Pro One

Huh? So everything that exists and happens is already cataloged and described?

No. But the only way to do that is to do more science, not art. It sounded like science needs to adjust so that our favorite aiming system fits into the category "exact".
We look at the facts which is people claiming that CTE/Pro One has improved their shotmaking. But how? I don't know if Stan explains it in his DVD. Apparently he doesn't, if I interpret Dr. Dave's post correctly. And when asked for specifics like pivot lenghts or bridge lengths and how you can extract this information from the system, there is never a straight answer. Well we need "adjustments", but NOT based on feel, because that would kill the concept of CTE being an exact aiming system. This is the reason why these threads always get so heated. Because for some reason you don't want to acknowledge that it is not an exact aiming system. I don't know why.
It could be a tool that distracts your brain so you can let your subconscious do the work. Or it could be a placebo. Or it could be a tool that helps you find the line of aim. Or it could just force you to focus on each shot. It could be all of the above. But it is not exact.
 
No. But the only way to do that is to do more science, not art. It sounded like science needs to adjust so that our favorite aiming system fits into the category "exact".
We look at the facts which is people claiming that CTE/Pro One has improved their shotmaking. But how? I don't know if Stan explains it in his DVD. Apparently he doesn't, if I interpret Dr. Dave's post correctly. And when asked for specifics like pivot lenghts or bridge lengths and how you can extract this information from the system, there is never a straight answer. Well we need "adjustments", but NOT based on feel, because that would kill the concept of CTE being an exact aiming system. This is the reason why these threads always get so heated. Because for some reason you don't want to acknowledge that it is not an exact aiming system. I don't know why.
It could be a tool that distracts your brain so you can let your subconscious do the work. Or it could be a placebo. Or it could be a tool that helps you find the line of aim. Or it could just force you to focus on each shot. It could be all of the above. But it is not exact.

This is a mixed bag.

If you go to the glossary part of the DVD, there is a discussion of bridge lengths for different situations. Personally, I find the variable bridge length requirement to be a negative, others might not.

There are some issues remaining. For one, the mechanical CTE method as described offers only a limited number of discrete cut angles for a given CB-OB distance. Nothing new about that, but it appears that you have to choose which discrete angle you need largely from experience. Since your long term experience with this will not be terribly rewarding, the transition to the continuous system (Pro One) is the next step. But this also is largely an experience-based transition.

In short, you get the best description of CTE that is available anywhere, but even a cursory analysis will show it's imperfections and limitations. These imperfections can potentially be addressed by Pro One, which is largely experience based and will take considerable time investment.

This is not different from any other aiming method, and it will be the best-fit for some people, but certainly not everybody. Depends on your baseline skill set as to whether it is right for you. Certainly, every instructor should have an understanding of it, whether they teach it or not.
 
No. But the only way to do that is to do more science, not art. It sounded like science needs to adjust so that our favorite aiming system fits into the category "exact".
We look at the facts which is people claiming that CTE/Pro One has improved their shotmaking. But how? I don't know if Stan explains it in his DVD. Apparently he doesn't, if I interpret Dr. Dave's post correctly. And when asked for specifics like pivot lenghts or bridge lengths and how you can extract this information from the system, there is never a straight answer. Well we need "adjustments", but NOT based on feel, because that would kill the concept of CTE being an exact aiming system. This is the reason why these threads always get so heated. Because for some reason you don't want to acknowledge that it is not an exact aiming system. I don't know why.
It could be a tool that distracts your brain so you can let your subconscious do the work. Or it could be a placebo. Or it could be a tool that helps you find the line of aim. Or it could just force you to focus on each shot. It could be all of the above. But it is not exact.

Speaking for myself it has improved my shotmaking because I am now making more shots, i.e. missing less. I am also making difficult shots more often. My arsenal of shots that I can regularly make has increased quite a bit.

Another benefit which I consider to be huge is that I can play better shape since I don't have to really think about whether I am lined up right.

To better explain this I mean that I used to miss a lot of shots trying to get position. I would not be entirely sure of my shot line and thus be torn between "cinching" the shot and playing for position.

Since becoming proficient using CTE I find that my position play has gotten much much better since I am now not only making the shots but sending the cue ball to the right position with much more accuracy.

As far as your issue with CTE being described as "exact" I think that you have a different idea of what exact means. When I think of CTE and exact I think of the fact that I do the same three steps for each shot - sight the CTE Line, line up my cue tip with the edge of the cue ball as I am placing my bridge hand on the table, pivot to center and I am on the shot line.

Because I do these same three steps for every shot which goes directly to a pocket AND the majority of the time the object ball goes in cleanly, appearing to "split the pocket" so to speak (when my stroke is good) I consider the system as a whole to be an exact method for finding the shot line. No guessing required. In fact there are many shots I face where I honestly have no good feeling that the shot is "on" when I use CTE to line it up. I use CTE to get to the shot line, focus on my stroke and how I need to hit it for position and the object ball goes right in.

So I can come to no other conclusion than the system is exactly bringing me to the shot line for these shots. I am fairly sure I can't guess the correct line with consistency since in the past I have missed these same shots consistently.

The guy I beat out of $900 last night said that I am shooting MUCH better than when I played him about 6 months ago when he beat me pretty soundly. He has his hands full and he knows it. Shots that I missed a lot o when I played him previously where I was still kind of shaky with CTE and my stroke was also flaky are not a problem at all.

Regarding bridge distances and pivot points; Until I see the DVD I can't comment on what Stan is teaching. I would hope that Dr. Dave now feels that he can call and speak with Stan directly to get answers to whatever questions he has.

Honestly, all I really care about is that there is now a video guide with the steps laid out, with demonstrations done by world class players and instruction by a world class instructor.

Now no one can say that they don't have access to the exact instructions. Whether or not the viewer is able to follow those directions is secondary to the fact that the instructions exist. To me this is a big step forward and we can now focus on discussing the exact steps. For Dr. Dave and any other skeptic/engineering-science guy who has been convinced that CTE is hooey because it sounds as if it defies physics and basic geometry at least they now have something concrete to work with that they can dissect and study.

Whether they actually give it a fair shake and apply unbiased study is another story. To me though the doors are now open wide and any one can get this information without having to know someone who is willing and able to share it. People who want to learn CTE can get it now without having to run the gauntlet of argument and ridicule that accompanies any such attempt on this forum.

So whatever the "science" of CTE ends up being the fact is that it's highly beneficial to the majority of people who have been fortunate enough to figure it out and now it's open to everyone.
 
This is a mixed bag.

If you go to the glossary part of the DVD, there is a discussion of bridge lengths for different situations. Personally, I find the variable bridge length requirement to be a negative, others might not.

There are some issues remaining. For one, the mechanical CTE method as described offers only a limited number of discrete cut angles for a given CB-OB distance. Nothing new about that, but it appears that you have to choose which discrete angle you need largely from experience. Since your long term experience with this will not be terribly rewarding, the transition to the continuous system (Pro One) is the next step. But this also is largely an experience-based transition.

In short, you get the best description of CTE that is available anywhere, but even a cursory analysis will show it's imperfections and limitations. These imperfections can potentially be addressed by Pro One, which is largely experience based and will take considerable time investment.

This is not different from any other aiming method, and it will be the best-fit for some people, but certainly not everybody. Depends on your baseline skill set as to whether it is right for you. Certainly, every instructor should have an understanding of it, whether they teach it or not.

The mechanical pivot is actually the most reliable one. When you see clips every once in a while of a pro pivoting he is going back to basic cte for a shot he is not quite comfortable with. IMO basic cte is a must learn.
 
who are u taking $900 from in china jb? lol and what are u doing there anyway? :)

The guy I played is a gambler who always bets high. He beat me out of 900 the first time we played. Last night I had him stuck 1500 but I got sloppy and overconfident for two sets at around 4am and had to regroup.

Over here I work for Sterling Gaming doing quality control and product development. I also make a case or two with the people in my shop. :-)

P.S. CTE or not I just a very small fish in a big pond here. There are plenty of players in this city alone that I want no part of.
 
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On the dvd is he using dead center of the cue ball as the alignment and inside of the cue tip to find center cue ball with a full tip off set left or right and then a pivot to center cue ball? is he also using just the edges of the object ball as aim points?

YES- dead center of CB to outside edge of OB. Please refer to your DVD when you get it.
NO- There are more aim points on the OB than just the edges.


You say and i quote "Then, without moving, look left (or right) and from the cte line/spot, see if the CB edge is aligned. With one of those points. If not, then resight the cte line cuz you might have been a lil off in your initial attempt." can you get a little more detailed on that point you said?

Once you determine the CTE line, you should be standing on that line, looking straight ahead, thru the CB center, at the target; OB edge. Once you are confident that you have the correct line, ONLY MOVE YOUR EYES to glance to the side, to see if the CB edge points to the correct secondary aimpoint on the OB. Remember, you are not moving your head or body to view the secondary aim point. Just glance over, and if that secondary aimpoint is also lined up, then you can proceed. If not, redo the process to find the CTE line cuz you might be off a little.

thanks in advance Eric if you decide to answer :)

Not picking on you, Eric, just want to point something out. IMO, many of the posts discussing CTE are meaningless because they fail to define the initial eye position relative to the cue. As I've attempted to point out in numerous "Perfect Aim" threads (which Geno continues to avoid), it makes no sense to say move your eyes one way or the other unless you first specify the initial location of the eyes.

Good point. Every individual needs to correct their personal fundamentals so that they can sight down the cue properly. For some, it may mean cenetering the cue under your chin. For others (like me), it means having the cue offset, to be under one eye.
......................
I think it would help everyone if Stan affirms this, if it is so. (Center the cue between your eyes, or get nowhere with CTE, I believe.) And, as I've said many times previously, I believe "Perfect Aim" is simply a requirement to center the cue between the eyes; but Geno continues to refuse to admit or deny this.

Stan has agreed to answer questions on the forum. He is the best person to answer questions regarding Pro One.

Keep in mind that everybody's visual perception varies. The adjustment is that if you set up a shot, line it up per CTE and you miss, set up up and shoot it several more times and see if you consistently miss the same way i.e. overcut/undercut. If you are consistently missing the same way, then you need to make a tiny personal adjustment, and that becomes your new "everytime" reference for that shot.

If it helps, you(figuratively) need to be able to sight down your cuestick like a rifle. You need to be able to point/aim directly at what you are seeing. If you can't put the CB to the exact spot you are looking at, then all the systems in the world aint gonna help much.

In my humble opinion, aiming systems are not geared to make aiming automatic. You can't be a little sloppy in your fundamentals. You still have to execute and be able to stroke straight. If anything, I feel the goal of aiming systems is to make you more consistent by eliminating second guessing and variances in your preshot aiming process.


Eric
 
Keep in mind that everybody's visual perception varies. The adjustment is that if you set up a shot, line it up per CTE and you miss, set up up and shoot it several more times and see if you consistently miss the same way i.e. overcut/undercut. If you are consistently missing the same way, then you need to make a tiny personal adjustment, and that becomes your new "everytime" reference for that shot.

If it helps, you(figuratively) need to be able to sight down your cuestick like a rifle. You need to be able to point/aim directly at what you are seeing. If you can't put the CB to the exact spot you are looking at, then all the systems in the world aint gonna help much.

In my humble opinion, aiming systems are not geared to make aiming automatic. You can't be a little sloppy in your fundamentals. You still have to execute and be able to stroke straight. If anything, I feel the goal of aiming systems is to make you more consistent by eliminating second guessing and variances in your preshot aiming process.


Eric

Excellent post.
 
Once you determine the CTE line, you should be standing on that line, looking straight ahead, thru the CB center, at the target; OB edge. Once you are confident that you have the correct line, ONLY MOVE YOUR EYES to glance to the side, to see if the CB edge points to the correct secondary aimpoint on the OB. Remember, you are not moving your head or body to view the secondary aim point. Just glance over, and if that secondary aimpoint is also lined up, then you can proceed. If not, redo the process to find the CTE line cuz you might be off a little.


Eric

If you are not aligned to see the edge of the CB to the secondary aimpoint, how can you achieve that without moving? It seems that you need to move your head and eyes to visualize the secondary aimpoint?

Thanks.:confused::)
 
If you are not aligned to see the edge of the CB to the secondary aimpoint, how can you achieve that without moving? It seems that you need to move your head and eyes to visualize the secondary aimpoint?

Thanks.:confused::)

The secondary sight line veers off at an angle from the CTE line.

Picture a "victory" sign with your fingers, with the index finger pointing straight ahead(CTE line) and the middle finger angles to the side, pointing at the secondary aim point.

Obviously, dont use your finger for CTE, this is just an analogy.


Eric
 
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Am i understanding this correctly that there is a "double check" on a secondary point so you can check if you are lined up properly on your cte line? would that be like outside edge to outside edge or something like that?
 
Am i understanding this correctly that there is a "double check" on a secondary point so you can check if you are lined up properly on your cte line? would that be like outside edge to outside edge or something like that?

Exactly. Once your DVD arrives, that is spelled out plainly.


Eric
 
ok, i got you! i am shooting some stick tonite and i will find this secondary point, i have never thought about looking for that before as a reference to see if im lined up properly.
 
Once you determine the CTE line, you should be standing on that line, looking straight ahead, thru the CB center, at the target; OB edge. Once you are confident that you have the correct line, ONLY MOVE YOUR EYES to glance to the side, to see if the CB edge points to the correct secondary aimpoint on the OB. Remember, you are not moving your head or body to view the secondary aim point. Just glance over, and if that secondary aimpoint is also lined up, then you can proceed. If not, redo the process to find the CTE line cuz you might be off a little.

Eric, what you are saying to do here is not what I would understand Stan to be saying. [I'll grant that he is kind of vague about this.]

It sounds to me like the stance, head position, and eye position have to be chosen to simultaneously create the two visuals that are necessary for a particular shot. And that would be somewhat off the center-to-edge line (CTEL).

In Chapter 10, Stan contrasts the alignments for the Quarters System versus CTE. He notes that when using the Quarters System for a 30-degree cut to the left, for example, you would simply align straight on the CTEL. But if you then looked where the CB edge is pointing, it would not be to the A point on the OB. But to use the CTE method for that same 30-degree cut to the left, you would adjust your stance slightly to simultaneously create the necessary two visuals: CB center to OB right edge, and CB left edge to OB point A. That stance adjustment moves the head and eyes slightly off the CTEL. Then to make the shot for CTE, you move straight in from that position for a left, half-tip pivot.

I hope that explains why I believe your instructions are not what Stan is saying.
 
Eric, what you are saying to do here is not what I would understand Stan to be saying. [I'll grant that he is kind of vague about this.]

It sounds to me like the stance, head position, and eye position have to be chosen to simultaneously create the two visuals that are necessary for a particular shot. And that would be somewhat off the center-to-edge line (CTEL).

In Chapter 10, Stan contrasts the alignments for the Quarters System versus CTE. He notes that when using the Quarters System for a 30-degree cut to the left, for example, you would simply align straight on the CTEL. But if you then looked where the CB edge is pointing, it would not be to the A point on the OB. But to use the CTE method for that same 30-degree cut to the left, you would adjust your stance slightly to simultaneously create the necessary two visuals: CB center to OB right edge, and CB left edge to OB point A. That stance adjustment moves the head and eyes slightly off the CTEL. Then to make the shot for CTE, you move straight in from that position for a left, half-tip pivot.

I hope that explains why I believe your instructions are not what Stan is saying.

You might be right. If I am doing it "wrong", I'm still getting the desired results. Just a disclaimer, tho; I've been using CTE( HAl Houle's version) for many years. Maybe we should ask Stan to clarify on his version of CTE?


Eric
 
Eric, what you are saying to do here is not what I would understand Stan to be saying. [I'll grant that he is kind of vague about this.]

It sounds to me like the stance, head position, and eye position have to be chosen to simultaneously create the two visuals that are necessary for a particular shot. And that would be somewhat off the center-to-edge line (CTEL).

In Chapter 10, Stan contrasts the alignments for the Quarters System versus CTE. He notes that when using the Quarters System for a 30-degree cut to the left, for example, you would simply align straight on the CTEL. But if you then looked where the CB edge is pointing, it would not be to the A point on the OB. But to use the CTE method for that same 30-degree cut to the left, you would adjust your stance slightly to simultaneously create the necessary two visuals: CB center to OB right edge, and CB left edge to OB point A. That stance adjustment moves the head and eyes slightly off the CTEL. Then to make the shot for CTE, you move straight in from that position for a left, half-tip pivot.

I hope that explains why I believe your instructions are not what Stan is saying.

This is good.
I thought that you need to move your head and eyes off of CTE to get the edge of the CB to line up with the secondary aiming points or "letters".

From this new stance, do you lift your cue and bridge in line but 1/2 tip to the correct side and then pivot to the center of the CB?:confused::smile:
 
This is good.
I thought that you need to move your head and eyes off of CTE to get the edge of the CB to line up with the secondary aiming points or "letters".

From this new stance, do you lift your cue and bridge in line but 1/2 tip to the correct side and then pivot to the center of the CB?:confused::smile:

From what I heard (for manual CTE, not Pro One), you would move your head/eyes/stance to the point where you see the two visuals needed for the shot (slightly off the CTEL), then move straight in toward the CB from that point -- sliding your bridge hand in on that line until you are at a half-tip offset position -- then pivot and shoot.

Anyone else hear it this way?
 
Pro-One Perplexities.

Well, I've gone over this 3 times and tried to do it step by step and it just won't work for me. When I see so many of you saying you're making ALL shots the same day you receive the DVD and after my initial work I'm just lost.
I don't care how I move my eyes or my head I do not see the lines adjusting or setting up for a backup aim.
The left to right and right to left are different just before the 4th chapter and that hasn't helped me.
There's other points but I'm going to keep trying for another couple of weeks and see if the lightbulb gets lit. Lord knows I could use the help and practice doesn't scare me, but I would like to know that I'm practicing the right way.
Good luck to all you guys.
 
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