are close to the same age and I feel many don't know just how involved with this game you have been over the years or what a great 9 ball player you were. Your credentials are about as long as your reach!! LOL!

 

[Maniac]

To make the game of rotation pool fair I highly recommend this rule change. Who said it was acceptable that only one player could roll out and the other player could not? I think both players should be able to roll out ONCE per game. Also, the new ten ball rule on the SW tour, when made on the break in the lower pockets, it's a respot or rebreak, I like it. NO one likes the hill/hill beat of the ten on the BRIZ.

Yes, I agree a 1 push-out per player per game rule would be a nice addition. And, if we're going to eliminate luck, no one should be able to win by sinking the 10-ball on the break. Also, why not 15-ball rotation? Why not put more traffic on the table to challenge the top players (you know, the ones that make 9 and 10-ball look too easy)? It seems like every time a new rule is made on rotation games, they serve no other purpose other than to speed the game up. Now, (imo) the games go too FAST! And....if it's for the purpose of making pool more television friendly, well.......television ain't what it's gonna take to "save" the game (again imo).

Maniac

 

[ironman]

Yes, I agree a 1 push-out per player per game rule would be a nice addition. And, if we're going to eliminate luck, no one should be able to win by sinking the 10-ball on the break. Also, why not 15-ball rotation? Why not put more traffic on the table to challenge the top players (you know, the ones that make 9 and 10-ball look too easy)? It seems like every time a new rule is made on rotation games, they serve no other purpose other than to speed the game up. Now, (imo) the games go too FAST! And....if it's for the purpose of making pool more television friendly, well.......television ain't what it's gonna take to "save" the game (again imo).

Maniac

I will agree that TV coverage is irrelevant.

 

[Maniac]

There are too many parts of the game missing now. I love the hard shot and getting out. I just feel Texas Express has run it's course and has run the fans off too.
i also like spotting the 10 after the break when going in the two lower pockets. Rack manipulation a far too tolerated, but I don't have a good answer for that.

Texas Express rules have leveled out the playing field, and for the worse, imo. Nowadays, any "B" player (and some "C" players) can accidently hook a better player , get ball in hand and run the rack out. The rules should not allow this. Too many times sheer luck plays a part in who wins a particular game/match.

Maniac

 

[Island Drive]

Yes, I agree a 1 push-out per player per game rule would be a nice addition. And, if we're going to eliminate luck, no one should be able to win by sinking the 10-ball on the break. Also, why not 15-ball rotation? Why not put more traffic on the table to challenge the top players (you know, the ones that make 9 and 10-ball look too easy)? It seems like every time a new rule is made on rotation games, they serve no other purpose other than to speed the game up. Now, (imo) the games go too FAST! And....if it's for the purpose of making pool more television friendly, well.......television ain't what it's gonna take to "save" the game (again imo).

Maniac

You can't eliminate luck from life, it is and will always be a crap shoot even as we walk out the door each day, or stay inside hoping an earthquake won't happen as we run outside and get hit by a falling tree/builiding next door.:wink:

15 ball rotation is a great game, yet too difficult for the public eye, maybe down the road. 15ball even seems more difficult than snooker on 12 footers and the luck of the layout of 15 ball break may be too large. The game is finally evolving ''is what's really going'' on and it's only because of the excessive play/ability from countries other than the USA thats its starting to get bette.

Ten on the break in the upper pockets takes a really good player to hit em that square, on real fast cloth it's easier, tho in an event like the US Open, the cloth has usually slowed/gotten dirty enough to make this real difficult as the event winds down. I somewhat compare 10 on the break to a hole in one in golf, it adds excitement and that component of unpredictablilty that sports bring to us and our lives.

 

[Island Drive]

I go along with you here as far as the double push. In the old days of 2 shot push, this practice was fairly common. I feel that shooting balls in the pocket is becoming a lost art. Who can't get out with ball in hand.
There are too many parts of the game missing now. I love the hard shot and getting out. I just feel Texas Express has run it's course and has run the fans off too.
i also like spotting the 10 after the break when going in the two lower pockets. Rack manipulation a far too tolerated, but I don't have a good answer for that.

On another note: What i wish is that you would give a little more explanation with your ideas. We are close to the same age and I feel many don't know just how involved with this game you have been over the years or what a great 9 ball player you were. Your credentials are about as long as your reach!! LOL!

I talked with Jay H. on facebook and he liked the idea each player getting "one roll out per rack". Let's say you haven't taken your roll out and there are two balls left on the table, now you have options, much like golf when you got a bad roll and are sitting behind a tree. You could roll out to the difficult cut shot and give it back to you oponnent, if your oponnent has already used up their roll out matters get interesting. Try it in your next event, if successful call it, ''Texas Two Step''

On another note: I'm working on playing in the Open next yr and if matters progress I'll be there, you might even see me in TX before then. My goal, finish 16-24 anything else is gravy.

 

[Island Drive]

Bump...........................

 

[stljohnny]

I will openly admit that I am not familiar with the full history of the game and all it's changes over the years, but given that, I do not believe a double-roll-out rule is necessary.

Luck is a part of every game, which seems to me why the initial push-out after the break was brought in. It's really the only time during the game where it's left 100% to chance. If a player misses a ball and hooks the incoming player, that's unfortunate, but part of the game. If that is unacceptable, then why not use the SBE rules where the incoming player has the option to pass it back? I'd be in favor of that over a 2nd roll out, absolutely. At least then, you're forcing your opponent to deal with the mess they left. Although, the downside to that is it takes away the entire idea of playing a 2-way shot. So, while it does remove the luck, it also takes something away from the strategic sense of the game. There's not much strategy involved in rotation games anyway - in the sense of forcing your opponent to make a mistake I mean (re: one pocket).

If I play a great lock-up saftey, but the incoming player can just roll out, what's the point? I can see the strategic element you mention, but I'm just not sure it's needed.

 

[Island Drive]

I will openly admit that I am not familiar with the full history of the game and all it's changes over the years, but given that, I do not believe a double-roll-out rule is necessary.

Luck is a part of every game, which seems to me why the initial push-out after the break was brought in. It's really the only time during the game where it's left 100% to chance. If a player misses a ball and hooks the incoming player, that's unfortunate, but part of the game. If that is unacceptable, then why not use the SBE rules where the incoming player has the option to pass it back? I'd be in favor of that over a 2nd roll out, absolutely. At least then, you're forcing your opponent to deal with the mess they left. Although, the downside to that is it takes away the entire idea of playing a 2-way shot. So, while it does remove the luck, it also takes something away from the strategic sense of the game. There's not much strategy involved in rotation games anyway - in the sense of forcing your opponent to make a mistake I mean (re: one pocket).

If I play a great lock-up saftey, but the incoming player can just roll out, what's the point? I can see the strategic element you mention, but I'm just not sure it's needed.[/QUOTE

I've gotten beat many times from a REAL lucky kick shot and I'm sure many out there have gotten beat MANY times by the jump cue, let those players say they like it, its just, WHY should only ONE player (breaker) be able to roll out?? Maybe the breaker should not be able to roll out, would that make it fair? It's almost like saying the breaker should have so much control he'd never be hooked after the break, we know that answer, but I think this is a point of valid discussion amongst the pros of today.

I wish someone (Ironman?) would try it once and give us some feedback, who would of thought 10 ball would replace 9Ball, and who would of thought the SWTour would implement....ten in the foot pockets spot or rerack/rebreak, but they do work well. I've traveled a thousand miles before to an event and gotten "beat by the break" more than once, it takes the FUN out of the sport for the player who's invested his time and money.

 

[stljohnny]

A kick that pockets the intended ball is a good shot, just as if a player pockets a ball with a jump shot, that's a good shot - the result of lots of practice. Of course any sort of multi-ball collision that produces a pocket was purely luck - and that does happen; but so does hitting an open shot sooooo badly that it banks to another pocket or caroms/combos another ball in. It's not restricted to just being hooked.

However, I dont think I follow your argument at all. You're saying the break is a problem because the breaker can roll out? At the same time you're arguing that the other player should be able to roll out - right? So, what exactly is your stance? If you take the roll out away from the breaker, then the incoming player has no choice but to kick/jump. That's entirely unfair to that person.

Also - you ask why does only the breaker have the roll out option - they don't. If the breaker doesn't make a ball, they can't roll out - the incoming player has that option. So, both players have the roll out option.

Let's do this: Are you suggesting the roll-out is an advantage? To the breaker? To the other player?

If both players had a roll out per rack, to be used at any time, it's highly unlikely either of them would use it after the break, so right off the bat you're kicking/jumping/giving up bih. What does that do to get the game going? Not too much.

I do not think the 10 ball should count on the break though; in that I think we agree.

 

[Maniac]

Ten on the break in the upper pockets takes a really good player to hit em that square, on real fast cloth it's easier, tho in an event like the US Open, the cloth has usually slowed/gotten dirty enough to make this real difficult as the event winds down. I somewhat compare 10 on the break to a hole in one in golf, it adds excitement and that component of unpredictablilty that sports bring to us and our lives.

[.

I wish someone (Ironman?) would try it once and give us some feedback, who would of thought 10 ball would replace 9Ball, and who would of thought the SWTour would implement....ten in the foot pockets spot or rerack/rebreak, but they do work well. I've traveled a thousand miles before to an event and gotten "beat by the break" more than once, it takes the FUN out of the sport for the player who's invested his time and money.

I'm confused Bill. Are you for or against the 10-ball made on the break as a win? I don't like the idea of a ball made on the break in ANY pocket billiards game counting as a win. A person should never have to lose a hard-fought hill-hill match to be beaten by a shot that is pure luck, imo. Pocketing balls is the object of the game, so let's have to "pocket" balls (not one, single ball) in order to win the game.

stljohnny, I like the SBE rule where the incoming player can give the table back on a shot where he/she was hooked accidently (or if they just want to give it back for whatever reason). I like the idea though that if "safety" is called prior to the shot being made, the incoming player would not have the option of giving the table back. This rule removes a lot of players getting beat by blind luck.

Maniac

 

[Island Drive]

A kick that pockets the intended ball is a good shot, just as if a player pockets a ball with a jump shot, that's a good shot - the result of lots of practice. Of course any sort of multi-ball collision that produces a pocket was purely luck - and that does happen; but so does hitting an open shot sooooo badly that it banks to another pocket or caroms/combos another ball in. It's not restricted to just being hooked.

However, I dont think I follow your argument at all. You're saying the break is a problem because the breaker can roll out? At the same time you're arguing that the other player should be able to roll out - right? So, what exactly is your stance? If you take the roll out away from the breaker, then the incoming player has no choice but to kick/jump. That's entirely unfair to that person.

Also - you ask why does only the breaker have the roll out option - they don't. If the breaker doesn't make a ball, they can't roll out - the incoming player has that option. So, both players have the roll out option.

Let's do this: Are you suggesting the roll-out is an advantage? To the breaker? To the other player?

If both players had a roll out per rack, to be used at any time, it's highly unlikely either of them would use it after the break, so right off the bat you're kicking/jumping/giving up bih. What does that do to get the game going? Not too much.

I do not think the 10 ball should count on the break though; in that I think we agree.

I think Each player should get One roll out per rack in 10 ball, this will allow players to be WAY more agressive instead of going into a stack/cluster in a passive manner/or playing shape for a safe because of the risk of not being perfect. It allows the players to attack the table and its layout. There's nothing better than seeing Sigel go four rails and dig out three balls and finish his run. When ball in hand nine ball first came into being there was NO roll out for the breaker, so they changed the rules because players thought you should NOT be penalized being the breaker and kicking at the low ball.

 

[Sw10balltour]

I really can't see implementing two pushouts in ten ball. Even though I'm not having many show up for the events yet it still takes a while to finish an 11 person tournament. With ten ball you rarely see a break and run but you do see the ten pocketed on the break frequently. I added the option of rebreaking for the simple fact that the shooter is not rewarded for pocketing it on the snap, but he shouldn't be punished for being snookered on the break in the same manner.
I'm open to all kinds of suggestions to improving my tournaments. I want it to be fair so everyone feels like they have a chance. That's why I have alternating breaks. I was told to start a break and run pot. Sell $1 chances and if I draw your name you get a chance to break and win part of the money. What do you think on that? It would be a traveling pot. If no one wins it goes to the next event. Hopefully to get folks to follow the tour.
I thought about handicapping players to draw more average players so they would have a decent chance at winning oplacing in the money. On the other hand I don't won't the a+ players to not show because of the handicapping.
2nd chance tournaments? Can't do that til enough people show up for the first chance. I'm gonna get this down eventually.

 

[Island Drive]

I really can't see implementing two pushouts in ten ball. Even though I'm not having many show up for the events yet it still takes a while to finish an 11 person tournament. With ten ball you rarely see a break and run but you do see the ten pocketed on the break frequently. I added the option of rebreaking for the simple fact that the shooter is not rewarded for pocketing it on the snap, but he shouldn't be punished for being snookered on the break in the same manner.
I'm open to all kinds of suggestions to improving my tournaments. I want it to be fair so everyone feels like they have a chance. That's why I have alternating breaks. I was told to start a break and run pot. Sell $1 chances and if I draw your name you get a chance to break and win part of the money. What do you think on that? It would be a traveling pot. If no one wins it goes to the next event. Hopefully to get folks to follow the tour.
I thought about handicapping players to draw more average players so they would have a decent chance at winning oplacing in the money. On the other hand I don't won't the a+ players to not show because of the handicapping.
2nd chance tournaments? Can't do that til enough people show up for the first chance. I'm gonna get this down eventually.

I liked your event/rules/format allot, wish it was implemented in my prime. The break pot, Nah. But if you get a chance and the players are willing to try the roll out please let me know how it went, can't hurt. For clarification, each player, each game can roll out one time/anytime, not just the breaker and not just after the break ''ANYTIME'', if allot of balls were tied up and the run was not likely, I would love to have the opportunity to move whitey into a cluster and if I got the worst of it I'd be able to go to plan B, if I did get a good break out I would definitely go after any other clusters with the same thought process. Players will start playing better and get used to going into tied up ball groupings and in turn learn more and become better, nowadays they just duck and are UNWILLING to take a chance. Breaking up difficult table cluster lay outs are a beautiful thing, even more so when you get on out.

 

[dabarbr]

Bill, I like your idea of each player have a an opportunity with a push out. You'll probably see many players kick at balls early in the game to preserve their push out for end game or when needed. Other changes can come as time goes by because many don't like too many changes at one time. I like the idea. Do they have earthquakes in Colorado?

 

[Sw10balltour]

What about calling the ten? Is that something to add or leave the rules like they are?

 

[Island Drive]

What about calling the ten? Is that something to add or leave the rules like they are?

I'd ask the players.........................whatever works best for the sport.

 

[Island Drive]

Bill, I like your idea of each player have a an opportunity with a push out. You'll probably see many players kick at balls early in the game to preserve their push out for end game or when needed. Other changes can come as time goes by because many don't like too many changes at one time. I like the idea. Do they have earthquakes in Colorado?

I was told that back in the day, when you were born, there was a HUGE earthquake and out popped the Rockies/baseball that is .
Not much if any, they did have some rumblings as of late in WY, but in my 35yrs here nope. Now if they start that exploration for gas in the mtns, all bets are off. Any thing new about SC?