Documentation or it didn't happen.
Early 70's point blanks.
- Thread starter cueman
- Start date
Documentation or it didn't happen.
I am in full agreeance.
The cue world is full of rumors, who worked for whom, who inlaid who's cues, where did so and so buy the blanks..
It's very easy, if you make a claim, please just show something tangible. Last I looked the Billiard Encyclopedia and the Blue Book did not have big gold crosses on the covers. You want faith, look elsewhere, we want facts.
JV
Well I don't usually do this but
Nick,
No we have never had anybody make blanks for us. However ... I used to make blanks for Gus when he first started making cues.
I've never bought any Spain blanks. When I started Spain sold to Palmer, Balabushka and a few others. Gus bought from Palmer (I made some for him also) then from me (Joss) and decided that he could do better than all of us ... and he did.
The construction you are describing was how most of us made cues back then. The fiber at the back end of the points and under the wrap was natural or black. Very tough to glue to at that time and a lot of cues developed a rattle when the face to face glue bond broke loose.
The Joint is not my joint and the rings at the joint are not my rings. Looks like there has been some repair work going on here. This cue was made after 1972 because
The "Joss" on the butt plate was done by me and I didn't start engraving until after 1972.
That's all the information that my brain can remember from that far back.
Best Regards,
Dan
www.josscues.com
Nick
Nick,
No we have never had anybody make blanks for us. However ... I used to make blanks for Gus when he first started making cues.
I've never bought any Spain blanks. When I started Spain sold to Palmer, Balabushka and a few others. Gus bought from Palmer (I made some for him also) then from me (Joss) and decided that he could do better than all of us ... and he did.
The construction you are describing was how most of us made cues back then. The fiber at the back end of the points and under the wrap was natural or black. Very tough to glue to at that time and a lot of cues developed a rattle when the face to face glue bond broke loose.
The Joint is not my joint and the rings at the joint are not my rings. Looks like there has been some repair work going on here. This cue was made after 1972 because
The "Joss" on the butt plate was done by me and I didn't start engraving until after 1972.
That's all the information that my brain can remember from that far back.
Best Regards,
Dan
www.josscues.com
Nick
While y'all are arguing, I'm going to play pool.
I sent this thread to Bob and he is not a web guy, but he had someone read him what it said on here. He said his year dates are a little fuzzy in his mind, but he knows he was making wood veneer blanks when Martin Luther King Jr was killed. That is an event that sticks in his mind. He said the most credible living witness would be Helmstetter. He also told me I was wrong about when he made the first plastic veneer points. It was when he was at National and not when at Wico. He made them both places and made the wood veneer points first. So I think I should have said late 60's point blanks as the thread title since MLK Jr died in 1968. He said if someone has a 40 plus year old receipt that they keep more stuff around than he has.
He said I should ask the ones who doubt he built blanks for George, "who built them during the time Burton stop making them for a few years, before Gus started making them?"
He said I should ask the ones who doubt he built blanks for George, "who built them during the time Burton stop making them for a few years, before Gus started making them?"
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Regardless of who and when, no proof, no puddin'. Burton - Davis - Szamboti thats a pretty easy fill in. In fact, it's in Burtons book as a continuous timeline, so that's that.
As far as Joss Inc.. well, all I can say is one of them claims to have taught Gus, now one is saying supply. Either way, again, there is proof required. Show me one Gus that looks anything like the early Joss cues in the thread in this section and we'll talk. He also could have bought 3 of them said "I could do better" and chucked them in the fireplace. We just don't know.
The record should be straight, and I am all for the corrections if there is some sort of proof.
JV
Because Burton said something, you call it a fact. Because Bob said something you say it needs proof. You mentioned earlier if Balner said something that would be accepted. It seems you will believe just about everyone except Bob. Say what you want, but there seems to be more of an ax to grind that you have here than you are telling us about.
How did Joss get brought into this?????
Its called collaboration.. You have Burtons book, you have Balner, you have Barry, you have Joel (in Burtons absence) and you have John Davis. Here you have one guy saying he supplied blanks to another, and the other cannot say one way or the other, cause he is dead.
I have no issues with Bob. In fact he made my first cue when I started playing pool. In fact it's a cue I am going to tributize soon. Sorry, I like proof, no proof, oh well. Like I said there has been plenty of opportunity for these things to come to light, and it's strange that for 20 years, it's never been mentioned. (Only since it's been printed in the ICA sight, coincidentally)
Joss, see Nick's contribution to the thread.
The other thing is show me a cue, for Gods sake man, how many Botis and Bushka's have I seen and NONE I mean NONE fall out of the known cue history. I have seen Bushka blanks that were sloppy, but I think anyone could have a bad day. I have never seen a Gus blank that could even remotely be confused with a Joss. Would Joss have made blanks superior to their own for a customer? I have seen a lot of cues from the first Meucci catalog, nothing would be confused with a Bushka. Nothing adds up when this is discussed and nothing concrete has surfaced.
Again, if it's true and can be proven, I am all for the inclusion of the facts into the next book, the record, call it what you want.
JV
Chris,
(Just to make clear to anybody who might be confused, I am not the Tate Cuesblues is referring to.).
I have several of the Palmer's with the vinyl veneered forearms Bob made. Peter Balner said he bought them from Bob Meucci directly - about 100 of them, possibly a little more. These are easy to ID because they have 4 ebony prongs and colorful vinyl veneers.
Palmer was concerned that the vinyl veered forearms wouldn't last - so they decided not to buy anymore (as it turns out, they lasted fine!).
Now, as far as a date, the parts used on these cues were all late 1960's parts. I would say 1968 to 1969 time period. I believe that Burton Spain showed Bob the vinyl veneer idea and Bob ran with it. I remember reading about it in Burton's memoirs. The quality of these forearms is exceptionally good. The points are even and the veneers are still colorful and sharp.
To me it makes sense that Bob may have sold both to George and Gus in the early 1970's. We know for sure that Gus made some cues with the vinyl veneered forearms - so there is no question Gus bought them. Gus didn't start making his own forearms until about 1973 or so and started selling them to Palmer for their custom cues. I think Bob has his dates flip flopped on the vinyl forearms - he was making them late 1960's to early 1970's.
The question is Balabushka. John Davis told me he sold blanks to George for about 1 year, before George decided to use someone else. That would make it through 1970 - 1971. Gus didn't start until 1973. If I recall the story, George never told John who he was buying from, or thast he was going to buy somewhere else, he just stopped ordering.
So, it's possible that the Bushka's made in 1971- 1972 were indeed Meucci forearms. Obviously these would all be short splice. It could be that George had enough Spain/Davis blanks to carry him through 1971 and 1972 and he didn't need the Meucci forearms. How many cues was George making anyway at that time? Anyway - there is a lot of credibility to this story. As John Davis once said "when the forearms are made from the same materials, the same way, who can tell the difference?". In any case, as far as George's cues go, if any were made with Meucci forearms, it could only be a handful. Chris, one question I would ask Bob would be, for George's blanks, did he use birdseye on the forearms or straight maple? John and Burton didn't use birdseye on George's blanks - I guess George didn't think it was solid.
Is there any way to distinctly identify the forearms he sold to Gus and George? I agree that it would be hard to re-write history without more evidence.
Chris
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This is good info. However all the Wico Palmers I have come across are first catalog cues. So when exactly did the catalogs and production possible overlap?
According to the books, it was 1972 when Gus started making his own blanks. In conjunction with Palmer, Gus blanks show in both the second and third catalog cues. ""when the forearms are made from the same materials, the same way, who can tell the difference?"." Unfortunately this was not the case, it's why a Gus blank is distinguishable from another, same with Spain etc.. the results were different. Plus Bob says there are differences, according to Chris.
Now in my search for the truth, I came across a few Gus cues that even I would consider suspect. On chalkers site there is a Gus with black, green, black, and natural veneers (very common Joss colors) and on the Billiardcue site, under sold, there is a Gus with black, natural, red, natural veneers that I would also peg the Joss shop with. I would like the truth and those cues if I came across them would be suspect. I would make sure I let Barry see both of them. BTW I would also want to know how many Tascarella letters say forearm by Meucci?
Again, it's about the truth, not right or wrong. Also with the amount of years that have gone by, everyones memory is a little suspect. You have no idea how much spraying cue finish will delete some brain cells.
JV
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I taught Gus Szamboti to make blanks over the telephone while I was still in Baltimore.
You can ask his wife. She still remembered last time I talked with her.
Barry probably remembers as well.
I think it was before 1972. After he made his first blank he called me to complain that one of the colors looked way darker that the others.
I asked him to explain his exact process.
He went through everything and I discovered that because of the size of one of the colored veneers he had cut it the wrong direction so that the end grain was showing. Hence the darker color.
He never had a problem with blanks after that.
I don't think Gus ever bought anything from Meucci. I know Danny and I didn't. We did buy 3 blanks from Wico. The first three.
Bill Stroud
You can ask his wife. She still remembered last time I talked with her.
Barry probably remembers as well.
I think it was before 1972. After he made his first blank he called me to complain that one of the colors looked way darker that the others.
I asked him to explain his exact process.
He went through everything and I discovered that because of the size of one of the colored veneers he had cut it the wrong direction so that the end grain was showing. Hence the darker color.
He never had a problem with blanks after that.
I don't think Gus ever bought anything from Meucci. I know Danny and I didn't. We did buy 3 blanks from Wico. The first three.
Bill Stroud
Good info Bill.
I asked Barry Szamboti about this. I just got an e-mail from him. To his knowledge his dad just bought a small quantity of the vinyl veneered WICO blanks prior to 1972 and that was it. He didn't use another purchased blank after that.
Joe, I agree that the dates on the vinyl veneered blanks go back to earlier than 1970. The cues I have with them are all from the late 1960's. Palmer used the 1st catalog designs all through the 1960's. The 2nd catalog came out later than most people think, but even then the First Catalog designs were available on special order, so there was some overlap.
Chris
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There is definately a big difference in buying a blank, or explaining to Gus how to arrange the veneers to cut the same. So according to Barry, Gus cues are Wico / Gus blanked. Which is what we all have gone by for the last 20 years. So I am good with that.
JV
The Bold quote above is the colors Bob said he mostly made for George and Gus.This is good info. However all the Wico Palmers I have come across are first catalog cues. So when exactly did the catalogs and production possible overlap?
According to the books, it was 1972 when Gus started making his own blanks. In conjunction with Palmer, Gus blanks show in both the second and third catalog cues. ""when the forearms are made from the same materials, the same way, who can tell the difference?"." Unfortunately this was not the case, it's why a Gus blank is distinguishable from another, same with Spain etc.. the results were different. Plus Bob says there are differences, according to Chris.
Now in my search for the truth, I came across a few Gus cues that even I would consider suspect. On chalkers site there is a Gus with black, green, black, and natural veneers (very common Joss colors) and on the Billiardcue site, under sold, there is a Gus with black, natural, red, natural veneers that I would also peg the Joss shop with. I would like the truth and those cues if I came across them would be suspect. I would make sure I let Barry see both of them. BTW I would also want to know how many Tascarella letters say forearm by Meucci?
Again, it's about the truth, not right or wrong. Also with the amount of years that have gone by, everyones memory is a little suspect. You have no idea how much spraying cue finish will delete some brain cells.
JV
Can you bring yourself to say Meucci / Gus blanks, or must we continure to substitute Wico for Meucci?
If that is the case then I guess we should say National blanks instead of Meucci blanks for the earlier wood blanks as well as the vinyl veneer ones that came before his time at Wico. Then I think we might need to find out if Spain ever worked another job while making blanks and start calling those by that company instead of Spain.
I HAVE A QUESTION....... IF IT'S BEEN "WICO" BLANKS FOR YEARS, WHY THE NEED TO CHANGE THE WAY THEY ARE REFERRED TO NOW? THE STORY AS I'VE ALWAYS KNOWN IT, INCLUDES THAT MEUCCI BUILT THEM, THEY ARE JUST NOT REFERRED TO THAT WAY.
AS FAR AS THE OTHER STUFF BEING TALKED ABOUT HERE, IMO, WITHOUT PAPERWORK NONE OF IT MATTERS. RE-WRITING ANY PART OF HISTORY IS DIFFICULT, INCLUDING CUE HISTORY.
IF THERE WERE NO HOLES IN "BLANK MAKING HISTORY" FOR THE LAST 30 YEARS, WHY ALL OF A SUDDEN IS THERE A HOLE THAT BOBS BLANKS NOW FILL?
Marcus
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They're actually pretty rare too - Gus told him he only bought a dozen of the Wico blanks. Barry had asked both his mom and dad about this.
Chris
I can't speak for Joe, but I called them BMC blanks when I referred to Palmer, because Palmer bought them from Bob himself.
Barry himself has referred to them as WICO - so that's why I referred to them that way. I think his dad specifically called them WICO blanks.
Chris
It's part of the cue making mystique - and I imagine there are a lot of people laughing about this nerdy discussion.
Well, there has always been a little secrecy in the cue making field. I had heard that Gordon Hart denied buying blanks from Burton Spain, yet Burton talks about what a great customer Gordon was and all the elaborate blanks Gordon ordered.
I have, in fact, cues that were made by others off recognizable Palmer blanks - and Palmer has no clue how the other cue maker's got them! Palmer hated making blanks - they only did it when they had to to make production demands, but it took time away from their custom orders and backlogged dealer's cues.
I actually stopped using the term WICO when I found out that Palmer bought them from Bob. The vinyl stacked veneer concept was created by Burton Spain and executed by Bob Meucci, then shown to Viking when Bob decided to stop making them.
I think if we continue to call them WICO everybody knows what we mean.
Chris
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Bill,
When you say you bought them from WICO, did you actually pay them or pay Bob?
Also, what year do you think it was?
Do you know who the first cue maker was to make what is now the traditional short spliced blanks? Was it you and Dan? Or could it have been Bob? That was certainly around the time period.
Chris
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