Bca vs Apa

Great players, that's it. This last weekend in Miami Ok. We had Chip Compton, Joey Grey, John Gabriel, Randy Estes, KC Massey, Gary Isabell, and some guy named Gabe Owens showed and played in the Grand Masters finishing second to Shane McMinn. Mark Demick a pro. Trick shot guy plays I. Our league in OKC. At home in OKC we are blessed to play with J Rod, Chuck Musick, Shane Ragland and lots of other great players. None of these great players play APA. Heads up always at high level events.

ummmm, I don't know all (or even most) of those players, but if they're as good as you insinuate, they're probably pros or pro level.

APA specifically prohibits pro's. So yeah, they won't be playing APA.

If you're a pro and need to spend your time beating up on beginners league players, I'm not sure what to say. Yeah, I'd love to get to play with pro's or other top level players. But in league? Really?

Oh yeah, I forgot. It's another reason to look down upon the APA. I keep forgetting that. We in the lower class sometimes forget our place.
 
Okay then!

Mr. Wiggles...No need to bash the APA. It was never designed to attract, or accomodate, the level players that you're listing here. But since you mention Mark...Andy Segal, the current world trick shot champion, is an APA LO in NYC.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

Thanks for the correction, and some mentioned just might also play some APA. I didn't think I was bashing but maybe was. It's too easy to jump on the APA bashing bandwagon and I thought I picked my words with some care but maybe not. Most of my comments were about the quality of players we have in our leagues. Just trying to help that guy make an informed decision. I actually encourage some players to play APA if it's their first rodeo. It's a good place to start for newer players.
 
Mr. Wiggles...No problem! I agree with you, and do the same thing!:thumbup: Sounds like you've got some great competition in your league.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

Thanks for the correction, and some mentioned just might also play some APA. I didn't think I was bashing but maybe was. It's too easy to jump on the APA bashing bandwagon and I thought I picked my words with some care but maybe not. Most of my comments were about the quality of players we have in our leagues. Just trying to help that guy make an informed decision. I actually encourage some players to play APA if it's their first rodeo. It's a good place to start for newer players.
 
Valid point

ummmm, I don't know all (or even most) of those players, but if they're as good as you insinuate, they're probably pros or pro level.

APA specifically prohibits pro's. So yeah, they won't be playing APA.

If you're a pro and need to spend your time beating up on beginners league players, I'm not sure what to say. Yeah, I'd love to get to play with pro's or other top level players. But in league? Really?

Oh yeah, I forgot. It's another reason to look down upon the APA. I keep forgetting that. We in the lower class sometimes forget our place.

Yes 3 of those are very close to pro level, but that is an issue with the BCA organization not my doing. There are complaints sometimes and that's the way it is. I am not a pro just a skilled player who is glad to bump heads with these guys whether they belong or not. I don't look down on any pool player or the APA! Oddly the Grand Masters event was open to anyone, didn't even have to have a BCA card I was told. The BCA is way from perfect. I have read some really rude and crude APA bashers and please don't put me in that group. As much as I enjoy az it seems any opinion seems to upset someone. They say we may get some rain and high winds tomorrow and I hope no one is offended or blames me for that!!
 
i have a question about the ranking systems. im an 8 in the APA which is guess is decent, but how would that stack up speed wise in BCA play?
 
I prefer BCA ove Valley and WAY over APA. I cannot deal with my opponent not having to call ANY BALL until the 8 ball in APA.... Been screwed by that one way too many times playing in APA tournaments. BCA and Valley have nearly the same rules, I believe the only significant difference right now is in BCA if your opponent breaks and scratches, you have ball in hand ANYWHERE on the table now. I sure hope Valley changes their rule to this also!
 
Yes 3 of those are very close to pro level, but that is an issue with the BCA organization not my doing. There are complaints sometimes and that's the way it is. I am not a pro just a skilled player who is glad to bump heads with these guys whether they belong or not. I don't look down on any pool player or the APA! Oddly the Grand Masters event was open to anyone, didn't even have to have a BCA card I was told. The BCA is way from perfect. I have read some really rude and crude APA bashers and please don't put me in that group. As much as I enjoy az it seems any opinion seems to upset someone. They say we may get some rain and high winds tomorrow and I hope no one is offended or blames me for that!!

I promise I won't blame you for the weather! :p Or for anything else.

I'm quite sure that BCApl is a great league to play in, depending on the LO, of course. Just like APA is, depending on the LO. I just try to stick up for the APA occasionally, as it seems that often times it's an easy target, and has become almost a derogatory term. And it's easy to use sweeping generalizations about the almost 300,000 people who play it, many of whom play both leagues.

Have a great day, and stay dry!
 
Off the hook

I promise I won't blame you for the weather! :p Or for anything else.

I'm quite sure that BCApl is a great league to play in, depending on the LO, of course. Just like APA is, depending on the LO. I just try to stick up for the APA occasionally, as it seems that often times it's an easy target, and has become almost a derogatory term. And it's easy to use sweeping generalizations about the almost 300,000 people who play it, many of whom play both leagues.

Have a great day, and stay dry!

Thanks Justadub, sounds like you are regular fellow! Now we can move on with our lives. It takes a lot of energy to hate!! I don't have that much energy! LOL! I once commented that Ewa M.was a horrible announcer and someone called me a pro hater!?!? Have a great day and hit em good.
 
Apa

What a bunch of cry babies.

APA... no ... BCA

I play APA, and yes, it's the only game in town. I started out as a 4, dropped to a 3 and then slowly increased to a 6 over 2 years.

Is there sandbagging??? Yes just like any other handicapped team sport.... bowling and golf .... just to name 2.

Quit whinning about and just get better.... the sand baggers get what they have coming in the end.... I've seen it happen.

Does the league operator make money? Sure he/she does. What do you think, they do it out of the goodness of their heart??? It's a profitable organization.

My league operator has lots of week end tournaments... 8 and 9 ball. Some handicapped and league sanctioned and some un handicapped and not league sanctioned. He kicks in some money at tournaments, buys free tee shirts and free captain jackets. He puts on a buffet at holiday time. I can't complain. An yea, he makes money from us. Good for him.

League night is a fun night ,,,, a few beers and laughs with friends. It is also a social event. Why do people have to make so much of it?? Do I play to win? yes I give it my best shot every game. I win some and I lose some.

Handicaps allow all to play. A team is a group of varying abilities. The 6's and 7's sometimes get beat by the 3's. Just change your tampax and get over it and play better if you lose.

The 23 rule. How would your team of 3's, 4's and 5's like to play a full team of 7's every week?? It is done so you can't load a team and win consistantly. To win, you must play at or above your handicap level. Some thing wrong with that???????????????

I only play at the local pool rooms and not in bars where they smoke. The league plays on 9' tables there.

If you need to bit_ch so much about it, MAYBE YOU DON'T HAVE ENOUGH SKILL TO PLAY IN A HANDICAPPED LEAGUE. It does add another element of challenge.

I have fun playing APA and I will keep doing it. I win some and I lose some and I keep trying to increase my skills.

Be kind to your fellow man/woman.... think about why you make derogatory remarks about others. Maybe it is really about you.

Kim
 
Quit whinning about and just get better.... the sand baggers get what they have coming in the end.... I've seen it happen.
Kim

Yep , they get a 2 year suspension . Then they come back , load a new team of 'baggers , and win the $25,000 National Championship. . . . I've seen it happen (this year!) :(


not a "bash" , just the facts as reported on AzB.
 
Aren't we lucky?

Not everyone has a choice, so I guess I consider myself lucky to have both BCA and APA in my area.

When I first started playing, I was in both leagues. The competition in the BCA was a little strong, and I found that APA was more fun for me as a beginner and my APA team happened to be really supportive. So, I dropped BCA. I also found that Singles program offered opportunities to be competitive at a national level much earlier in my learning curve than BCA could. (I always had fun and felt like I got my money's worth, so I don't really care how much money the LO or national office made off of me.)

Eventually, I found myself ready for some stronger competition, and just wanted a change, so I switched. (My area has very little sandbagging, but I got tired of everyone complaining about skill levels, and same as the OP, I was tired of the drama that can crop up in bars).

I'm happy playing BCA. But if it was my only option when I started, personally, I'm not sure I would have stuck it out. On the other hand, I may have improved faster. If I were playing in one of the APA areas with a stronger field and divisions in pool rooms instead of bars, I'd probably make the time to play both.

Either way, OP, I hope you find a league that makes you happy. I'm sure the APA will take you back if you decide to try BCA for awhile, and don't like it.

(I'm impressed. This thread actually made it to something like page 3 before it went agro!)
 
I played in the APA for about 9 years, and the BCA for 3. Both leagues have their merrits. The APA format offers more strategy in terms of matching-up players to determine who wins the match for the night, but in my area, the BCA attracts much better players. There are a couple of BCA rules that I think are silly: 1) Calling safe, making a ball, and your opponent now has to shoot. In the APA, if you want to play a safety, you are forced to shoot a real safety. 2) Scratch on the 8-ball is just ball in hand. IMO, that should be game over anywhere on the planet.

You mentioned that you are a 4 in the APA, and I will tell you that an APA 4 would be VERY frustrated to compete in my local BCA league. A 5 would still lose most of the time, and a 6 would just begin to actually compete.

Try them both, and then you'll know the whole story and be able to make your own decision. No one league, format, or game can all things to all people.
 
by far, BCA is better than the APA,u have to win to go to vegas in the APA,BCA however if u play 8 matches in a BCA sanctioned league u can play in ANY of the events in the BCA VEGAS TOURNEY!!!!
 
APA Masters?

Here in Colorado Springs there is an APA Masters league (not that I'm a Master by any stretch of the imagination) that doesn't adhere to the "23 point" rule. It's a combination of 8 & 9 ball that is a race to 7 for any skill level. So yes it's based towards better players since it's not handicapped but anyone/any level can play. But it's generally filled with 6's & 7's. Does this not exist in every place there's APA?

I play a non-handicapped BCA league as well and MUUUCCCHHH prefer the format of the APA league I play. The only reason I still play BCA is because I can't qualify or attempt to qualify for APA Singles since I'm not in a "23" league. I despise the particular BCA league I'm in (high country) as it's played on one table in a race to 13 playing each person once. So I play and then sit for an hour and I'm there until Midnight sometimes.

So for me the answer is I prefer the Rules of BCA, the format & time frame of my APA league.
 
jojopiff...There are not Masters leagues for every APA franchise area. There could be, if the LO felt there was enough interest. Tough to run a league with 15-20 good players...which is all there are in some league areas. Personally, I think the APA Masters is a great idea. I wish they would have had that when I was an APA LO 20 yrs ago!

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

Here in Colorado Springs there is an APA Masters league (not that I'm a Master by any stretch of the imagination) that doesn't adhere to the "23 point" rule. It's a combination of 8 & 9 ball that is a race to 7 for any skill level. So yes it's based towards better players since it's not handicapped but anyone/any level can play. But it's generally filled with 6's & 7's. Does this not exist in every place there's APA?

I play a non-handicapped BCA league as well and MUUUCCCHHH prefer the format of the APA league I play. The only reason I still play BCA is because I can't qualify or attempt to qualify for APA Singles since I'm not in a "23" league. I despise the particular BCA league I'm in (high country) as it's played on one table in a race to 13 playing each person once. So I play and then sit for an hour and I'm there until Midnight sometimes.

So for me the answer is I prefer the Rules of BCA, the format & time frame of my APA league.
 
jojopiff...There are not Masters leagues for every APA franchise area. There could be, if the LO felt there was enough interest. Tough to run a league with 15-20 good players...which is all there are in some league areas. Personally, I think the APA Masters is a great idea. I wish they would have had that when I was an APA LO 20 yrs ago!

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

we have a masters league here. not many teams in it. i think there is 6 if my memory is correct. one team is all 4s and 5s , maybe 1 6 on it. team name ? we aint scared. lol
 
I believe there are 2 nights of masters here and the one I'm in has 10 teams total, 5-6 of which are good and 3-4 can win it. The other night has 8 or 9 teams but can't speak to the level of play though. A couple teams have an SL5 and the like but the 3-4 top teams have mostly 7's with a few 6's. Nice competition.

But again the skill levels shown are just FYI. I was listed as a SL5 until just recently because I don't play in "23" league so my handicap wasn't moving up or down. I'm listed as a SL7 now and that maybe accurate but people (that I didn't know) would get pissed when they played me because "I didn't play like a 5". I was called a sandbagger but last time I played in handicapped APA league was 5 years ago'ish and my SL was accurate then.
 
Dear Mark,
I shouldn’t do this but the more I read the letter from Bill Stork the more I don’t care what you do to me! You were sneaky and unprofessional in your attempt at stopping me from 1) proving that I had a case by petitioning the league for 54.17% in favor of changing the rule. 2) Your dealing with the www.juandefucapoolleague.com and their unprofessional attempt at de-sanctioning of me 3) Their fraudulent use of the CODE OF ETHICS 4) Their fraudulent use of the League Operator Rules 5) Their commitment to change the Rules Handbook 6) Their commitment to be untruthful about everything that has happened. But I simply can not resist. So here goes, please continue to read this.
1) During the petitioning of the league not one player was disturbed by our discussion with them and no one was bothered during their game. I have a witness to this, ready and willing to testify. I received a 54.17% in favor of changing back to the BCAPL rules immediately. I had received all but two of those votes by Jan 14, 2011 while Trish and Kevin were on a bye week. The following week I received one vote from another player who was not playing (+) myself. How does that give Trish the right to claim interference with her league? If any of her players were reading the items on the bulletin board that’s their prerogative I can’t be held responsible for that.
2) Check their web-site it shows 24 players with 5, 4 man teams and no subs in fact see the bottom of the page that covers week #17 high lighted in yellow is this statement “If you need a sub, either reschedule the match or call someone from the bye team.” That’s not enough players for sanctioning a league and constitutes fraud if she didn’t make you aware of it before the beginning of the league year and to you also if you were aware. It’s a violation of the League Operator Manual & the League Sanctioning Rules.
3) Read the CODE OF ETHICS :
We shall not engage in illegal activity involving moral turpitude or conduct involving dishonesty, fraud, deceit or misrepresentation.

We shall not make a material false statement, nor deliberately fail to disclose a material requested fact, in
connection with an application for sanctioning with the BCAPL

We shall at all times treat all players, other leagues and the public with dignity, respect and courtesy.

We shall always conduct ourselves and our league business in a fair and honest manner refraining at all times from conduct or practices that inhibit the expansion of pool leagues or that reflect discredit upon the sport other BCAPL-sanctioned (or advertised as to be sanctioned) leagues or the BCAPL

We shall not engage in or permit any unauthorized use of the Association's name or logo or the unauthorized use of any other materials in which the BCAPL claims a proprietary interest.

We shall not misrepresent the existence or availability of BCAPL sanctioning for any league or player.

Affirmation
League Operators are bound to abide by the aforementioned Pledge and Code of Ethics as a condition of sanctioning with the BCA Pool League, subject to the review of the BCAPL. The BCAPL reserves the right to deny any applicant, as well as revoke any league sanctioning from an operator it deems, at its sole and absolute discretion, operates in an unfair or dishonest manner, inhibits the expansion of pool leagues, LIKE TRISHES REDUCTION IN NUMBER OF LEAGUE MEMBERS DURING 2009/2010 & 2010/2011 LEAGUE YEARS, discredits the sport or other BCAPL sanctioned leagues, discredits the BCAPL or operates to undermine the growth of the BCAPL league system by negligent, unethical or immoral behavior. SEE THE LAST COMMENT #2 ABOVE.
League Operator_________________________________________________Date____________________

Well She has broken 5 out of 6 of those.

4) 30 players with 6, 4 man teams, where are they. Were You Aware? Your Web-Site States this at least TEN TIMES?
5) She has committed to polluting the Rules Handbook by a game called call pocket 9-Ball.
Under the BCAPL Rules Book USA Pool League Match Playing Rules.
BCA PL Rules: Unless contradicted or amended in these regulations, The Official Rules of the BCA pool league will govern play. By these rules we are talking about the players Handbook.
THE CREATION OF THE BCAPL RULES

When Mark Griffin purchased the BCAPL, he realized that roughly 65,000 players had no set of rules to specifically govern league play. The prior organization had been using World Standardized Rules for many years – rules which were predominantly written for professional play and often criticized for their inconsistency. Mark realized the only way to rectify the situation was to create “The Official Rules of the BCAPL”.




In late 2006, Mark put together a team to begin this massive project. Leading the group was BCAPL Rules Administrator Bill Stock. National Senior Referees Buddy Eick and Ken Shuman served as Technical Editors. Over the next 6 months, the team solicited input from its league operators and players. They researched the history of league play, consulted with their current referee staff, and reviewed rule books and formats produced by other sports organizations. Mark provided the necessary policy guidance on behalf of the National Office.

By August 2007 a final draft was ready and the first edition of the Official Rules of the BCAPL became effective on October 1, 2007. The second edition was released on June 1, 2008, and will be updated on June 1 of each year.

We believe our product is the most complete, detailed, and easy to understand set of rules in the industry today. Others seem to share our opinion. World-renowned billiard historian, author, and rules expert Mike Shamos agrees that the BCAPL has taken a major step in improving the game. The following article, reprinted here with his permission, appears in the July 2008 edition of Billiards Digest:
Bills problem here is that he is not an attorney and didn’t seek out the advise of one before placing the Oct. 1st, 2007 rules into effect. Therefore he didn’t know that they were in direct conflect with rules already in effect and that by creating the new rules, by date, he would automatically make those old rules of non-effect and should have removed them, so they just sat there waiting for conflect
6) She wants to complain that I interfered with the teams in the league, Never happened I have witnesses!

Who was it that told you that the Juan De Fuca Pool League had 32 members? 1st Code of Ethics. Fraud, deceit, and misrepresentation. Is this fair and honest? Does it expand Pool Leagues? Please see their Web-Site and then go to week #17 and read the item highlighted in yellow.
And who was it that told you that I had interfered with the League Play? 1st Code of Ethics. Fraud, deceit & misrepresentation!
How was my de-sanctioning done with respect and courtesy, it was done impersonally by mail. Without mention of petitioning or of hearing by a jury of my piers just presumed guilt. So much for the misrepresenting or availability of sanctioning for me. What about your obligation for in a “fair and honest manner”? What happen to”dignity, respect and courtesy”?
And what about reflecting discredit upon the sport the BCAPL sanctioned (or advertised to be sanctioned) leagues or the BCAPL when others hear about this?
And what about this? Effective June 1, 2010
Rules Changes for 2010-2011 Edition of the Official Rules of the BCA Pool League
Please email Bill Stock at bills@playcsipool.com with any questions regarding these and any BCAPL rules. I did this and now he’s complaining.) From the de-sanctioning letter from Bill Stork. Equally bothersome is the time and effort our office has spent to explain our policies to you. What a statement as one of the cause of this letter.

There is oh so much more that I would like to post from your Web-Siteand E-Mails but room will not permit it.
As much good as you do for the game of pool you are equally destroying it by your position on your own rules, hence you recent lack of growth. Get a clue Mark Griffin! Once again make me a member in good standing and include a letter of apology.
Thank You,
C. Carl McConnell


One of the main reasons why you should play BCAPL is that we (the staff of BCAPL) actually are all pool players.

We read the AZ Forums and we will make comments.

We are invovled in the whole industry - from the players on up.

We add many thousands of dollars to state, local, regional, and national events.

We think we have the best program out there - I am sure others feel the same about their product also - but we offer more options to more players.

And how often do you get a response from the CEO in under an hour?!?!?!?

Seriously, if you have any comments or suggestions, please contact our office 702-719-7665. Thanks

Mark Griffin, CEO
CSI
BCAPL
USAPL
 
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