Cue descriptions

SCCues

< Searing Twins
Silver Member
I frequent the wanted/for sale section and I see this statement all the time:

"one shaft has a taper roll"

Isn't this a nice way to say one shaft is warped. A shaft is either straight or it isn't and a taper roll means it's warped or slightly warped. I see cues priced at what they should sell for with 2 straight shafts and when you read the description you see "one shaft has a taper roll" in some listings. The seller continues on telling about the cue like it's no big deal. It is a big deal to me because if one of the shafts on a cue I want to buy is warped then i'm not getting 2 good shafts.

I'd like to hear some opinions on this from some of the AZ members.

Is it a big deal or not?

James
 
I frequent the wanted/for sale section and I see this statement all the time:

"one shaft has a taper roll"

Isn't this a nice way to say one shaft is warped. A shaft is either straight or it isn't and a taper roll means it's warped or slightly warped. I see cues priced at what they should sell for with 2 straight shafts and when you read the description you see "one shaft has a taper roll" in some listings. The seller continues on telling about the cue like it's no big deal. It is a big deal to me because if one of the shafts on a cue I want to buy is warped then i'm not getting 2 good shafts.

I'd like to hear some opinions on this from some of the AZ members.

Is it a big deal or not?

James

i wonder what cuemakers think how straight shafts should be. it seems that there are pretty high percentages of shafts with "taper rolls". regardless of cuemaker.
 
Cue shaft descriptions

Taper roll should mean that when rolled on a flat surface, there is light under the shaft when both ends are touching the surface. In other words, the shaft has been sanded in the middle (probably by hand). I know the "Taper roll" statement is often used to mean that the shaft is somewhat warped, but that is not the proper definition!
F.Y.I.
 
Unfortunately there isn't a better definition. Shafts that are truely warped will exhibit a "weeble" roll on a table. Where one of the ends is off the table, then reestablishes contact, lifting the rest of the shaft. A shaft where the end 4-6" on both sides never leaves the table, but you can see light under it when rolled, is normally over sanded in the center, usually heavy on one side. These are not warped, but they are undesireable to the most buyers.

A warped shaft is unmistakable.

JV
 
Taper roll has been used to describe slightly warped shafts. However, in recent years, it's become much more liberal & is being used to describe shafts that are a little more than slightly warped. Truth is, I have never seen an absolutely perfect straight shaft. IMO, it doesn't exist. But there is a point where 99%+ people agree that it's acceptable straight. That would be a shaft that doesn't noticeably wobble when rolled with or without the butt. And every shaft that has a pro, compound, or parabolic taper all will show light under it. The amount of variance you see in that light as the shaft rolls is an indication of how straight the shaft actually is. Slight variance is what folks call "taper roll". No that's not exactly correct terminology but everybody knows it means slightly bowed.

Taper roll is an uneven cut. When tapering a shaft, there's always slight (very slight) variance in density from one side to the other. That's no big deal except when the cutter is getting dull. Then it begins pushing a tiny bit on the harder side of the shaft, which causes the softer side to reflex in a weencie bit deeper. It's still a clean & smooth cut but an ultra slightly uneven cut. And it can be seen when rolled on the table as a slight variance in light. Shaft is still straight, just slightly uneven cut. Still plays & feels fine. Once the bit gets dull enough, it begins causing vibrations & leaving strange cut patterns, and that's when the builder knows it's time to sharpen or change the blade. But for a few shafts before the builder knows, there possibly will be a true "taper roll".

Another thing that causes roll off is the joint work. Once shaft is to size, the joint work is done. Then it's cut to size to mate with the butt. If it's only .001" off center at the joint then it'll be compounded enough 15" down the shaft to see when rolled. For some reference, a human head hair is .004"-.006" thick, so .001" is tiny and is a common benchmark for cue machining. It's within the accepted accuracy range. But even still, it'll show slight roll. Maybe not enough to see for one guy but enough to see for another guy. Then you must consider the finish and if it's perfectly symmetrical & even. If it's slightly thicker one side to the other, it'll show a slight roll. Same with joint facing (while screwed together only).

Point being, there's a lot of variables that a builder must fight to get a perfectly straight shaft. It's virtually impossible. But there is an acceptable "straight" and anybody who considers themselves a cue maker can easily meet that range. Brand new off the lathe a shaft may have a true "taper roll" but you'd have to be super nit to see it & complain about it. But somewhere I suspect a builder tried explaining this all to a super nit & labeled it "taper roll" and from there it became synonymous with minor warpage. In actuality it's nothing even remotely close to warpage but is caused due to a number of very minor machining flaws. Hope this helps.
 
Taper roll has been used to describe slightly warped shafts. However, in recent years, it's become much more liberal & is being used to describe shafts that are a little more than slightly warped. Truth is, I have never seen an absolutely perfect straight shaft. IMO, it doesn't exist. But there is a point where 99%+ people agree that it's acceptable straight. That would be a shaft that doesn't noticeably wobble when rolled with or without the butt. And every shaft that has a pro, compound, or parabolic taper all will show light under it. The amount of variance you see in that light as the shaft rolls is an indication of how straight the shaft actually is. Slight variance is what folks call "taper roll". No that's not exactly correct terminology but everybody knows it means slightly bowed.

Taper roll is an uneven cut. When tapering a shaft, there's always slight (very slight) variance in density from one side to the other. That's no big deal except when the cutter is getting dull. Then it begins pushing a tiny bit on the harder side of the shaft, which causes the softer side to reflex in a weencie bit deeper. It's still a clean & smooth cut but an ultra slightly uneven cut. And it can be seen when rolled on the table as a slight variance in light. Shaft is still straight, just slightly uneven cut. Still plays & feels fine. Once the bit gets dull enough, it begins causing vibrations & leaving strange cut patterns, and that's when the builder knows it's time to sharpen or change the blade. But for a few shafts before the builder knows, there possibly will be a true "taper roll".

Another thing that causes roll off is the joint work. Once shaft is to size, the joint work is done. Then it's cut to size to mate with the butt. If it's only .001" off center at the joint then it'll be compounded enough 15" down the shaft to see when rolled. For some reference, a human head hair is .004"-.006" thick, so .001" is tiny and is a common benchmark for cue machining. It's within the accepted accuracy range. But even still, it'll show slight roll. Maybe not enough to see for one guy but enough to see for another guy. Then you must consider the finish and if it's perfectly symmetrical & even. If it's slightly thicker one side to the other, it'll show a slight roll. Same with joint facing (while screwed together only).

Point being, there's a lot of variables that a builder must fight to get a perfectly straight shaft. It's virtually impossible. But there is an acceptable "straight" and anybody who considers themselves a cue maker can easily meet that range. Brand new off the lathe a shaft may have a true "taper roll" but you'd have to be super nit to see it & complain about it. But somewhere I suspect a builder tried explaining this all to a super nit & labeled it "taper roll" and from there it became synonymous with minor warpage. In actuality it's nothing even remotely close to warpage but is caused due to a number of very minor machining flaws. Hope this helps.
Thanks for this great information, Eric. A cue maker once told me that an additional factor creating the appearance of warp--i.e. variability in the gap that appears in the middle of the shaft when rolled on a table--is the effect of sanding a shaft to bring it to the final desired diameter. The effect of the sandpaper perpendicular to the grain vs. paralle to the grain is not consistent, creating a very slight out-of-roundness that can be seen. Is this an accurate description of another factor that creates this perception of warp? It sounds plausible, but I don't know for sure.
 
Hmmm

I frequent the wanted/for sale section and I see this statement all the time:

"one shaft has a taper roll"

Isn't this a nice way to say one shaft is warped. A shaft is either straight or it isn't and a taper roll means it's warped or slightly warped. I see cues priced at what they should sell for with 2 straight shafts and when you read the description you see "one shaft has a taper roll" in some listings. The seller continues on telling about the cue like it's no big deal. It is a big deal to me because if one of the shafts on a cue I want to buy is warped then i'm not getting 2 good shafts.

I'd like to hear some opinions on this from some of the AZ members.

Is it a big deal or not?

James


I agree. Personally, the last cue I sold had three shafts, but I sold it with the two straight shafts. Why mention a minor flaw if I don't have to......i think it sold quicker as the "roll" was not on any ones mind. You can always sell the shaft at another time. Now if it only has one shaft not much you can do but describe it accurately as possible.....
 
Thanks for this great information, Eric. A cue maker once told me that an additional factor creating the appearance of warp--i.e. variability in the gap that appears in the middle of the shaft when rolled on a table--is the effect of sanding a shaft to bring it to the final desired diameter. The effect of the sandpaper perpendicular to the grain vs. paralle to the grain is not consistent, creating a very slight out-of-roundness that can be seen. Is this an accurate description of another factor that creates this perception of warp? It sounds plausible, but I don't know for sure.

Yes, that's certainly another factor, especially if the builder relies a lot on sanding for final size. It's especially seen on shafts that get "cut" down in diameter, say from 13mm to 12.75mm. It actually gets sanded down as it's not really logical to retaper for only a 1/4mm.
 
I frequent the wanted/for sale section and I see this statement all the time:

"one shaft has a taper roll"

Isn't this a nice way to say one shaft is warped. A shaft is either straight or it isn't and a taper roll means it's warped or slightly warped. I see cues priced at what they should sell for with 2 straight shafts and when you read the description you see "one shaft has a taper roll" in some listings. The seller continues on telling about the cue like it's no big deal. It is a big deal to me because if one of the shafts on a cue I want to buy is warped then i'm not getting 2 good shafts.

I'd like to hear some opinions on this from some of the AZ members.

Is it a big deal or not?

James



James I agree with you, when I see this in a sellers description I immediately read between the lines and insert warped for taper roll. I think in most cases the less knowledgeable forum members use this term because it is frequently inserted in for sale threads. I would like to assume that people are not trying to be blatantly dishonest when they use that term, however, this only applies to our new members and not those who deal in cues daily.

I think this term should be done away with, like you said either the shaft is straight or it is warped there is no middle ground where this subject is concerned.

JIMO
 
Taper roll has been used to describe slightly warped shafts. However, in recent years, it's become much more liberal & is being used to describe shafts that are a little more than slightly warped. Truth is, I have never seen an absolutely perfect straight shaft. IMO, it doesn't exist. But there is a point where 99%+ people agree that it's acceptable straight. That would be a shaft that doesn't noticeably wobble when rolled with or without the butt. And every shaft that has a pro, compound, or parabolic taper all will show light under it. The amount of variance you see in that light as the shaft rolls is an indication of how straight the shaft actually is. Slight variance is what folks call "taper roll". No that's not exactly correct terminology but everybody knows it means slightly bowed.

Taper roll is an uneven cut. When tapering a shaft, there's always slight (very slight) variance in density from one side to the other. That's no big deal except when the cutter is getting dull. Then it begins pushing a tiny bit on the harder side of the shaft, which causes the softer side to reflex in a weencie bit deeper. It's still a clean & smooth cut but an ultra slightly uneven cut. And it can be seen when rolled on the table as a slight variance in light. Shaft is still straight, just slightly uneven cut. Still plays & feels fine. Once the bit gets dull enough, it begins causing vibrations & leaving strange cut patterns, and that's when the builder knows it's time to sharpen or change the blade. But for a few shafts before the builder knows, there possibly will be a true "taper roll".

Another thing that causes roll off is the joint work. Once shaft is to size, the joint work is done. Then it's cut to size to mate with the butt. If it's only .001" off center at the joint then it'll be compounded enough 15" down the shaft to see when rolled. For some reference, a human head hair is .004"-.006" thick, so .001" is tiny and is a common benchmark for cue machining. It's within the accepted accuracy range. But even still, it'll show slight roll. Maybe not enough to see for one guy but enough to see for another guy. Then you must consider the finish and if it's perfectly symmetrical & even. If it's slightly thicker one side to the other, it'll show a slight roll. Same with joint facing (while screwed together only).

Point being, there's a lot of variables that a builder must fight to get a perfectly straight shaft. It's virtually impossible. But there is an acceptable "straight" and anybody who considers themselves a cue maker can easily meet that range. Brand new off the lathe a shaft may have a true "taper roll" but you'd have to be super nit to see it & complain about it. But somewhere I suspect a builder tried explaining this all to a super nit & labeled it "taper roll" and from there it became synonymous with minor warpage. In actuality it's nothing even remotely close to warpage but is caused due to a number of very minor machining flaws. Hope this helps.
I enjoyed reading your post about shafts and cutting tools. It makes a lot of sense and I learned something from reading your post. Rep to you and thanks for the explanation.

James
 
I enjoyed reading your post about shafts and cutting tools. It makes a lot of sense and I learned something from reading your post. Rep to you and thanks for the explanation.

James

No problem. I see this topic come up from time to time & it always causes confusion.
 
I don't consider a taper roll the same as warped. If the tip never leaves the table that is a taper roll but not warped.

But that's just me, others may disagree.
 
Taper roll has been used to describe slightly warped shafts. However, in recent years, it's become much more liberal & is being used to describe shafts that are a little more than slightly warped. Truth is, I have never seen an absolutely perfect straight shaft. IMO, it doesn't exist. But there is a point where 99%+ people agree that it's acceptable straight. That would be a shaft that doesn't noticeably wobble when rolled with or without the butt. And every shaft that has a pro, compound, or parabolic taper all will show light under it. The amount of variance you see in that light as the shaft rolls is an indication of how straight the shaft actually is. Slight variance is what folks call "taper roll". No that's not exactly correct terminology but everybody knows it means slightly bowed.

Taper roll is an uneven cut. When tapering a shaft, there's always slight (very slight) variance in density from one side to the other. That's no big deal except when the cutter is getting dull. Then it begins pushing a tiny bit on the harder side of the shaft, which causes the softer side to reflex in a weencie bit deeper. It's still a clean & smooth cut but an ultra slightly uneven cut. And it can be seen when rolled on the table as a slight variance in light. Shaft is still straight, just slightly uneven cut. Still plays & feels fine. Once the bit gets dull enough, it begins causing vibrations & leaving strange cut patterns, and that's when the builder knows it's time to sharpen or change the blade. But for a few shafts before the builder knows, there possibly will be a true "taper roll".

Another thing that causes roll off is the joint work. Once shaft is to size, the joint work is done. Then it's cut to size to mate with the butt. If it's only .001" off center at the joint then it'll be compounded enough 15" down the shaft to see when rolled. For some reference, a human head hair is .004"-.006" thick, so .001" is tiny and is a common benchmark for cue machining. It's within the accepted accuracy range. But even still, it'll show slight roll. Maybe not enough to see for one guy but enough to see for another guy. Then you must consider the finish and if it's perfectly symmetrical & even. If it's slightly thicker one side to the other, it'll show a slight roll. Same with joint facing (while screwed together only).

Point being, there's a lot of variables that a builder must fight to get a perfectly straight shaft. It's virtually impossible. But there is an acceptable "straight" and anybody who considers themselves a cue maker can easily meet that range. Brand new off the lathe a shaft may have a true "taper roll" but you'd have to be super nit to see it & complain about it. But somewhere I suspect a builder tried explaining this all to a super nit & labeled it "taper roll" and from there it became synonymous with minor warpage. In actuality it's nothing even remotely close to warpage but is caused due to a number of very minor machining flaws. Hope this helps.

I agree 100%. I believe James is commenting on something I told him. He has inquired on buying the high end Bobby Hunter that I have that Scott Frost used to own. It is the very same cue that Scott had on the "In the Case" video that is on Youtube and the cue he played SVB with in the TAR challenge video. I believe James misunderstood me. I told him that the Ishaft(eye shaft) that Scott had built for the cue has a slight "taper" roll. It is not warped. What I meant by this is that where the shaft starts to taper it has a very slight roll up and down when rolled on a table. When I say slight i mean like .005-.010 maybe. The tip and joint end never leave the table. You could have a 12inch stoke and the tip would move perfectly straight. I think you would be surprised at what you'd see if you rolled some brand new shafts on a perfectly flat surface. A lot of shafts do this. Like stated above it is very hard when building a shaft to get it perfect. I totally understand being cautious, $2000 is a lot of money these days. Considering this cue was well over $4000 new, anyone that buys it will be getting well more than their moneys worth. James, if you have any questions or concerns please feel free to call me.

Thanks!!
Bruce 515-306-0235
 
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