Is it possible to throw an object ball? Nope

Famous Quotes from AZ Billiards ... this needs to be in a lot of posters signature line...


Thanks Bob, again,

Bob Jewett said:
If pool players had to have knowledge of geometry and physics before talking about geometry and physics, all of the aiming threads would disappear.
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It is a shame

i have seen people try to get a web conversation going on this site about really interesting pool related subjects & it fizzles out after 4 or 5 posts.

It never ceases to amaze me how something like this generates so many posts.

If i wrote in claiming “that the cue ball does not actually travel forward after being contacted by the pool cue” i wonder how much discussion it would generate.

I will probably get blasted for writing this post, but at this point i really do not care.

SLIM
 
SLIM said:
i have seen people try to get a web conversation going on this site about really interesting pool related subjects & it fizzles out after 4 or 5 posts.

It never ceases to amaze me how something like this generates so many posts.

If i wrote in claiming “that the cue ball does not actually travel forward after being contacted by the pool cue” i wonder how much discussion it would generate.

I will probably get blasted for writing this post, but at this point i really do not care.

SLIM
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Probably because this claim is somewhat plausible, and you can clearly see how someone (even a pro) could be convinced otherwise.
 
No i don't

mohrt said:
probably because this claim is somewhat plausible, and you can clearly see how someone (even a pro) could be convinced otherwise.
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i do not see how you can convince anyone that there is no such thing as throwing an unfrozen object ball.

SLIM
 
mohrt said:
Can an object ball be thrown?
...
Ron claims it is impossible to throw an object ball. :confused:

Firstly, we are not talking about frozen balls, they can be thrown all day. What we are talking about specifically: a cueball striking an object ball, forcing/throwing the object ball along a different path by transferring spin from the cueball to the object ball. This cannot be done, says Ron.
...
It still seems odd, but I couldn't prove him wrong.
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The answer to your question is: YES!!!

And lots of proof can be found in the videos, articles, and examples provided here:

Check it out. If you don't feel like looking at all of the explanations and resources, at least watch the following video:

Now, as Bob Jewett pointed out, you don't need to acknowledge or believe that throw exists to be a top player; however, in pool, I generally think it is better to know than not know, or at least be aware of what you don't know.

Enjoy,
Dave
 
SLIM said:
i do not see how you can convince anyone that there is no such thing as throwing an unfrozen object ball.

SLIM
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We are not talking about convincing someone you can't throw, but rather believing it can't be done if you have never been proven otherwise.
 
SLIM said:
huh??????????
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I'll try again... This is not about convincing someone to believe spin-induced throw doesn't exist when they already know it does. Rather, it is about someone concluding this on their own, and they have not been convinced otherwise.

As for spin-induced throw, this case is plausible. As for your argument about the cueball moving after contact, not so much.
 
Question:"How do you aim/pocket balls Earl?"
Answer:"I spin/throw most of my cut shots in." Johnnyt
 
What language are you reading & writing?

mohrt said:
i'll try again... This is not about convincing someone to believe spin-induced throw doesn't exist when they already know it does. Rather, it is about someone concluding this on their own, and they have not been convinced otherwise.

As for spin-induced throw, this case is plausible. As for your argument about the cueball moving after contact, not so much.
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you mean to tell me that this thread is not trying to imply:

You cannot throw an unfrozen object ball

cause that is how i read it, and that is just stupid

SLIM
 
mohrt said:
Visiting Ron Vitello this weekend, I learned of something I did not believe at first. Can an object ball be thrown? I've always assumed "of course", as just about any book you read explains how to throw a ball. You put spin on the cueball, it strikes the object ball, transferring the spin and the object ball moves off its natural course. However, Ron claims it is impossible to throw an object ball. :confused:
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Nothing to be confused about. This is basic. Ron Vitello is very mistaken.

-Ira
 
Bob Jewett said:
There are several simple demonstrations of throw, and if you know the physics involved, it's easy to see why throw must happen given a few simple observations. Here is the demo I like. With both the cue ball and object ball exactly one ball diameter off the cushion, it is possible to make the object ball hit the GB (gauge ball) and get the cue ball to move towards the cushion, ending less than a ball from the cushion. (The question that the diagram was designed for was to find out how far apart the balls could be and still get this result -- closer is easier.)
View attachment 178573
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I like this demo.
 
dr_dave said:
Now, as Bob Jewett pointed out, you don't need to acknowledge or believe that throw exists to be a top player; however, in pool, I generally think it is better to know than not know, or at least be aware of what you don't know.
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So true. Unfortunately, you apparently don't need to know throw exists to be a top teacher, either...
 
Me:
Throw (and transferred spin) is produced by the rubbing friction between the CB and OB surfaces as they're in contact with each other. Their surfaces rub against each other in opposite directions along the tangent line - none of this friction force is directed "through" the OB (along the CB's initial path) and none of the CB's forward momentum is part of the force that throws/spins the OB. All of the CB's forward momentum that is transferred to the OB is directed along the "pre-throw" OB path - this path is only changed by the rubbing friction.
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Jaden:
It is the CB's forward momentum that causes the rubbing friction.
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How would the CB's forward momentum cause the sideways rubbing in the case of straight shots with sidespin?

It's the sideways rubbing friction that causes throw for both straight and cut shots. For cut shots, the CB's redirected motion (along the tangent line) causes the "sideways" rubbing.

Maybe you mean the CB's forward momentum brings the two surfaces together with enough force for the friction to develop?

With sharper angles the momentum is carried through the OB causing the rubbing friction to change the exit angle.

The OB follows the exact path that the CB is in line with when the contact ends.

inside spin causes the CB to hug the inside of the OB after initial contact and shortens the angle and outside spin causes the CB to push through and widens the angle. draw pulls the CB away and tends to better keep the natural angle and follow tends to push the CB through the OB and widen the angle, but all of this is contingent upon the cut angle and speed of the shot.

/Combinations of different spin will have varying effects....

You can actually draw in a way that causes the angle to be widened, if you have just a slight angle and strike the CB hard enough to keep forward momentum and this proves that CB momentum plays a roll....
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This is all pretty incomprehensible.

pj
chgo
 
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iralee said:
So true. Unfortunately, you apparently don't need to know throw exists to be a top teacher, either...
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I guess that depends on your definition of "top". If that means "popular in certain crowds", then you apparently don't need to know much of anything about physics, geometry or logic.

pj
chgo
 
ok, i'll post 10k ,but I want to see someone make an OB go around another OB and then pocket the ball..

I want all those smart braniacs to put up there own money.

You know the guys with the PHD'S. And if you really want to do this you all have to come to NYC..
let me know when you get your corp. together to raise the money,I'll use my own...

RONV.
 
Neil said:
Sounds like a difference of "throwing" a ball and "curving, or masse'ing" a ball. Making an ob go on a different path than the ghost ball path is very possible, curving an ob, I don't believe is possible.
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Agreed. If people think curving an OB is possible, they should look at the videos, analysis, and Bob's experiment here:

Regards,
Dave
 
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