What is considered "heavy" shafts?

[sidepocket7]

Hello everyone. I just picked up a plain jane Sugartree cue by Eric Crisp. It has a wormy maple handle, with an East Indian rosewood forearm and buttsleeve. The cue hits amazing, and I have never seen or played with shafts that are like this. The grain is super tight, and the shafts feel very heavy. I put them on the scale, and they both are 4.2 onces. I was just curious to see if that is considered heavy compared to other cue makers shafts, and if it is a good or bad thing. Any input is much appreciated.
Thanks!
-Dave

 

[Mr Hoppe]

IMO, over 4 oz is considered heavy, and is generally considered better than light, though weight alone is certainly not the only factor at work.

 

[qbilder]

Prolly doesn't mean much coming from me because I built the cue in question. BUT.....

I would consider 4.2 a heavy shaft. I have had shafts that weigh around 4.5oz but those are just cumbersome. I personally prefer to use 3.7-4.2oz shafts in my cues. I think taper shape, joint type & diameters play a big roll in shaft weight so there's not necessarily an easy way to say what's heavy & what's not. For my taper & joint & 13mm shafts, 4.2oz is edging close to as heavy as I feel comfortable using. Other cues would vary & would have their own specific window of prime weight range. But overall in the big scheme of things, anything 4.0oz & over is generally considered heavy for any cue.

As for good or bad, it's all about the cue & how well the shaft works with it. If it weighs 4.2oz and balances out nicely at a playable weight, then it's a good thing. If it's 4.2oz and makes the cue weigh 22oz with a 22" balance point then maybe it's a bad thing & a lighter shaft like 3.2oz would be best. It all depends on the cuemaker & build methods he uses. For me personally, 19-19.5oz, 19-19.5" balance, 13mm, 58" is perfect and for my build formula a 3.7-4.2oz weight range is where I like my shafts.

Hope that helps. And i'm sure you'll get folks telling you how heavier shafts play better but IMO, that's BS. A 3.2oz shaft can play just as solid & lively as a 4.2oz shaft. Took me years to learn that but knowing now what I never knew back when, nobody can convince me otherwise. I choose my shafts by tone more so than anything else because that is the best way for me to determine how playable a shaft will be, regardless of weight. Light shafts range in tone just as much as heavy shafts. If I used brass inserts in my shafts, low 3's is what i'd be targeting for my cues because with an insert they'd give me my 3.7-4.2oz that works correctly with my build techniques. Again, hope this all makes sense.

 

[rhncue]

Prolly doesn't mean much coming from me because I built the cue in question. BUT.....

I would consider 4.2 a heavy shaft. I have had shafts that weigh around 4.5oz but those are just cumbersome. I personally prefer to use 3.7-4.2oz shafts in my cues. I think taper shape, joint type & diameters play a big roll in shaft weight so there's not necessarily an easy way to say what's heavy & what's not. For my taper & joint & 13mm shafts, 4.2oz is edging close to as heavy as I feel comfortable using. Other cues would vary & would have their own specific window of prime weight range. But overall in the big scheme of things, anything 4.0oz & over is generally considered heavy for any cue.

As for good or bad, it's all about the cue & how well the shaft works with it. If it weighs 4.2oz and balances out nicely at a playable weight, then it's a good thing. If it's 4.2oz and makes the cue weigh 22oz with a 22" balance point then maybe it's a bad thing & a lighter shaft like 3.2oz would be best. It all depends on the cuemaker & build methods he uses. For me personally, 19-19.5oz, 19-19.5" balance, 13mm, 58" is perfect and for my build formula a 3.7-4.2oz weight range is where I like my shafts.

Hope that helps. And i'm sure you'll get folks telling you how heavier shafts play better but IMO, that's BS. A 3.2oz shaft can play just as solid & lively as a 4.2oz shaft. Took me years to learn that but knowing now what I never knew back when, nobody can convince me otherwise. I choose my shafts by tone more so than anything else because that is the best way for me to determine how playable a shaft will be, regardless of weight. Light shafts range in tone just as much as heavy shafts. If I used brass inserts in my shafts, low 3's is what i'd be targeting for my cues because with an insert they'd give me my 3.7-4.2oz that works correctly with my build techniques. Again, hope this all makes sense.

Good information.

Dick

 

[scdiveteam]

Hi,

Since all of the things said here about shafts are subjective and the end result is a lot of opinions, I might as well put mine in.

I like to build my cues with a forward balance point and I use various methods to achieve this with one being shafts that are over 4.0. Most of my shaft stock is between 3.8 to 4.6 at .850 and .511 with my taper geometry.

The end result is not really technical or engineering design or methodology but if the pool players like and buy your cue because of playability. Because I have a forward weighted cue, I advertise it as such. If someone does not like it they can buy someone else's cue. I also never put a weight bolt in my cues and if they wish to move the moment arm aft of the fulcrum they can easily get there by inserting a 1/2" - 13 tpi weight in the butt.

At the end of the day I have found that the denser and heavier shafts are better in my opinion. It's just my feelings and that's why my cues will play different than another guy's.

No one is right and no one is wrong. The end result is always the customer who plays with your cue. If he is happy, alls right with the world.

Rick G

 

[JoeyInCali]

Hi,

Since all of the things said here about shafts are subjective and the end result is a lot of opinions, I might as well put mine in.

I like to build my cues with a forward balance point and I use various methods to achieve this with one being shafts that are over 4.0. Most of my shaft stock is between 3.8 to 4.6 at .850 and .511 with my taper geometry.

The end result is not really technical or engineering design or methodology but if the pool players like and buy your cue because of playability. Because I have a forward weighted cue, I advertise it as such. If someone does not like it they can buy someone else's cue. I also never put a weight bolt in my cues and if they wish to move the moment arm aft of the fulcrum they can easily get there by inserting a 1/2" - 13 tpi weight in the butt.

At the end of the day I have found that the denser and heavier shafts are better in my opinion. It's just my feelings and that's why my cues will play different than another guy's. One one is right and no one is wrong. The end result is always the customer who plays with your cue. If he is happy, alls right with the world.

Rick G

I think they ping more and are stiffer.
But, then I have two friends who are very strong shortstops ( they've won first Sunday tournaments at Hard Times ) who like 11.75MM tip and shafts not weighing 3.5 oz or heavier.

 

[qguy]

That avatar is so distracting (That would be joeys avatar ) !!!. Can you send me a link to the full size photo so I can put it as as wallpaper on my pc :thumbup:

I think they ping more and are stiffer.
But, then I have two friends who are very strong shortstops ( they've won first Sunday tournaments at Hard Times ) who like 11.75MM tip and shafts not weighing 3.5 oz or heavier.

 

[icem3n]

Hello everyone. I just picked up a plain jane Sugartree cue by Eric Crisp. It has a wormy maple handle, with an East Indian rosewood forearm and buttsleeve. The cue hits amazing, and I have never seen or played with shafts that are like this. The grain is super tight, and the shafts feel very heavy. I put them on the scale, and they both are 4.2 onces. I was just curious to see if that is considered heavy compared to other cue makers shafts, and if it is a good or bad thing. Any input is much appreciated.
Thanks!
-Dave

JMO, 4.2oz or > is good for cue that has balance point below 18 1/2". It help reduce vertical deflection(or float ~ that what I called em) especially for open bridge player.

 

[ScottR]

Prolly doesn't mean much coming from me because I built the cue in question. BUT.....

I would consider 4.2 a heavy shaft. I have had shafts that weigh around 4.5oz but those are just cumbersome. I personally prefer to use 3.7-4.2oz shafts in my cues. I think taper shape, joint type & diameters play a big roll in shaft weight so there's not necessarily an easy way to say what's heavy & what's not. For my taper & joint & 13mm shafts, 4.2oz is edging close to as heavy as I feel comfortable using. Other cues would vary & would have their own specific window of prime weight range. But overall in the big scheme of things, anything 4.0oz & over is generally considered heavy for any cue.

As for good or bad, it's all about the cue & how well the shaft works with it. If it weighs 4.2oz and balances out nicely at a playable weight, then it's a good thing. If it's 4.2oz and makes the cue weigh 22oz with a 22" balance point then maybe it's a bad thing & a lighter shaft like 3.2oz would be best. It all depends on the cuemaker & build methods he uses. For me personally, 19-19.5oz, 19-19.5" balance, 13mm, 58" is perfect and for my build formula a 3.7-4.2oz weight range is where I like my shafts.

Hope that helps. And i'm sure you'll get folks telling you how heavier shafts play better but IMO, that's BS. A 3.2oz shaft can play just as solid & lively as a 4.2oz shaft. Took me years to learn that but knowing now what I never knew back when, nobody can convince me otherwise. I choose my shafts by tone more so than anything else because that is the best way for me to determine how playable a shaft will be, regardless of weight. Light shafts range in tone just as much as heavy shafts. If I used brass inserts in my shafts, low 3's is what i'd be targeting for my cues because with an insert they'd give me my 3.7-4.2oz that works correctly with my build techniques. Again, hope this all makes sense.

Just to be clear..... you are saying that you like 3.7-4.2oz shafts?

Scott

 

[qbilder]

Just to be clear..... you are saying that you like 3.7-4.2oz shafts?

Scott

Yes. But not because they play better. It's a balance thing for me. If my cues had heavier front ends like SS joints & such, then i'd prefer lighter weight shafts to achieve the correct balance. I'm completely indiscriminate with weight vs. playability. For me, the shaft weight is how I tune the final balance of the cue.

 

[scdiveteam]

Yes. But not because they play better. It's a balance thing for me. If my cues had heavier front ends like SS joints & such, then i'd prefer lighter weight shafts to achieve the correct balance. I'm completely indiscriminate with weight vs. playability. For me, the shaft weight is how I tune the final balance of the cue.

.............................

 

[qbilder]

.............................

Did I lose you?

 

[icem3n]

I might be wrong, I feel that a heavier shaft will play better than a lighter shaft.
A SS joint cue with light shaft will not perform as good as a cue w/ non ss joint w/ heavy shaft. SS joint may help increase the nose weight, but it will still float the shaft if the shaft is light.

Heavier shaft shoot true and stay down better than lighter shaft. Lighter shaft floats and miss shot will occur. Proper grip technique is required to counter this problem or closed bridge can be used.

Given that if you got two cues to choose from, 19" balance point on both cue. One cue is having a 3.8oz and the other a 4.2 oz. I will go for 4.2oz. Just my 0.02.

 

[SCCues]

IMO, over 4 oz is considered heavy, and is generally considered better than light, though weight alone is certainly not the only factor at work.

I agree and usually a shaft over 4 ozs will play a little stiffer than a shaft under 4 ozs.

James

 

[dgem]

I might be wrong, I feel that a heavier shaft will play better than a lighter shaft.
A SS joint cue with light shaft will not perform as good as a cue w/ non ss joint w/ heavy shaft. SS joint may help increase the nose weight, but it will still float the shaft if the shaft is light.

Heavier shaft shoot true and stay down better than lighter shaft. Lighter shaft floats and miss shot will occur. Proper grip technique is required to counter this problem or closed bridge can be used.

Given that if you got two cues to choose from, 19" balance point on both cue. One cue is having a 3.8oz and the other a 4.2 oz. I will go for 4.2oz. Just my 0.02.

Very nice observation..i totally agree with you. :thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:

 

[joyren]

I might be wrong, I feel that a heavier shaft will play better than a lighter shaft.
A SS joint cue with light shaft will not perform as good as a cue w/ non ss joint w/ heavy shaft. SS joint may help increase the nose weight, but it will still float the shaft if the shaft is light.

Heavier shaft shoot true and stay down better than lighter shaft. Lighter shaft floats and miss shot will occur. Proper grip technique is required to counter this problem or closed bridge can be used.

Given that if you got two cues to choose from, 19" balance point on both cue. One cue is having a 3.8oz and the other a 4.2 oz. I will go for 4.2oz. Just my 0.02.

i agree with this being said, but another question lingering in my mind is, would the joint be also a factor to achive solid "hit" feel like using SS, brass,g-10 or wood to wood? or simply the shaft that was used?????

 

[MVPCues]

I think it is tough to avoid weight spikes in a cue. I think that is part of what is being kicked around regarding simply nailing a fulcrum point at a specific location may not be the full picture.

Take very detailed data on each component and their shapes in a cue and use that data to get cross sectional weights given some interval thickness. Integrate (yes, term used loosely for any calculus buffs out there) over the length of the cue to graph the cumulative weight from butt end to tip end too see if the curve is relatively smooth or there are a lot of vertical spikes.

Kelly <probably insane>

 

[qbilder]

I think it is tough to avoid weight spikes in a cue. I think that is part of what is being kicked around regarding simply nailing a fulcrum point at a specific location may not be the full picture.

Take very detailed data on each component and their shapes in a cue and use that data to get cross sectional weights given some interval thickness. Integrate (yes, term used loosely for any calculus buffs out there) over the length of the cue to graph the cumulative weight from butt end to tip end too see if the curve is relatively smooth or there are a lot of vertical spikes.

Kelly <probably insane>

That actually makes a lot of sense & is exactly what I strive for. It's very, very tough to achieve neutral, even weight distribution. Worse yet, tilt it in entirety a hint forward. Yay the fun ...:banghead:

 

[icem3n]

i agree with this being said, but another question lingering in my mind is, would the joint be also a factor to achive solid "hit" feel like using SS, brass,g-10 or wood to wood? or simply the shaft that was used?????

There are simply alot of factors involve to achieve solid hit. You should also be questioning things like:grin-square::
1. What kinda of cue help you deliver a smooth straight cueing?
2. What type of cues (joints/ components) generate more power?

 

[joyren]

There are simply alot of factors involve to achieve solid hit. You should also be questioning things like:grin-square::
1. What kinda of cue help you deliver a smooth straight cueing?
2. What type of cues (joints/ components) generate more power?

maybe the experience cue makers here can reply to question 2