What if mosconi's high run was broken?

But out of respect for Willie, why would anyone want to do it officially?
Some things are just better off left unsaid and the same might be said of deeds undone.

Why would Barry Bonds WANT to break Hank Aaron's home-run record (and on 'roids no less :angry:). I'll tell you why, for the GLORY and RECOGNITION of the feat. His name will remain in the MLB record books for YEARS to come. Can anyone here say E-G-O ???

I've never actually seen a poolplayer with an inflated ego ;), have you???

Maniac
 
I know that records are meant to be broken.
I was just musing is all.
If someone were to break his record officially on the proper equipment,
then good for them. Willie would smile.
 
lmfao at ESPN mentioning it, a grade school spelling bee champion has a better chance

it's an EXHIBITION record for crying our loud and way overated
 
lmfao at ESPN mentioning it, a grade school spelling bee champion has a better chance

it's an EXHIBITION record for crying our loud and way overated

Overrated?? Have you ever played 14.1?? Why don't you try it sometime? And when you can't get past the 2nd rack maybe then you'll appreciate the feat that it is.

Everyone makes such a big deal over someone stringing an 8 or 10 pack in 9-ball, but I GUARANTEE you it's MUCH harder to run 526 balls in 14.1. That's 35 racks! So that's roughly the equivalent of a 35-pack in 9-ball.

and on "non championship" level equipment to boot

Granted it was on 4 7/8" pockets, but that was championship equipment AT THAT TIME. But I do agree that if someone were to attempt to break the record that in all fairness it should be on the same equipment and conditions that Mosconi did it on. Even still... it's no easy task - or it wouldn't have stood for nearly 60 years.
 
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To clarify a couple of misstatements made in this thread:

Neither 4 7/8" pockets, nor 8 foot tables were "championship" equipment at the time of the record. Mosconi was doing an exhibition in Springfield, OH; and that's just the table they had.

He did NOT quit, he DID miss. The confusion arises because in his old age he is caught on film at least 2 times saying he just quit and didn't miss (I've seen at least 2 of these videos) - he was either confused (fairly old) or fabricating. All witnesses to the record report he missed at the end.

Mike Sigel is medium to slow in his play. Mosconi was super-fast...probably only Lou Butera has played as fast as Willie at such a high level. John Schmidt is very close to this speed.
 
Mosconi Really was great

I believe Greenleaf had a similar string of success in world championship play...he dominated from 1919 to 1933 or so losing just once I think in 1925.

Found this on Dyers website Untold Stories

I recently posed this question to historian Charlie Ursitti: which player really was best. Charlie is an expert in the field, having recently created a website with more than a century of pool statistics. He is a man of strongly held opinions when it comes to pool. Charlie’s answer to me was emphatic. Without a doubt, he said, Mosconi was the superior player. Charlie says this is not simply his opinion, but rather the indisputable conclusion one must draw from examining the facts.

“I statistically proved that Willie was better,” said Ursitti, recalling to me an analysis he conducted some 20 years ago. “He (Mosconi) won 76.3 percent of the games and Greenleaf won 70 percent of his games.” Charlie said these numbers, first published in an article for The National Billiard News, did not sit well with Greenleaf's fans. “I got more hate mail than anybody had in 10 years. They’d say: ‘you don’t know, you never saw Greenleaf play.’ I said both of them played in competition, I never saw them (play against each other) — all I did was present the numbers. And the numbers don’t lie.”

As for Walter Lindrum he was playing English billiards. Totally different discipline like comparing apples and apple pie. 4 balls no clusters and a dizzying array of ways to score.
 
Found this on Dyers website Untold Stories

I recently posed this question to historian Charlie Ursitti: which player really was best. Charlie is an expert in the field, having recently created a website with more than a century of pool statistics. He is a man of strongly held opinions when it comes to pool. Charlie’s answer to me was emphatic. Without a doubt, he said, Mosconi was the superior player. Charlie says this is not simply his opinion, but rather the indisputable conclusion one must draw from examining the facts.

“I statistically proved that Willie was better,” said Ursitti, recalling to me an analysis he conducted some 20 years ago. “He (Mosconi) won 76.3 percent of the games and Greenleaf won 70 percent of his games.” Charlie said these numbers, first published in an article for The National Billiard News, did not sit well with Greenleaf's fans. “I got more hate mail than anybody had in 10 years. They’d say: ‘you don’t know, you never saw Greenleaf play.’ I said both of them played in competition, I never saw them (play against each other) — all I did was present the numbers. And the numbers don’t lie.”

As for Walter Lindrum he was playing English billiards. Totally different discipline like comparing apples and apple pie. 4 balls no clusters and a dizzying array of ways to score.


I don't know who was the better player between the two but I don't feel that those numbers can prove who was better. For example, if we go by the numbers in tennis then Steffi Graff would be clearly better than any woman playing today. However, how many people would honestly bet on Steffi if she were to play (in her prime) Serena Williams or Maria Sharapova? Very few if any.
 
People attach more importance to this record than it deserves and I think Mosconi would be the first to agree.

For all practical purposes the record has already been broken - by Mike Eufemia, Babe Cranfield and maybe others. Others have made runs that could be considered more difficult than Mosconi's - Engert's 491 on a 9 foot, for example.

What does this prove? It certainly proves that they were or are outstanding straight pool players. It does not prove that they were better than Mosconi. Eufemia and Cranfield, for example, played in some tournaments with Mosconi and they weren't much competition for him.

Consider also that Mosconi probably had many hundreds of unfinished 125 ball or higher runs in exhibitions. He probably could have had thousands if he played for recreation but, as is well known, he didn't play for recreation. As I understand it, Eufemia played by himself every day trying to set a new record. Mosconi certainly did not. I'm not sure what possessed him to keep playing that day in Springfield, Ohio, but that was not his usual practice. He usually wanted to get on to the trick shots and then to dinner.

I'm also sure that if straight pool had remained the tournament game, somebody would have beaten the record by now. Efren? Darren Appleton? John Schmidt? Who knows? Appleton ran 183 at this years Derby and he practically never plays the game. Neither do Schmidt and Efren. Straight pool doesn't put money in their pockets so why should they bother? I can guarantee that Mosconi never played rotation games at the level that these guys do. Why should he have? Back then rotation games weren't going to put money in his pocket.

In a way, I cringe that someday the record will be broken and that person will become known as "the greatest straight pool player of all time". Mosconi would turn over in his grave.
 
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tennis analogy

I don't know who was the better player between the two but I don't feel that those numbers can prove who was better. For example, if we go by the numbers in tennis then Steffi Graff would be clearly better than any woman playing today. However, how many people would honestly bet on Steffi if she were to play (in her prime) Serena Williams or Maria Sharapova? Very few if any.

Clearly we can never truly know who was better though the available statistics do lean. even High grand averages Greenleaf 11.02 Mosconi 18.34.
But I totally agree their are intangibles for instance personal feelings Greenleaf seems to be the only player who intimidated Mosconi. By mosconi's own statement that on their exhibition tour Greeleaf won 57 to 50. Check this out its cool I found it on the Billiard digest site.
Chart.jpg

The tennis analogy is a little thin though cause sports science has totally changed changed tennis and only slightly adjusted pool. I doubt Graff ever squatted her weight or ran sprints like the current champs.
 
Ralph Greenleaf

Set up a 4x8 table with standard pockets and let the Champs go at it...

The record of 526 balls pocketed was accomplished on that equipment I believe...

No negativity intended here, just fairness and keeping things equal for the one attempting to break the record...

Mr. J.

Had runs over 1300, 1200 and 900 balls and he is or was considered the best of all time. And as a matter of fact tought Willie how it was to be done. Did pretty well.
Nick :)
 
Would the person who broke the record become synonymous with the outside billiard world? Or would they remain known only to the hardcore billiards community?

The question you are asking is not about the player, but about pool's profile. So the answer is NO, that player would not be known outside the pool world.
 
One important thing has not been mentioned in the Mosconi/Greenleaf debate. Safety play. Who would beat who to the shot first. Very important in straight pool. I once had an old time contemporary of Mosconi and Greenleaf tell me that Greenleaf didn't play that much better then the others when it came to running balls but that he was a much better safety player then anyone and would almost consistently beat them to the shot.
This is from a man that beat Mosconi 1 game out of 3 but never played Greenleaf but saw him play many times.He thought Greenleaf was the better overall player.
 
Clearly we can never truly know who was better though the available statistics do lean. even High grand averages Greenleaf 11.02 Mosconi 18.34.
But I totally agree their are intangibles for instance personal feelings Greenleaf seems to be the only player who intimidated Mosconi. By mosconi's own statement that on their exhibition tour Greeleaf won 57 to 50. Check this out its cool I found it on the Billiard digest site.
Chart.jpg

The tennis analogy is a little thin though cause sports science has totally changed changed tennis and only slightly adjusted pool. I doubt Graff ever squatted her weight or ran sprints like the current champs.

309 on a 5x10 is pretty sick.
 
Anyone know what Frank "sailor" stellman's high run is? He hints it well over 500 but won’t tell. I'm guessing because it's not witnessed.
 
Mosconi

I wonder if any of these posters that say Mosconi was a super fast player ever saw him in person. I did, because I shot him in an exhibition match, 14.1 to 125, at the Billiard Tavern in San Diego at 12th and Broadway in 1968. He was not a super fast player, maybe just a tad faster than average, and he did not have to walk around the table much at all, he knew all the shots. This was a dream come true for me because he was an idol of mine since I was a teenager.

And all his shots were dead center of the pockets, he did not slide any balls.
 
Average people would still be clueless.
That doesn't take away from the achievement that is Mosconi. Second in his first world championship by one ball one game. 15 world championships almost consecutive with a few seconds sprinkled in and his high run. You all know all this if you don't check out The Hustler and the Champ its a good read. Or look at the BCA Rule book in the back there is a section for records. Mosconi's name is in there a whole lot.

Also here are a few videos from Freddy "the Beard" Bentivegna's site

Mosconi interview part 1

Mosconi interview part 2

Irving crane in his HOF interview with Luby says he once asked Mosconi for advice on his game. Mosconi looked at him and said "Don't Miss..." and walked away.
:thumbup2:
Great interview , I'd like to see more, he was before my time , Mosconi had a great personality.
 
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