Local pool hall asked me to run league and tourneys. Little help & Questions

Keeb , this is a great thing you are doing , and getting kids involved in our sport is its only path to survival .
As far as advice , go with your initial instinct . Avoid APA , because you truly don't want to teach kids their bastardized rules .
USAPL is probably your best bet , and Mark has already offered you support from the National Office .*
Run those weekly tourneys HONEST , and you'll have to beat the crowds back with a stick . . .
After a few months of good crowds for that , maybe you can get Fast Eddies to pop for a few quarterly 'value added' events . Then you'll know what headaches REALLY are . . . .
Good Luck with it , Keeb , you're doing the right thing for the right reasons !:cool:



*and how many "other" national corporation's CEO's would take the time to do that ?:smile:
 
greyghost said:
Thanks for the advice......I did find that a nice fact from the USAPL website about how in 2.4million matches 70% went hill/hill if this is true then their claims on sandbag protection and even game, it must be a good system.
Click to expand...

Not necessarily. A good sandbagger (or even a novice sandbagger if the system is horrible) wants a hill-hill match and can get one every time. Maybe it's just easy with this system.
 
Mark Griffin said:
TCIndepMo
"I also like the fact that the USAPL is a supporter of the PRO tour........."

What "PRO tour"?

----------------------------------------------------------------

Nothing happens overnight.
USAPL (a division of CSI) has been up and running for awhile. We have divisions all over the country.

The 'pro pot' factor now has $6,808 dollars in it (as of 1-3-2011).
Granted this is not a lot of money - but it is a start.
We have new leagues forming all the time and when we get some more activity, we will start posting it on our site.

The ocncept is that if we get 10,000 members playing every week, we will have $5,000 per week to add to help develope a pro tour and events. Once we hit a certain level and the pros start seeing the results - and they endorse what we are doing - we should get more growth which will put more money in to the pro pot fund.

This is a little more difficult than most understand. We are not a franchise - but licensing agreements cost money and must be properly done. All of this takes time.

An importnat thing to know: The money will not disappear. This is a real business model that does function. We have put our name on it!

If anyone wants some info, please contact us at 702-719-7665. mark Estes is the guy to ask for on USAPL issues.

Mark Griffin, CEO
CSI - BCAPL - UASAPL
Click to expand...

Gets my vote... I encouraged my local APA operator to check it out with the caveat of if he wasn't interested I will be =)
 
FLICKit said:
1 additional HUGE BONUS of the USAPL is that teams that exceed the team limit are not forced to be broken up and are not denied the ability to play. There is no rigidly enforced 23 or 25 team limit. Teams over the team limit may play as normal. The USAPL system applies penalty points for exceeding the team limit. If a team is too far over the team limit, then eventually those penalty points will overwhelm any chance of them winning.
Click to expand...

So you're saying that it's possible for a team to get too good, and the USAPL system penalizes them for being too strong? Is that because the USAPL doesn't want dominant teams? How is that different from a hard limit, where you lose all of your points for the night?

Just to be clear, you are ALLOWED to break the 23 rule in the APA, you just get penalized for it. Do it enough and eventually the penalties will overwhelm any chance of your team winning. Sound familiar? It should, just look at the bottom of what I quoted.

The USAPL system does the same thing the other systems do. As a matter of fact, that aspect of the system (penalizing dominant teams to the point where they are not competitive) should be touted as a good quality of the system. You have to do that for a handicap system to work, as dominant teams will kill the league. But don't try to sell it as a positive in the USAPL system and claim it's a HUGE negative in the others. That's just double-talk.
 
I think the best thing to do would be to have 2 different adult leagues, one that could cater to both the less-skilled/casual player and one that would cater to the more serious player. That would also allow players from one to move to the other if they find the one that they are in is not necessarily what they were looking for (or for the less-skilled to have aspirations for the more serious league).

The straight pool sounds like a great idea for the younger kids. The rules are more simple and straight-forward. Not to mention that it would be funny to watch one of the adults try to match/beat the high run of a kid and fail. :eek:
 
APA Operator said:
Not necessarily. A good sandbagger (or even a novice sandbagger if the system is horrible) wants a hill-hill match and can get one every time. Maybe it's just easy with this system.
Click to expand...

Of course, maybe you're just assuming wrongly. Just maybe...

Having a lil fun.
 
Keeb...I think that the USAPL or APA route is the way to for Fast Eddies. For APA, you don't HAVE to have 8 players, the rulebook allows up to 8, and the LO just recommends it. It is not, however, a requirement. You only have to have 5 players that want to play every week.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

greyghost said:
for the extra tid bit.......

for the rest of you.........your input is seriously LACKING and The Greyone is not pleased with this......

90 something views and only leagueguy has something to say?

Where are all my people at?

NEIL, JAM, SCOTT, COCO, PJ, Blackjack, cajunfats, Fatboy, Jay, Houmatroy,
Manwon, Ratta, S&K, Sliderule, Steve, Randy, DCP..................

come with the comments and ideas people we got a new project to get off the ground.........

If you look then say something........don't lurk today.

-Grey Ghost-
Click to expand...
 
Last edited:
APA Operator said:
So you're saying that it's possible for a team to get too good, and the USAPL system penalizes them for being too strong? Is that because the USAPL doesn't want dominant teams? How is that different from a hard limit, where you lose all of your points for the night?

Just to be clear, you are ALLOWED to break the 23 rule in the APA, you just get penalized for it. Do it enough and eventually the penalties will overwhelm any chance of your team winning. Sound familiar? It should, just look at the bottom of what I quoted.

The USAPL system does the same thing the other systems do. As a matter of fact, that aspect of the system (penalizing dominant teams to the point where they are not competitive) should be touted as a good quality of the system. You have to do that for a handicap system to work, as dominant teams will kill the league. But don't try to sell it as a positive in the USAPL system and claim it's a HUGE negative in the others. That's just double-talk.
Click to expand...
Look, not looking to get into a pissing match, which can happen too often in forum settings.

I see a lot of double speak in the response.

To clarify, for example at APA nationals ALL TEAMS must play under the 23 handicap. If you want to say OR imply differently, please show me some official APA documentation... No need to argue or gripe.

This is quite different in the USA Pool League. Exceed the team handicap. Fine. Those exact same players may continue to play. Simply stated, it's a very nice bonus feature (however, in your words, I'm sure you'll likely distort that to something else. Just be careful not to state wrongly, as you have already demonstrated).

No need to piss and moan

Just keeping the facts straight here...
Thank you
 
FLICKit said:
Look, not looking to get into a pissing match, which can happen too often in forum settings.

I see a lot of double speak in the response.

To clarify, for example at APA nationals ALL TEAMS must play under the 23 handicap. If you want to say OR imply differently, please show me some official APA documentation... No need to argue or gripe.

This is quite different in the USA Pool League. Exceed the team handicap. Fine. Those exact same players may continue to play. Simply stated, it's a very nice bonus feature (however, in your words, I'm sure you'll likely distort that to something else. Just be careful not to state wrongly, as you have already demonstrated).

No need to piss and moan

Just keeping the facts straight here...
Thank you
Click to expand...
Why not answer the question instead of going straight to attack/insult mode?

Why does the USAPL have a handicap limit and why penalize teams for exceeding that limit? If a team can endure an "excessive skill" penalty and still be competitive, what does that say about the team?

When you answer these questions without slinging mud or accusing me of urinating or lamenting, then I will probably have more questions.

Oh right, you asked for documentation. Current edition of APA's Official Team Manual, page 35, first paragraph. Look it up. Teams break 23 all the time (even at Nationals) without penalty. Need more documentation? Higher level tournament rules, look for "4 to 19". If you can't meet 23 with any five-player combination, you can play four players who don't exceed 19 and forfeit one match (the penalty). If you can't field four to 19, you can play three to 15 and forfeit two matches (the additional penalty).
 
Last edited:
APA Operator said:
Why not answer the question instead of going straight to attack/insult mode?

Why does the USAPL have a handicap limit and why penalize teams for exceeding that limit?
Click to expand...

why do teams in APA that have players that get better forcing them to split up....

from what I got from the USAPL website instead of making teams have to split they take a penalty and can stay together.......

I like that Idea as if i had a team I'd rather stay a team.

-Grey GHost-
 
Here are simple straightforward answers to put the matter to rest...

APA Operator said:
Why does the USAPL have a handicap limit and why penalize teams for exceeding that limit?
Click to expand...
APA Operator said:
So you're saying that it's possible for a team to get too good, and the USAPL system penalizes them for being too strong? Is that because the USAPL doesn't want dominant teams? How is that different from a hard limit, where you lose all of your points for the night
Click to expand...
So, first let's keep things straight. Those are twisted words that you're saying that I'm saying. In reality, that's not what I said.

In the hard limit structure that you reference, which is used by the APA, if your 5 APA players exceed the 23 team limit at your National tournament, then those 5 APA players CAN NOT PLAY.
How is that different, you ask?
Well, when the USAPL 5 players exceed their team handicap limit, those exact same 5 players can still play and can still have a reasonable chance to win. That is very different and a very nice perk! Grey Ghost already picked up on that distinction quite quickly.

In the USAPL league, teams may exceed the team handicap limit as much as they desire. Those players are never denied the opportunity to play! For maintaining competitive play, the opposing team will be given bonus points accordingly.

Alternatively, for pool players that want to play with no team handicap limit, then the BCA Pool League is an excellent choice!

And for extra emphasis, the USA Pool League allows for much more dominant teams than the APA.


Now that I've addressed your issues, if you want to pursue this matter further, please show the official APA documentation as requested.
FLICKit said:
To clarify, for example at APA nationals ALL TEAMS must play under the 23 handicap. If you want to say OR imply differently, please show me some official APA documentation... No need to argue or gripe.
Click to expand...


No direct personal attacks needed.

Please remain civil, as you are a reflection of the organization that you represent.
 
FLICKit said:
Of course, maybe you're just assuming wrongly. Just maybe...

Having a lil fun.
Click to expand...

Yeah, that's why I said "Not necessarily". It's entirely possible that the system is great. 70% hill-hill matches just doesn't prove it, or necessarily have any correlation with the accuracy of handicaps.
 
FLICKit said:
Now that I've addressed your issues, if you want to pursue this matter further, please show the official APA documentation as requested.
Click to expand...
That would be in my previous reply. I was editing that reply as you were responding to it.

No direct personal attacks needed.

Please remain civil, as you are a reflection of the organization that you represent.
Click to expand...

If there was a personal attack in my reply, then I apologize. But just so I don't make the same mistake again, would you please point out to me which part of my reply you interpreted as a personal attack? I'd also like the same courtesy, please. I would like you to refrain from referring to some questions, followed by a logical argument (which included a compliment, by the way) as "pissing and moaning". Debate the logic if you want, but please do it without the insults.
 
What I can tell you from a team captain perspective...I have found the APA's and TAP's score sheets a PITA. Far too much to have to keep track of...might as well, as a captain, not even play with all the distractions of keeping an accurate score sheet.

Lisa
 
APA Operator said:
Oh right, you asked for documentation. Current edition of APA's Official Team Manual, page 35, first paragraph. Look it up. Teams break 23 all the time (even at Nationals) without penalty. Need more documentation? Higher level tournament rules, look for "4 to 19". If you can't meet 23 with any five-player combination, you can play four players who don't exceed 19 and forfeit one match (the penalty). If you can't field four to 19, you can play three to 15 and forfeit two matches (the additional penalty).
Click to expand...
Responding to your late edit here.

Thank you. That's exactly the difference that I was pointing to originally!
In the APA, when exceeding the hard cap 23 handicap limit, now your APA team is limited to 4 or less players, where the 5th player doesn't play and must forfeit instead.

Whereas I said, this is quite different, in the USAPL all 5 players still play all 5 of their matches.

Expanding your APA document further, if your APA players can't field a team of 4 players under the 19 handicap limit, then only 3 players are allowed to play and must remain under a 15 handicap limit. This would forfeit 2 players. If any 1 of those 3 remaining players lose, then that team loses the whole round with no need for any more matches to be played. The outcome of the whole round can be decided in the first match (1 person only).


Repeating the obvious, that restriction does not apply in the USA Pool League.
 
Last edited:
FLICKit said:
Responding to your late edit here.

Thank you. That's exactly the difference that I was pointing to originally!
In the APA, when exceeding the hard cap 23 handicap limit, now your APA team is limited to 4 or less players, where the 5th player doesn't play and must forfeit instead.

Whereas I said, this is quite different, in the USAPL all 5 players still play all 5 of their matches.

Expanding your APA document further, if your APA players can't field a team of 4 players under the 19 handicap limit, then only 3 players are allowed to play and must remain under a 15 handicap limit. This would forfeit 2 players. If any 1 of those 3 remaining players lose, then that team loses the whole round with no need for any more matches to be played. The outcome of the whole round can be decided in the first match (1 person only).

Repeating the obvious, that restriction does not apply in the USA Pool League.
Click to expand...

We'll get back to this stuff eventually. I'm trying to lead you through the logical process by which I arrived at the conclusion that USAPL's policy isn't really that much different. I suspect you've been through the logic already, but for the sake of being in a public forum, I would like to go through the entire proces, as there are probably others who would benefit. In the end, we will probably agree one way or the other.

In my edited reply I asked three questions.

1) Why does the USAPL have a handicap limit?

2) Why penalize teams for exceeding that limit?

3) If a team can endure an "excessive skill" penalty and still be competitive, what does that say about the team?

On the third question, I should probably clarify that I'm asking about teams that can stay competitive long-term, not one lucky round in a tournament. The OP was asking about leagues, and you described the USAPL league. My initial reply was in reference to league play, but for some reason you keep shifting to tournaments in your responses to me. Tournaments are different from leagues, and different people have differing philosophies on how "excessive skill" should be handled in a tournament setting. I'll be happy to discuss that with you in another thread, but in this one I would prefer to keep the focus on weekly league play because that's what I had in mind with my initial reply.

I eagerly await your response to my questions.
 
That Pool-300 is a blast. Different enough, difficult enough, fun enough....randyg
 
Scott Lee said:
Keeb...I think that the USAPL or APA route is the way to for Fast Eddies. For APA, you don't HAVE to have 8 players, the rulebook allows up to 8, and the LO just recommends it. It is not, however, a requirement. You only have to have 5 players that want to play every week.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
Click to expand...

Hi Scott - the USAPL does not require 8 players either, but allows for it on the roster. )P

Hope to see you this coming May! Holly
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top