Stroke Instructor Challenge

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luckwouldhaveit

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
This is a very simple 2 question challenge to the stroke instructors out there.

1) What is proper alignment? In terms of the plane your body/arms make with the ball and what direction the cue should be pointing in.

2) What do you think is the most important (stroke) factor in controlling the cue ball? Assume an accurate delivery of the cue.


-------------------------------------------------- Part 1 --------------------------------------------------

Let's focus on 2 lines and the relationship between them:

1) The line formed by your elbow and shoulder
2) The line formed by your grip hand and elbow

Stand up straight with your arms by your side. Contract only the bicep of your shooting arm. Does your arm (line 2) move straight up towards your shoulder? Or does it go inwards towards your chest? It should go inwards towards your chest. This is what I consider your body's natural stroking motion.

For the sake of comparison, contract only your bicep so that line 2 does move straight towards your shoulder. Does it feel like you're working a slightly different part of your muscle?

Instead of positioning your hand, elbow, and shoulder in a straight line with a shot, I advocate an alignment in which line 2 points inwards towards your body in relation to line 1 So your shoulder will jut out, and the line/movement of your hand and elbow will pivot in a line inside of your shoulder. The line formed by your shoulder and elbow will be angled away from the shot (outwards from the body) - in order for the motion of your grip hand and elbow to be lined up with the shot.

Here's a good picture representation. Notice how line 1 points away from the shot and how much line 2 crosses the body in relation to it.

rsz_img_2724.jpg


You'll see this type of alignment used by Mika, Shane, Alex P, Corteza, Efren, and the list goes on and on. Bustamante and McCready are frequently cited in discussions around variations in alignments and how anything can work. However, I'd counter that they have the same basic arm alignment as the others. The entire stroking plane is just angled - line 1, line 2, and the stroking line of the cue have the same or at least a highly similar relationship.

Try visualizing Bustamante's stroke plane rotated and compare to the above.

francisco-bustamante-million1.jpg


Same goes for Keith. Notice the similarities in the line 1 - line 2 relationship.

67501102_TrVha-M-1.jpg


So those are my thoughts on stroke alignment. Feel free to disagree with me and I encourage you to state your own opinions.
 
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luckwouldhaveit said:
This is a very simple 2 question challenge to the stroke instructors out there.

1) What is proper alignment? In terms of the plane your body/arms make with the ball and what direction the cue should be pointing in.

2) What do you think is the most important (stroke) factor in controlling the cue ball? Assume an accurate delivery of the cue.
Click to expand...

I'm not an instructor, but I would say that a "simple", "comfortable" stance that is "repeatable" is the most important factor. But I also believe things other than physical posture are responsible in addition, to achieving this goal.

My problem is since I play infrequently I let my pea brain mental game interfere with my physical game.

This game IMO is so sensitive, and susceptible to any tiny variation, be it mental or physical, it's like a house of cards. If any one thing is in question, all the others are at risk.
 
luckwouldhaveit said:
This is a very simple 2 question challenge to the stroke instructors out there.

1) What is proper alignment? In terms of the plane your body/arms make with the ball and what direction the cue should be pointing in.


Proper alignment is when "Perception is Reality" Always ask youself this question: Is my cue stick pointing at my target?2)

What do you think is the most important (stroke) factor in controlling the cue ball? Assume an accurate delivery of the cue.
Click to expand...

Understanding A.S.S.
The only three things that we can control: ANGLE-SPEED-SPIN.randyg
 
3andstop said:
I'm not an instructor, but I would say that a "simple", "comfortable" stance that is "repeatable" is the most important factor. Yes, but you left one thing out: It has to work. You can have all of the above and miss frequently. You don't want that, obviously.


But I also believe things other than physical posture are responsible in addition, to achieving this goal. You couldn't be more right about that. Pool imitates life. Your personality traits will come out in your game, good and bad.



My problem is since I play infrequently I let my pea brain mental game interfere with my physical game. We all do that, even the pros do it. Only difference is that they trained themselves to do it less often.



This game IMO is so sensitive, and susceptible to any tiny variation, be it mental or physical, it's like a house of cards. If any one thing is in question, all the others are at risk.Truer words were never spoken. You have to watch out for compensations that will tend to creep into your fundamentals when things start to go wrong. Then before you know it, you find yourself in a full-blown slump. (Not you personally.)
Click to expand...
 
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To clarify, what I'm looking for on the alignment question is something along these lines..

If the body is here, shoulder is there, elbow is there, and hand is there - is that alignment in line with the shot?
 
One size does not fit all. I think to teach a new player one basic stance is good, but then let them adjusted to their comfort (with in reason) as they advance in their game. Johnnyt
 
FranCrimi said:
What's your opinion?
Click to expand...

After others have given their opinions, I'll state mine and include an explanation of the physiology and try to have some pictures ready.

For the sake of discussion, let's ignore the lower body alignment and just focus on the plane of the stroke. Let's also assume the person has an average male build and circle back to different builds later in the discussion.
 
randyg said:
Proper alignment is when "Perception is Reality" Always ask youself this question: Is my cue stick pointing at my target?
Click to expand...


My question is: Is my alignment in line with the intended path of the cue stick? In other words, does my alignment naturally lend itself to straight stroking.
 
luckwouldhaveit said:
Right so my challenge to anyone teaching stroke fundamentals is to simply describe what kind of alignment they teach. How do you recommend aligning the arms, etc in relation to the path of the stick?

Any takers?
Click to expand...

I utilize a method that uses the point of the elbow as a reference point. When the arm is in position, there is a relationship between the shoulder, the point of the elbow and the grip points. All of these factors work together to keep the cue in proper alignment as it moves during the shot. If these points are not in proper alignment, accuracy is affected.

That is not a complete description of the method I teach, it's just my short 1 paragraph answer for pool forums - condensed due to time limitations.
 
Strokes may be differ.
For example:
Keith McCready
Bustamante

What they are able to do:
Identify the centre of the cue ball
Stroke the cue through the vertical centre axis of the cue ball
Adjust, if required, to execute the desired shot.

Whatever the position your arms, hands, shoulders, trunk, head, legs or feet at the moment of contact is irrelevant, provided you can consistently repeat.

If you look at all those Warren Miller ski movies over the years, you will see all sorts of 'sking technique' related to pole plants, shoulders, knees,hips etc, according to the prescribed tinkering by the various authorities on ski technique, some quite nationalistic. Funny thing - what stays the same is the what the ski is doing in relation to the snow. Because that is the only way it works.

What stays the same in a reliable stroke is what the cue is doing in relation to the cue ball at the time of contact. :D

Stroke Technique - be it the snooker stance advocated by the likes of Steve Davis, or the pool stance advocated by the proponents of SPF - are attempts to teach the repeatable stroke by simplifying the action, and eliminating the individualism demonstrated by McCready and Bustamante. Trying to create imitators of their strokes would be a nightmare.

To answer your questions:

1) What is proper alignment? In terms of the plane your body/arms make with the ball and what direction the cue should be pointing in.

What works for you :D

2) What do you think is the most important (stroke) factor in controlling the cue ball? Assume an accurate delivery of the cue.

The brain :D - If you have accurate delivery of the cue, I asume all aspects are accurate, including the speed. So the real question is: can you choose the best shot in the circumstances? :D

I shall now return to my mountain top where I can look down on AZB, removed from the petty squabbling over non-issues.
 
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luckwouldhaveit said:
To clarify, what I'm looking for on the alignment question is something along these lines..

If the body is here, shoulder is there, elbow is there, and hand is there - is that alignment in line with the shot?
Click to expand...

You go first. After all, you started the thread. It's only fair, right?
 
luckwouldhaveit said:
I'll reserve that for another thread. For now the window's open here.

@blackjack even if you have a mountain of text, I'd be happy to read it.
Click to expand...

I'm sorry. I don't understand what you mean by your response. I think it means that you want to go last. So, you're asking people who teach to share their knowledge here for free, and then you will evaluate it?
 
the best aiming system out there....

try this.....

BEST EVER INVENTED

It works for every shot, no matter if its a cut shot, bank shot, or kick shot.

Don't get me wrong, it won't work for EVERY person. If that one don't work,THIS ONE will.
 
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When looking at the best alignment for delivering the cue straight, snooker fundamentals are worth investigating.

For many years the snooker player generally regarded as having the best fundamentals was Steve Davis. He advocated making sure that the shot line was in the plane that contains the shoulder, elbow and wrist; also that this plane should be vertical.

In other words, get your shoulder and elbow directly above the cue.

However I believe that Davis now admits that he was wrong and that this is not strictly necessary. At the risk of misrepresenting him, I think that his change of heart was prompted by watching a number of pro snooker players over recent years who cue VERY straight but do not have an alignment anything like what he had been recommending. Mark Williams & Jamie Cope come to mind.

I suspect that Davis' original ideas came from some very common but simplistic ideas around physiology, in particular about the working of the elbow joint.

To illustrate this, rest your 'cuing' elbow on the table in front of you with your arm pointing straight up. Now if you assume that the elbow joint only allows the arm to move directly away from you or towards you, then the shot-line-in-plane idea does make sense.

But in fact your elbow does not work like that. It allows a much greater range of movement - try holding your upper arm still with your bridge hand and see how much you can move your lower arm from side to side as if you were arm wrestling. And this extra degree of freedom results in there being more than one possible alignment capable of delivering the cue in a straight line.

However, the bit about the line from elbow to grip being vertical probably is sound. This is because experience shows that where there is deviation of the cue movement from the pure piston motion should be kept to the vertical plane.

An exercise that I have found helpful in fine-tuning my alignment is to spend a few minutes cuing one handed (this does not need to be on a billiard table - any table will do). Just let the cue run along the flat surface and see where it wants to go. Adjust your alignment accordingly.
 
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