Tips for Students of CTE

Murdoch7627 said:
Tap, Tap, Tap.

He is indeed a thief. I hope anyone considering buying any of his DVDs will consider his "total lack of professional etiquette" and decide not to purchase anything from such a low life person. He knew damn well that he was hurting Stan's sales. If not, then he must be the biggest moron on the planet.
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If you do a search the "partners in crime" did the same thing to geno and perfect aim. It wasn't the first time and I'm sure it won't be the last.
 
Naysayser ship has sunk and all the rats are abandoning the ship.

Patrick Johnson said:
Complete bullshit. You're just piling on because Dr. Dave speaks reason to your CTE cult and you're all allergic to that. What you're trying to do is more shameful than what you accuse him of.

You show typical CTE wonk intelligence by following Dave Segal's low-class lead. He's always had a hardon where he needed brains, and it didn't get any better since he bragged himself into a corner with promises of a mathematical "proof" (LOL) when all he's really capable of producing is vanity videos.

If Stan's system doesn't do well it won't be because of anything Dr. Dave or anybody else with an actual head on his shoulders said or did - it'll be because CTE is associated with losers like you guys.

Or is it loosers?

pj
chgo
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You're the one who is wrong Patrick. Murdoch is RIGHT! Dr. Dave did post Stan's material on his website WITHOUT PERMISSION.

Only a moron would think otherwise or is that a maroon?

This thread is supposed to be about Tips for Students of CTE, go find another ship to float your arrogance.

JoeyA
 
Slide Rule said:
It seems as if there is a second Professor on the CTE thread. Professor PJ and now Professor Long.
Making homework assignments, indicates a lack of interest and of sending someone productive on a useless errand.
One Professor on the CTE threads is sufficient. Otherwise contribute.
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And just what have you contributed? If you really knew so much about CTE you would have explained it all to everyone's satisfaction by now.

Roger
 
SpiderWebComm said:
You should contribute something instead of playing forum cop.

You're wrong ... there HAVE been original thoughts and concepts on this forum. One of which was Dr. Dave's "V" technique for figuring 30deg angles. Nobody ever thought of that before b/c it's ridiculous.

Secondly, Dr. Dave posted info from Stan's DvD - not from another site with copied info. That info was STAN'S - not Dr. Dave's.

If some else is thinking about putting out an instructional DVD.....DON'T DO IT!!!!!!!!! Dr. Dave will post your info on his site, without permission, and make it harder to sell DVDs.



Sent from my SPH-M910 using Tapatalk
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This right here is some very hard evidence that what I earlier said about CTE's controversial side being all about marketing, is true: Who's going to get credit for its invention? Who's going to be approved to teach it for money? Who's going to have the right to market its information in DVD's?

And I think new readers to these CTE threads have a right to be made aware of this truth. If you call that playing "forum cop," then so be it. I'll just call it my free contribution.

Sell on, marketeers.

Roger
 
AtLarge said:
It might be nice to have one thread where we could exchange tips about aiming with CTE -- things we have learned that might help someone else learn more easily or quickly.

I ask that this thread be limited to talking about Stan Shuffett's version of CTE -- not earlier versions or someone's hybridization.

I also plea that everyone leave all contentious debate out of this thread. Let's just accept that "it works" in some fashion, whether that is with mechanical precision or through conscious or unconscious user adjustments. Some people are over-the-top advocates, some think it's an absurd way to try to hit a pool shot, and others are somewhere in between -- let's just accept all that. I'll also be disappointed if anyone tries to use this thread as a platform for ill-mannered attempts at humor, such as "Tip: use ghost-ball aiming instead."

I hope that we all have reached a stage now where a thread like this is possible. I'll start it out.

Tip -- Buy Stan's DVD.
I have been amazed at how many people seem to be sincerely interested in CTE, and in aiming methods more generally, but have not spent a measly $45 (and that is pretty measly in this day and age) to hear and see what Stan presents first hand. The on-line outlines, summaries, and discussion can be useful, but they don't adequately substitute for the DVD.

I was a student of CTE long before the DVD came out, and what was available was pretty poor. A lot of people who tried to learn it from Hal Houle were left mystified or deemed it geometrically flawed and unworkable. Hal's instructions, at least to many people, were simply: sight center to edge, offset the stick inside or outside depending on thickness of cut needed, and pivot to center. That simple prescription is full of holes, and many of us were unable to add enough meat to the bones to make it into a usable method.

Stan was one of those students who went to see Hal. But Stan was intrigued enough to stick with it until he was able to give it some structure and make it a much more usable method. Stan's specification of secondary sighting lines and specific pivot lengths (for manual CTE) elevates the method to something that is now useful to many more people.

The DVD has high production qualities (for a pool DVD). Some viewers wish he had explained some things more fully or differently, but, overall, it is reasonably well done. I urge those interested in CTE, or aiming methods more generally, to buy it.​

Tip -- Use Streamlined Shot "Call-Outs"
Stan's method essentially presents the player with a menu of ways to align oneself -- or determine the final cue-stick alignment -- for a shot. Some students have expressed confusion, difficulty, or dismay in trying to keep the options straight as the shots present themselves during a game or match. When I use the method, I find it helpful to streamline that menu in my mind, in the following ways.

The center-to-edge line always goes to the outside (side farther from the pocket) of the object ball, and I doubt that anyone has any difficulty in immediately seeing that. Stan then uses A, B, and C for the secondary alignment lines, and left and right for the pivots. My mental way of implementing this makes two changes in terminology:

Instead of thinking of A, B, or C, I find it easier in actual play to just think "1" or "2," where this means 1 or 2 quarters of the OB. So "A" and "C" are both "1" (one quarter) and "B" is "2" (two quarters). Since the side for the CTEL is instantly obvious on a shot, I just think whether to align for 1 vs. 2 quarters for the secondary alignment (forget the very thin cuts for now).

Instead of thinking "left" or "right" for the 1/2-tip offset for the pivot, which have different effects depending on the direction of the cut, I just think "out" or "in," where "out" means outside and "in" means inside.

So as I approach a shot, I call out (to myself) either "1-out," or "1-in," or "2-out," or "2-in" depending on the shot.

This can be done very quickly. In fact, I find that I can make an alignment-menu selection and align myself for the shot, including pivot, almost as quickly as I can go around the table one-stroking using only "feel." And the process can certainly be done at least as quickly as ghost-ball or contact-point-to-contact-point aiming. For precision, it is probably good to not do it that quickly, but I just mention this because of objections sometimes made about CTE possibly disrupting one's "flow" or pace of play.

So ............ as I move to each shot, I just call out to myself one of:
1-out
1-in
2-out
2-in​

and then go into aligning my body for CTEL plus the call-out. I hope someone finds this tip useful. If you need any further clarification, please just ask.​

Now -- how about some tips from other users.
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"...Thanks for starting this thread. I appreciate very much what you had to say in your initial post. "

Stan
------------------------------------------------------------------------

How soon we forget or never read?:confused:
 
AtLarge said:
Dr. Dave was criticized, unjustly to my mind, more than two months ago for posting his brief summary of Stan's CTE method.

I would ask anyone who wasn't following the CTE threads at that time, and anyone who may have forgotten that discussion, to read the following two posts:

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Some people don't like links, so I've quoted all of the posts below. I think they put things in perspective fairly well.

Thanks,
Dave

from AlLarge from here:
Dr. Dave posted about 8 sentences plus a small table. Do you really think this is the "complete content" of the DVD? If it were, then the DVD would be a total rip-off, because Stan could have given all of us his complete lesson in an equivalently brief written post on AzB.

But I don't believe that Stan's DVD is a rip-off. Nor do I believe that Dr. Dave's write-up now makes the DVD superfluous. The DVD is an hour and a half of verbal and visual material, not just 8 written sentences plus a table.

In the time since Stan's DVD was released, far more has been written about it than Dr. Dave wrote. You, Spidey, have personally written a lot more than Dr. Dave. Here's just one of your posts that gives a good amount of detail about the method: http://forums.azbilliards.com/showpost.php?p=2833281&postcount=200. And you have answered many questions with specifics on how to apply the method. Many other people also have contributed to the effort to try to unravel some of the mysteries of the method.

So I think nasty name-calling on this isn't really appropriate.
​

From SpiderWebComm from here:
LEFT CUTS:

Aim point A: Thick cut angles
Aim point B: Thin cut angles
Aim point 1/8: VERY thin cut angles

RIGHT CUTS:

Aim point C: Thick cut angles
Aim point B: Thin cut angles
Aim point 1/8: VERY thin cut angles

So, in a GENERAL rule of thumb (this is a variable that is affected by playing conditions, speed, etc), if it's less than a 1/2 ball cut -- it's thick. If it's more than a 1/2 ball cut, it's thin. The direction of the pivot also can affect this based on the playing conditions. Meaning, for a thick left cut that's near borderline... it might be edge to A (left pivot) or edge to B (right pivot). There were some shots that were listed as (not obvious pivots). MOST shots are totally obvious. Some borderline shots are not. One direction will look perfect -- the other not close.

People always ask "Well, how do you KNOW?" Easy--- setup and pivot in one direction. If it's not right, the other way will work. Just reset. It will not take a LONG time to just KNOW. FAR less time than hitting a million balls. I'd guess less than 1000 and you'll be tuned in. So, when someone says, "Well gee whiz--- this take PRACTICE and if you're gonna PRACTICE why not just use ghost ball?" Well... because it doesn't take 20 years of practice - maybe just a few months to perfect--- that's why.

Dave

p.s. Order from thickest to thinnest:

LEFT:

A: right pivot
A: left pivot
B: right pivot
B: left pivot
1/8: right pivot
1/8: left pivot

RIGHT:

C: left pivot
C: right pivot
B: left pivot
B: right pivot
1/8: left pivot
1/8: right pivot

Right off the bat you should be able to eliminate 1/2 of these for 90% of all shots just based on looking at the shot. An experienced pool player should be able to see if it's an A, B or C alignment and just think is this a L/R pivot? As you progress, you'll always pivot from the same side and just make an alignment adjustment (or cue angle adjustment) to compensate. Cue angle adjustment meaning, if it's a right pivot...pivot beyond center to the left pivot starting position. Notice the angle of attack for your cue. Whenever you need a right pivot, start from this cue angle and back-pivot to center :) Left handers, do the opposite.

Pros who pivot-- never pivot from the unnatural side. That's why Bustamante is always starts at the left CB edge for each shot. You'll never see him on the right edge of the CB as a starting point.
​

from dr_dave from here:
Atlarge,

Thank you for your post. I also want to thank others for their supportive posts, PMS, and e-mails.

I agree with Atlarge's appraisal. The brief description on my website summarizing Stan's version of CTE (which is the basis for Pro One), does not diminish the value of Stan's DVD. If anything, as I've pointed out before, I think it adds value. It provides a concise summary for people to use as a reference after they view the DVD. IMO, the DVD is not very "informational" ... it is more "demonstrational." In fact, it was very difficult for me to figure out the "information" from the DVD. I had to view it several times, taking notes and making drawings for all of the examples to figure out the pattern. That's why I think I have "added value" to the DVD.

IMO, the real value of the DVD is in the audio/visual explanations, illustrations, demonstrations, and examples.

I thought the purpose for this thread was to discuss and ask questions about CTE/Pro-One to develop a better understanding of the approach and how it is applied. How can this be done if people don't have a basic definition of the method? I think the brief summary on my website (and in this thread) does a reasonable job of explaining Stan's version of CTE, along with several other versions that have been proposed in the past. If somebody wants to learn more about Stan's version, see demonstrations by good shooters, see lots of examples, and learn how to set up these examples on their own table, they will want to purchase Stan's DVD.

I'm sorry Spidey and Joey think I have somehow been professionally irresponsible. Obviously, I strongly disagree.

Regards,
Dave​
 
That post was made long after you had already ripped that information from Stan's DVD and posted to your site. My post was in response to someone asking the progression of cut angles.

So, that's like you saying, "SEE?!? Spidey posted the information!!! SEE!!"

When, in fact, you had posted that information LONG before I made that post.

You can strongly disagree all you'd like---- it is what it is. You extrapolated Stan's content and posted everything to your site less than a month after he released his DVD.

You might call it "research"--- but everyone else calls it thievery.

Genie was already out of the bottle for a while. Sorry, Doc.
 
SpiderWebComm said:
That post was made long after you had already ripped that information from Stan's DVD and posted to your site. My post was in response to someone asking the progression of cut angles.

So, that's like you saying, "SEE?!? Spidey posted the information!!! SEE!!"

When, in fact, you had posted that information LONG before I made that post.

You can strongly disagree all you'd like---- it is what it is. You extrapolated Stan's content and posted everything to your site less than a month after he released his DVD.

You might call it "research"--- but everyone else calls it thievery.

Genie was already out of the bottle for a while. Sorry, Doc.
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Spidey,

This is untrue. You are mistaken.

You posted your interpretation of Stan's information on 1/27/2011 here.

I didn't publish my interpretation of Stan's approach on my website or on AZB until 2/17/2001, per the message here.

Regards,
Dave
 
dr_dave said:
Spidey,

This is untrue. You are mistaken.

You posted your interpretation of Stan's information on 1/27/2011 here.

I didn't publish my interpretation of Stan's approach on my website or on AZB until 2/17/2001, per the message here.

Regards,
Dave
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Um, not quite. Nice try. Maybe Stan should chime in and clear things up. Stan and I collaborated on the post you quoted above. That was made AFTER you posted his content to your personal site.

Maybe you should call Stan on the phone and see what he has to say about it.... especially about who posted info to the internet (not AZ) FIRST.

Dave
 
Questions about when to switch between A/B/C or when to use L/R pivot are frequently asked. That is because they are not completely spelled out on the DVD. I had these questions myself after watching it. You gain this knowledge by practicing the shots. Spidey's info was very helpful to explain it further. The information given is purely additive to what is on the DVD. I also made practice charts for many of the shots on the DVD with Stan's approval.

I don't think it's a problem to summarize someone's system if you get permission from them first. I'm sure Stan put a lot of hard work into the system he teaches, and people should be respectful of that. It's like me making a DVD how to make thanksgiving dinner my way, and a "helpful" person summarizes the recipes on the internet.
 
mohrt said:
Questions about when to switch between A/B/C or when to use L/R pivot are frequently asked. That is because they are not completely spelled out on the DVD. I had these questions myself after watching it. You gain this knowledge by practicing the shots. Spidey's info was very helpful to explain it further. The information given is purely additive to what is on the DVD. I also made practice charts for many of the shots on the DVD with Stan's approval.

I don't think it's a problem to summarize someone's system if you get permission from them first. I'm sure Stan put a lot of hard work into the system he teaches, and people should be respectful of that. It's like me making a DVD how to make thanksgiving dinner my way, and a "helpful" person summarizes the recipes on the internet.
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Well said. Exactly my point. Dr. Dave never asked nor received permission to post the info to his site. Once he posted all of the details to his personal site (WHICH WAS NOT AFTER I MADE THAT POST), then the genie was out and about.

Don't take my word for it. Anyone having any doubts on the real timeline can simply call Stan and ask who posted what and when.
 
mohrt said:
Questions about when to switch between A/B/C or when to use L/R pivot are frequently asked. That is because they are not completely spelled out on the DVD. I had these questions myself after watching it. You gain this knowledge by practicing the shots. Spidey's info was very helpful to explain it further. The information given is purely additive to what is on the DVD. I also made practice charts for many of the shots on the DVD with Stan's approval.

I don't think it's a problem to summarize someone's system if you get permission from them first. I'm sure Stan put a lot of hard work into the system he teaches, and people should be respectful of that. It's like me making a DVD how to make thanksgiving dinner my way, and a "helpful" person summarizes the recipes on the internet.
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Spot on post mohrt. +1
 
SpiderWebComm said:
You should contribute something instead of playing forum cop.

You're wrong ... there HAVE been original thoughts and concepts on this forum. One of which was Dr. Dave's "V" technique for figuring 30deg angles. Nobody ever thought of that before b/c it's ridiculous.

Secondly, Dr. Dave posted info from Stan's DvD - not from another site with copied info. That info was STAN'S - not Dr. Dave's.

If some else is thinking about putting out an instructional DVD.....DON'T DO IT!!!!!!!!! Dr. Dave will post your info on his site, without permission, and make it harder to sell DVDs.
Click to expand...

You should be a judge, so then the highly complex field of copyrights and trademarks could finally be adequately solved into finite distinctions.

What is and what isn't 'original' tends to be based on just how far one goes back, and what one treats as the base assumptions. That's why that field of legal theory is so complicated.

If you want to have a legal discussion, then make a new thread. This thread is about CTE, and naturally, that's going to involve a considerable amount of information available in the DVD as part of the conversation. The second that DVD was created, that was going to be unavoidable.

I think the DVD was well done, and even people who decide against strict CTE would get benefit from it, due to the high presentation quality. However, I do call on some common sense and civility, once again, in the conversation of the topic.

mohrt said:
Questions about when to switch between A/B/C or when to use L/R pivot are frequently asked. That is because they are not completely spelled out on the DVD. I had these questions myself after watching it. You gain this knowledge by practicing the shots.
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That's the key point, and why the DVD has remarkable value: it's made to be used at the table. Considerable effort went into that aspect, and it shows. It is created from the ground up so that the user can easily and accurately replicate the sample shots on their table. That's the value it has over a simple text summary. Anyone that seriously thinks a text summary replaces that DVD is being disrespectful to the DVD and the effort that went into it.
 
B. P. O. & a. P. O.

dr_dave said:
I'm sorry Spidey and Joey think I have somehow been professionally irresponsible. Obviously, I strongly disagree.

Regards,
Dave[/INDENT]
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I'm sorry that you didn't ask Stan for permission to post ANY of his material concerning CTE/Pro One which in my opinion is the BENCHMARK for any center to edge discussion. While you may feel you have the right to copy his material and discuss it in any way that might be of benefit to you you, I still think you should have asked his permission. That's just what I would have done...... I guess I know how much work Stan put into developing the video CTE/Pro One and I wouldn't put anything on my website without his express permission. But that's just me.....

The truth is that all of the gobbly-gook about CTE that you have collected over the years makes your website look a bit silly, imo.

There is a dividing line now and it is B.P.O and A.P.O. The most ACCURATE AND CURRENT information about this METHOD OF AIMING is "AFTER PRO ONE". Everything "Before Pro One" seems convoluted and amibguous.

Anyway, all that being said, your website and your involvement on AZB Main forum is a valuable asset.

Anyone wanting to learn anything about CTE should simply forget about all of that other contradictory information and get the video by Stan Shuffett which can be accessed by clicking here.

I don't have the link right now but one of our posters compiled a DETAILED sheet which gave the aiming coordinates on many of the shots detailed in the video. This is a very nice tool and "tip" for CTE/Pro One Users to go along with the video. Maybe someone will give credit to the person who created the document and post it here as well.

JoeyA
 
dr_dave said:
Spidey,

This is untrue. You are mistaken.

You posted your interpretation of Stan's information on 1/27/2011 here.

I didn't publish my interpretation of Stan's approach on my website or on AZB until 2/17/2001, per the message here.

Regards,
Dave
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Your summary is neither concise nor complete!! In fact you have so much misleading information
that it would be hard for someone to even fathom of learning CTE/Pro-One from this website!!
 
Seriously guys, take the name calling/finger pointing/"you did this, no I didn't", somewhere else. There are actually people who'd like to learn/improve their skills here. And this behavior is counter productive to learning.
 
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