Why is the APA so frowned upon?

[Big Perm]

Apa is great for a group of friends that play a little pool, like to have a drink, and relax that could care less or give a crap about fairness and/or going to Vegas.....if you just want to have fun and lose a lot, it's a good time....



APA Masters is actually pretty fun....enjoyed it both in Florida and here...

Otherwise, APA sucks.....I have yet to see an LO throw out a player for blatant sandbagging, and everywhere I have been, there are too many easy examples they just glaze over and look the other way.....

 

[1on1pooltournys]

No league offers as much to gain as the APA. There are so many ways to get to Vegas and so many ways to make some money. All I hear is that it's "slop pool" and "everyone is overrated" from the local players that don't want to join. My counter to the first is always "Well the pro's don't call their shots", to which they usually reply "Well no one in it is a pro, are they?" I play in TAP also and yeah, almost everyone in TAP is rated a skill level below what they would be in the APA but if everyone is overrated, how is that unfair?

Because it is the worst league and bad for pool

 

[Lance Link]

My comments are directed at those APA league players who think they should get local payback, not winning prize money at the national events. Remember, most of the complaints seem to be directed at the local LO, who "steals" all the weekly money and doesn't pay anything back to the players (which, for the most part, is incorrect). Speaking from that perspective, what I said is 100% correct. Some APA LO's pay back tens of thousands of dollars back to their players, exclusive of trips to the nationals. Others don't. Either way, when I became an LO, the national office stressed that the APA was NOT a payback league (although each LO is free to do whatever they choose).

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

Ok... We get it... It's a franchise. It has every right to make it's money however they choose..

Fair enough...

But your above highlighted statement in itself is why most people are dissatisfied with the APA.

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Originally posted by Ridinda9 :
You say the APA was "never intended to be a payback league . . .not 30 years ago , and not now . . ."
Yet that is exactly what the APA is implying in it's advertisements to lure new players in .
"OVER $1,000,000 IN PRIZES!" blare their posters . Is not the potential of the cash payday the hook they use to lure in new players ?
"Everyone can play , & anyone can win!"
Sounds just like the lottery . . . .
Maybe the National Office and the Local LO's never intended it to payback , but that's not the way they represent it in advertising to hook the Newbies .
Yep , us jaded old hands at this know better , but how long did it take for us to become jaded and realize how the league truly operates?

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It seems that the APA is only intent on keeping it's shareholders well-fed. And that's fine. If they've developed a system that continues to generate revenue for them on a consistent basis, then all the best for them...

Even at the expense of the new players that are promised things they will never receive...

But I continue to read APA post after APA post pertaining to 'sandbagging' and 'disqualifications'. Even people that have responded to this thread have noted that they needed teammates to lose games so that they could continue to play as a team. It's not an anomoly, it's a constant, and it's an issue that should be addressed. But to change the current system might not sit well with the shareholders.

A league system that breaks a team up for skill levels raising ? From a player standpoint, that sucks !!! From a shareholder standpoint... Ka-Ching !!!

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But, in all honesty, I have to continue to support the BCA, particularly since I became a member here.

If I ever want opinions of the CEO from my organization, I can always find him on this forum.

 

[oneshotwiss]

Because slop counts

 

[cheapcues.com]

I didn't read the whole thread and don't care to, but here are a couple thoughts that perhaps haven't been thrown out there:

1. Slop counts in golf, baseball, basketball, soccer, volleyball, tennis, football, waterpolo, horseshoes, and hand grenades, and 9 BALL

2. Someone early in the thread said they have never met any good players in the APA. Clearly that person has never met Bob Zack, Mike Stevens and Steve Lingelbach.

 

[mdlee3]

I've got limited experience in the APA. I played for 2 years, but had to quit a couple years ago because my work schedule changed. I had a lot of fun, which I think should be the real reason to join a league. The rules didn't bother me so much, especially the "slop rule" as I play 9-ball so slop counts anyway. I never understood why people complain about that rule anyway. If somebody plays slop, then more than likely they won't leave themselves the way they probably should leave themselves on the next shot or, if they actually depend on slop going in, they will miss more often than not. These factors give somebody with at least a little understanding of position play an advantage in the long run.

About the payout, while it wasn't great, it wasn't that bad either. I also compete in a bowling league and the payout the payout their isn't great either, but that's not why I do it. It is nice to get a little bit back, but it's more like getting a discount for competing in the league, not trying to actually make money. I can't remember exactly what we made as a team in my APA leagues. In bowling, we bowl 36 weeks and pay $10 a week plus a $16 sanctioning fee. Of the $10 each week, $6.75 goes to the bowling alley, $0.50 goes into the youth bowling fund for the association, and $2.75 goes into the prize fund. On top of that, the bowling alley chips in so much extra money if we have 10 teams and then more money for each team over 10. This year, we have 14 teams so I think we should have about $2200 added to the prize fund his year. Last year, we had 10 teams and my team got back $560 for a 1st place finish. It's a 4-man team meaning we each got back $140 after paying $360 or $376 counting the sanctioning fee.

Now I know the bowling part of this is off-topic, but I feel it's a good comparison in terms of what leagues are good for. Clearly, I don't play in a bowling league for the money. The money comes from tournaments, which is where the money comes from in pool also. I can't actually speak for the APA now as I only have a couple of years experience with it and I had a good time, had a good LO, and only played 9-ball. Maybe if I played 8-ball, my view on the rules would be different, but I didn't so the rules that most pople complain about don't bother me. Basically what it should come down to as how you feel about your experiences. I feel badly for the people that had had a bad experience in the APA or any other league, but for everybody that's had a bad experience, there is somebody else that's had a great experience. It just so happens that the bad experiences tend to stand out more because people that have had bad experiences seem to talk about them more than the people with good experiences.

 

[Mr. Wiggles]

Apa

When I played it was sponsored by Busch. Sandbagging was rampant. Handicaps were 2-7 and you raced to that number. The only honest players were the 6's and 7's, they really just couldn't go up. A 7 would average 2.2 innings per game, thats pretty sporty. I was a 6 and would always shoot more innings than anybody because I played defense. Sometimes 30 innings. Max was 41 against another 6. All the 3's and 4's were trying to get the magic number(8 12 14 whatever) and had a hard time doing it. Good players plalyed the 4th or 5th match late at night, damm 4's would leave and be home at 8 and I am still waiting. Lots of better players will not play apa, its just too easy and all the better players play BCA. Ours now is called EXCELL. 5 people play 5 people. You get to play the others teams weakest and strongest player. Lots of times in APA you would play the same player every time you played that team. BORING. Many down south here feel BCA is something you graduate to from APA. A hero in APA sometimes gets his head handed to him in a basket in BCA. New players probably would have more fun in APA. If you just want to play, APA is fine. If you want to improve, move on. Don't get me wrong BCA does have some weak players here and there, but they are getting better and they know it.

 

[Ctwitty]

starting at a higher skill level

Already tried. Everyone starts as a 4 (Four). First two weeks I guess. Must be in the APA rule book somewhere. Incidentally, thanks for the nice comment. Hope I enjoy my every other week as much as my regular three nights of BCAPL. I'll let you folks know.

Lyn

Hi Lyn, it is not an APA rule that a player must start at a 4 the first two weeks. Known players are started at a higher skill level. The only time
that they are not is when someone puts them on a team roster one night and the lo knows nothing about it. Enjoy

 

[JesseAllred]

I played a session in a league, won twice as many games as the second place guy and broke even, that means everyone else lost money. Not to mention the mental anguish of having to sit around all night watching everyone sabotage themselves with the same mistakes they've been making for 20 years. It is a place to glorify mediocrity. If all these players would stop messing around and do nothing but drills 2 hours a day for 6 months they would actually learn something. Is it human nature to want to be a beginner year after year, joining a group so they can complain about another dogged ball, another failed runout and everyone pats each other on the back and says well, it's a difficult game, we're really just here for FUN, learning takes a long time, so it's okay that we keep wasting our time making the same mistake over and over. A lot of people say they play leagues for the practice. There's not much practice in playing several games and sitting around the rest of the night.

A good example of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result. I would hope some of these league players would want to join us in the sane world sometime and get good at this game.

 

[justadub]

If all these players would stop messing around and do nothing but drills 2 hours a day for 6 months they would actually learn something.

No disrespect intended, but seriously? Yup, I would LOVE to have 2 hours a day, every day, to practice. I bet there are some other league players that would like to as well. (Though certainly not all league players...) Sadly I have a pesky little employment obligation, a family obligation, and no table at home or the ability to have one at home. I am quite certain that most league players are in the same boat. 2 hours a day? Good for you, you have plenty of free time on your hands.

Is it human nature to want to be a beginner year after year, joining a group so they can complain about another dogged ball, another failed runout and everyone pats each other on the back and says well, it's a difficult game, we're really just here for FUN, learning takes a long time, so it's okay that we keep wasting our time making the same mistake over and over.

I think it's human nature to want to have fun. I also think it's OK for people to not have the same drive about the sport that you have. Do you insinuate that if someone isn't serious enough to find a way to practice 2 hours a day they shouldn't play at all, let alone have fun doing it, no matter how good or awful they are? Pretty elitist, aren't we?

A lot of people say they play leagues for the practice. There's not much practice in playing several games and sitting around the rest of the night.

I play pretty much all night on league night, save for taking a turn at keeping score, or when I lose my turn at the practice table. Too bad it isn't like this everywhere, but there are many leagues that allow practice tables for the evening.

A good example of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result.

Agreed.

I would hope some of these league players would want to join us in the sane world sometime and get good at this game.

I believe there are league players attempting to do so. It's just that there are SO MANY league players, the numbers of recreational players will outnumber those who are trying to get better. Sorry about that. I bet the pool halls arent't sorry about it, though.

It's too bad that leagues get such a black eye when there are so many people participating in them every week. Every type of league, not just APA. They get people playing pool. That can't be bad, can it?

 

[cardiac kid]

Hi Lyn, it is not an APA rule that a player must start at a 4 the first two weeks. Known players are started at a higher skill level. The only time
that they are not is when someone puts them on a team roster one night and the lo knows nothing about it. Enjoy

I've played two weeks now. The LO allowed me to start as a 7. My first week, the opposing captain argued with my captain about me playing as a 7. He was sure I'd have to start as a 4. I beat his best guy 5 - 0 with two break and runs and an 8 ball run. At nights end, he came over, shook my hand and said wow!

Because of my schedule, my captain is allowing me to arrive around 9 PM. We are usually in the third round when I arrive so my wait is short. I'll see how things are going in a couple more weeks. So far, it's just another set of rules. Happily, haven't forgot to mark my eight ball pocket yet!

Lyn

 

[JesseAllred]

It's too bad that leagues get such a black eye when there are so many people participating in them every week. Every type of league, not just APA. They get people playing pool. That can't be bad, can it?

you're right. very well written response, and most of your comments were what I always tell myself is correct. I am trying to understand that most people just want to have fun and don't have the desire or ability to focus and obsess about a game. I was directing my negative comments at the people who complain year after year about wanting to get better and don't do anything about it. I almost deleted my post before posting, realizing how elitist and harsh it sounded, but don't have the wisdom of some of my heroes, like Efren, who realize how the pool world works and accept it.

 

[justadub]

you're right. very well written response, and most of your comments were what I always tell myself is correct. I am trying to understand that most people just want to have fun and don't have the desire or ability to focus and obsess about a game. I was directing my negative comments at the people who complain year after year about wanting to get better and don't do anything about it. I almost deleted my post before posting, realizing how elitist and harsh it sounded, but don't have the wisdom of some of my heroes, like Efren, who realize how the pool world works and accept it.

Fair enough. And back to your point, even though I'm kinda new to the world of pool, I too wonder how some of the people in my league have stayed at their low handicaps all these years. (Beyond the usual sandbagging accusations, of course. I play with these people all the time, in and out of league. Believe me, they ain't sandbagging to stay at their level! ) So I do understand your point. Maybe after I've been playing as long as they have I'll understand it better, but right now I am really motivated to get better.

Have a great evening!

 

[JDB]

...I too wonder how some of the people in my league have stayed at their low handicaps all these years...

Some (most really) people don't really take pool seriously. That is the reason you see people staying at the same handicap for years. Why do people see that as such as bad thing; they just want to play.

I, like you, want to improve, so I have practiced in order to get better. That doesn't make me better than anyone else, just better at pool.

The issue for most people is that there is a finite period of time to handle numerous things in life (career, family, other priorities, etc). Therefore, pool is not always the priority.

I mean seriously, should I spend the extra time on my career where I can earn a lot of money with the extra time and effort or should I put the effort in pool that will get me essentially nothing but a few dollars here and there.

Just another perspective.

 

[Banks]

There are just about as many reasons as why not to eat at different restaurants as there are as to playing in different leagues.

Our area APA is pretty good. It is run as a F/T business (as they are meant to be) and has multiple employees, an office, etc. Just like a doctor, just because they can do it at a lower price does not mean they will. After all, they have to get back their start-up costs and business costs, not to mention wages. As I've said before, you couldn't pay me enough to run a tournament and deal with all of the whining.

I've seen more laughing and smiling in APA than I have in BCA, because BCA tends to be more serious and competitive.

Our area also hosts a huge weekend campout every summer, which includes all food (chicken, steak, burgers, breakfast, etc), I think we went through something like 7 kegs and at least a couple of bottles of tequila (not including what everybody brought!), sodas, water, juice, big and small prizes (top prize was a flat screen) and umm.. probably some other stuff I don't remember (too busy fishing, swimming, eating and drinking).

I was bummed in the summer when Bob Zack didn't show up that night to play my team, though he was probably lucky.

 

[cardiac kid]

I've played two weeks now. The LO allowed me to start as a 7. My first week, the opposing captain argued with my captain about me playing as a 7. He was sure I'd have to start as a 4. I beat his best guy 5 - 0 with two break and runs and an 8 ball run. At nights end, he came over, shook my hand and said wow!

Because of my schedule, my captain is allowing me to arrive around 9 PM. We are usually in the third round when I arrive so my wait is short. I'll see how things are going in a couple more weeks. So far, it's just another set of rules. Happily, haven't forgot to mark my eight ball pocket yet!

Lyn

Here's an update on my APA adventure. Just finished my seventh week of play. Lost one game so far. Accidently sank the eight out of turn. Most of my opponents have been complimentary rather than angry. Apparently I started too late in the season to qualify for April Nationals. I'll fall one week short (9 matches). Our last qualifier is December 11th. Might try to sub on a different night.

Saw another APA bashing thread this morning. I read the information pack the national office sent me. It says right there the APA is not about league paybacks. It is about a free trip to Vegas if you qualify either in singles or team. Guess it will never end!

Lyn

 

[Maniac]

Saw another APA bashing thread this morning. I read the information pack the national office sent me. It says right there the APA is not about league paybacks. It is about a free trip to Vegas if you qualify either in singles or team. Guess it will never end!

Lyn

Something about pool acronyms just seem to get the debate juices flowing. You know, the ones like APA, CTE, BHE, etc.

Glad to hear that you are both enjoying and doing well in your league.

Maniac

 

[The Renfro]

My beef with the APA is that professional pool's only hope is to grow a tour out of a grass roots effort. The APA would have been the perfect tool for that to happen. Instead of hosting a pro tour or pro stops Hubbert and Bell line their pockets which is their right I guess.

Their very existence will make it very very hard for someone to start a new league system that ties the sport from the bottom to the top like tennis and golf have done.

My hat is off to Mark Griffiin for even trying with the new USAPL I hope 5 years from now his league is everywhere and everyone can say APwhat?

 

[cheapcues.com]

Here's an update on my APA adventure. Just finished my seventh week of play. Lost one game so far. Accidently sank the eight out of turn. Most of my opponents have been complimentary rather than angry. Apparently I started too late in the season to qualify for April Nationals. I'll fall one week short (9 matches). Our last qualifier is December 11th. Might try to sub on a different night.

Saw another APA bashing thread this morning. I read the information pack the national office sent me. It says right there the APA is not about league paybacks. It is about a free trip to Vegas if you qualify either in singles or team. Guess it will never end!

Lyn

TAP TAP TAP I don't know why everyone is so obsessed with payouts- enter tournaments or hustle if you want to make money, otherwise leagues are there for recreational play, period. If you go into it with that mindset you can only be pleasantly surprised.

 

[Ctwitty]

league

My beef with the APA is that professional pool's only hope is to grow a tour out of a grass roots effort. The APA would have been the perfect tool for that to happen. Instead of hosting a pro tour or pro stops Hubbert and Bell line their pockets which is their right I guess.

Their very existence will make it very very hard for someone to start a new league system that ties the sport from the bottom to the top like tennis and golf have done.

My hat is off to Mark Griffiin for even trying with the new USAPL I hope 5 years from now his league is everywhere and everyone can say APwhat?

Yeah, it's all the APA's fault that the PROs can't make their money. what a freaking joke. The pros don't make the game of pool, it's the average joe that wants to have some fun and a night out. You know the guy that actually spends his or her own money to buy cues and all the other accessories that go with it. He doesn't have a sponsor paying his way and providing equipment and whining when they don't. The APA has spent a tremendous amount of money sponsoring the pros. So, STOP BEING SO JEALOUS AND SUCH A HATER, and if they are pros they will survive.
Congratulations to Larry and Terry for their induction into the
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