Stroke Instructor Challenge

[Roger Long]

So to get this straight, you all teach the same thing, which is natural alignment as I've described it, and the alignment you teach is to NOT have all the key stroke points on the same plane?

luckwouldhaveit:

When I said that I haven't been able to shoot with everything aligned all in one plane but instead have adopted the same little elbow tuck that you presented through pictures of a few top players, I wasn't meaning to say that either way is right or wrong. Just because those few players use the elbow tuck doesn't mean it has been established as "natural" alignment. If you look at the pictures of Mitch Ellerman in today's news article on AZB, I think you will see that he is aligned all in one plane. And if you look up some pictures of SVB, I think you'll see the same thing. So are these two excellent players aligning naturally; or are they aligning unnaturally?

As I have already confessed, I teach the all-in-one-plane mechanics because I think that is a good starting point for almost all players. Then from that starting point I allow my students to experiment and find whatever feels most natural to them. The only important thing is that they develop something that works consistently for them.

I hope this helps.

Roger

 

[Scott Lee]

Roger...Tap, tap, tap. I teach "natural" pool as well. Your last sentence says it all! :thumbup:

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

As I have already confessed, I teach the all-in-one-plane mechanics because I think that is a good starting point for almost all players. Then from that starting point I allow my students to experiment and find whatever feels most natural to them. The only important thing is that they develop something that works consistently for them.

Roger

 

[luckwouldhaveit]

@Roger - I know - and you (and Fran) have been very objective and open-minded in this discussion. Mitch Ellerman and SVB both have "natural" alignment, though Shane's arm does kick out on his final stroke.

Anyways you raise a good point - should a player change the way their body naturally aligns on a shot? Natural in the sense that it's their natural tendency to align that way, not the natural alignment I've described. So in a way, what I'm describing could be considered "unnatural" for that person.

My opinion is that at the end of the day, the player just needs a repeatable stroke. But I also think "natural alignment" is easier to repeat. A player that goes in specifically for stroke lessons probably doesn't feel like what he has is working out for him.

If the player isn't able to deliver the cueball where he wants it, then he has a problem with either his perception (dominant eye) or his stroke accuracy. And for those players that are perceiving correctly, but can't deliver the cue ball accurately, it comes down to 2 options:
1) Work with what you have
2) Change it

I think the latter can find what they're looking for in "natural alignment", or for the semantically-challenged, the line 1 and 2 relationship.

 

[Wolven]

I have been experimenting with various alignments and in the last 2 weeks I have realigned myself out of a stroke.
After taking a few days off to forget everything I ‘learned’, I was able to align myself same way as the pictures of the pros at the start of this thread and my stroke returned to normal.

I spent a lot of time thinking why it works for me and why the pros tend to have the relationship 1 and 2.
I spent an hour talking with Geno about aim.
And also got a lot of useful tips on the stroke from luckwouldhave.
Thanks to both of them..

I now have figured out why the pros setup this way.
I can show and isolate various steps to achieve the setup. Explain differences in feel and go through cause and effect of various elements.
I can create a repeatable process applicable to more than 50% of players out there.

As an experiment, I showed my findings last night to a weaker player.
He was not at a level where change could be implemented right away.
We went through bunch of other fundamentals first.
Once that was accomplished, we went through the process and he saw and felt the differences in body positioning (angle to the line of aim) and its effect on stroke.
I was able to lock him in a single plane, although not as tight as mine.
End result, he was more stable and his stroke improved instantaneously.
He thought I should be charging for this kind of stuff.
However, while I like to help someone, I’m not interested in being a teacher on permanent bases.


I’m planning on teaching this to someone stronger to get instant useful feedback on validity of my theories. Just an experiment.........

 

[FranCrimi]

Deleted Duplicate post

 

[FranCrimi]

@Roger - I know - and you (and Fran) have been very objective and open-minded in this discussion. Mitch Ellerman and SVB both have "natural" alignment, though Shane's arm does kick out on his final stroke.

Anyways you raise a good point - should a player change the way their body naturally aligns on a shot? Natural in the sense that it's their natural tendency to align that way, not the natural alignment I've described. So in a way, what I'm describing could be considered "unnatural" for that person.

My opinion is that at the end of the day, the player just needs a repeatable stroke. But I also think "natural alignment" is easier to repeat. A player that goes in specifically for stroke lessons probably doesn't feel like what he has is working out for him.

If the player isn't able to deliver the cueball where he wants it, then he has a problem with either his perception (dominant eye) or his stroke accuracy. And for those players that are perceiving correctly, but can't deliver the cue ball accurately, it comes down to 2 options:
1) Work with what you have
2) Change it

I think the latter can find what they're looking for in "natural alignment", or for the semantically-challenged, the line 1 and 2 relationship.

luckwouldhaveit, it would be nice if you had a real name, but ok if you don't want to step up and say who you are. I appreciate that you acknowledged that I am keeping an open mind. I am. I also want you to know that I have been a student of 'stance' for over 2 decades. I have helped some players without even seeing them play, just by their descriptions of how they stand, and once I see a player in action, I can really help.

I agree that there are some issues of stance that are more natural than others. One extremely important issue is the relationship between lower and upper body placement. You must know how the player is standing in order to evaluate their upper body position at the table. I am fully prepared to call that a fact. Others may not agree with me but I am dead to the nuts clear on that.

So, how are your players standing? Where are they placing their feet? I bet that the variances in their stances may be proportionate to the variances in their upper body positions, including elbow placement.

So, yes, what you're saying may be a natural result from their hip placement at the table, which is the natural result from their feet placement. I think if you haven't already studied their feet placement, you probably should.

I know that I will as I look into this. I will even be so bold as to say that there may even be a better foot placement for some of the players you showed. What you don't know is if some of these players ever experience aches and pains after long sessions of playing.

 

[shankster8]

luckwouldhaveit, it would be nice if you had a real name, but ok if you don't want to step up and say who you are. I appreciate that you acknowledged that I am keeping an open mind. I am. I also want you to know that I have been a student of 'stance' for over 2 decades. I have helped some players without even seeing them play, just by their descriptions of how they stand, and once I see a player in action, I can really help.

I agree that there are some issues of stance that are more natural than others. One extremely important issue is the relationship between lower and upper body placement. You must know how the player is standing in order to evaluate their upper body position at the table. I am fully prepared to call that a fact. Others may not agree with me but I am dead to the nuts clear on that.

So, how are your players standing? Where are they placing their feet? I bet that the variances in their stances may be proportionate to the variances in their upper body positions, including elbow placement.

So, yes, what you're saying may be a natural result from their hip placement at the table, which is the natural result from their feet placement. I think if you haven't already studied their feet placement, you probably should.

I know that I will as I look into this. I will even be so bold as to say that there may even be a better foot placement for some of the players you showed. What you don't know is if some of these players ever experience aches and pains after long sessions of playing.

Fran, you dodged luckwouldhaveit's posts initially, that showed alot Then, after a couple pages elapsed, neither you nor any other instructor had confidence to even contemplate other than shoulder, wrist, elbow, and grip hand should fall in a plane. That is the conventional wisdom luckwouldhaveit is focusing on. You and your elite brethren have had ample opportunity to elucidate on this issue. Instead, you have focused only on challenging luckwouldhaveit to divulge his name. This is a sad eye-opener, IMO.

 

[FranCrimi]

Fran, you dodged luckwouldhaveit's posts initially, that showed alot Then, after a couple pages elapsed, neither you nor any other instructor had confidence to even contemplate other than shoulder, wrist, elbow, and grip hand should fall in a plane. That is the conventional wisdom luckwouldhaveit is focusing on. You and your elite brethren have had ample opportunity to elucidate on this issue. Instead, you have focused only on challenging luckwouldhaveit to divulge his name. This is a sad eye-opener, IMO.

You're certainly entitled to your opinion but I think I've been very open and honest here. I don't generally like to engage with people who don't identify themselves. I made an exception here due to the interesting subject matter. If that says something about me, then, good. I always post under my name and I am not afraid of repercussions of saying what I think, unlike others.

Regarding the upper body, again, I will repeat what I said. You can't isolate the upper portion of the body and attach a specific philosophy to it. You have to observe both the upper and lower together. Sorry if you think that's skirting the issue but THAT"S WHAT I BELIEVE. Pool is NOT just played from the waist-up just because that's the only part you can see at table height. There's a whole lot more going on beneath that. I suggest that you and everyone else who plays or teaches pool who doesn't attach importance to it, start thinking about that.

 

[BRKNRUN]

So, how are your players standing? Where are they placing their feet? I bet that the variances in their stances may be proportionate to the variances in their upper body positions, including elbow placement.

I was waiting for an instructor to post something like this. I believe that this is what determines your stroke plane....I don't believe you have any control on your ultimate natural stroke plane.

I think what determines your stroke planes described in the OP is. Grip, Stance (feet), and Posture.

Change any of those three and it changes your stroke plane....

If your upper body does not "fall" into your "perceived" ideal stoke plane...the only way to change it is to change your Grip, Stance, Posture....If you try and force it....it is no longer "natural" and you will eventually have it move back to a "natural" position. (which I believe has been demonstrated by Roger's post about it always creeping back)....Based on Rogers Grip, Stance, Posture, that is where his upper body wants to be....him contorting the outcome will end up being inconsistent in the long run...(until it creeps back to its natural position)

The added problem is that it might "move back" at the worst time....right on a "key" shot and cause a wild miss.

 

[bboxgrinder]

Don't challenge the instructors. Hasn't anyone realised this game is played with books. Funny thing here is if the ops points could really be proved to be wrong they would have done so, not derailed and turned into a we know but you don't and it's going to cost you to learn it. Puuulease, lol.

 

[Wolven]

Here is an example of a setup for right handed, right eye dominant, low low stance.
45 degree to the stick and line of aim is a good starting point.
One way to align would be to place heel (could be another part) of right foot on the line of aim your eye on the line of aim as well.
This would be the starting point. Weight is on the right foot.
Left leg moves diagonally left and forward so that your body ends up 45 degrees or so to the stick. As you go down your ass moves out of the way of the cue, it is clockwise movement.
The distance between the legs is important too much and your eye and body would be pulled left of the aim, too little and you cannot get down as your eye will go out too much right, you will be crowding the stick. You want to be leaning slightly forward.

At address of the cue ball (with tip .5 - 1 cm from the CB your forearm is at perpendicular or ½ inch forward of that, it depends on the elevation of your elbow, but all in all it is at relaxed rest).
Your forearm and your grip hand is forward of your hip at address, and when you swing back the hand never goes back pass the hip.
In this type of setup If you keep your bridge hand straight at elbow, the further right you end up with your bridge hand the easier it will be to keep the cue straight at all times.
Use open bridge. Move the cue back and forth.
How easy is it to move the stick back and forth in a straight line?
I bet there is some error where you can wiggle your right hand left or right and if you wanted your tip could hit about 1 inch either way.

Once down in stance, angle your body counterclockwise but keep the relationship between your right eye and stick the same, you should notice that the small change in angle moves the stick and your eye off the correct line of aim.
That’s ok swing a few times and see if the stick is moving straight. The error should decrease, the wiggle room should be less, the tip deviation would decrease drastically and you would notice that the hand wiggles more in one direction.

Reposition your legs so you move back to your original line of aim but keep the upper body alignment exactly the same.
We are back at the starting point but we have angled the body slightly differently.
This exercise can be taken further, in the end you want to end up in a plane where there is close to 0 chance of you being able to move the grip hand left or right without some kind of discomfort.

Ok, it is easier to demonstrate in person and a picture is worth a thousand words but anyway.

Does any of this make any sense to anyone out there?

 

[FranCrimi]

Here is an example of a setup for right handed, right eye dominant, low low stance.
45 degree to the stick and line of aim is a good starting point.
One way to align would be to place heel (could be another part) of right foot on the line of aim your eye on the line of aim as well.
This would be the starting point. Weight is on the right foot.
Left leg moves diagonally left and forward so that your body ends up 45 degrees or so to the stick. As you go down your ass moves out of the way of the cue, it is clockwise movement.
The distance between the legs is important too much and your eye and body would be pulled left of the aim, too little and you cannot get down as your eye will go out too much right, you will be crowding the stick. You want to be leaning slightly forward.

At address of the cue ball (with tip .5 - 1 cm from the CB your forearm is at perpendicular or ½ inch forward of that, it depends on the elevation of your elbow, but all in all it is at relaxed rest).
Your forearm and your grip hand is forward of your hip at address, and when you swing back the hand never goes back pass the hip.
In this type of setup If you keep your bridge hand straight at elbow, the further right you end up with your bridge hand the easier it will be to keep the cue straight at all times.
Use open bridge. Move the cue back and forth.
How easy is it to move the stick back and forth in a straight line?
I bet there is some error where you can wiggle your right hand left or right and if you wanted your tip could hit about 1 inch either way.

Once down in stance, angle your body counterclockwise but keep the relationship between your right eye and stick the same, you should notice that the small change in angle moves the stick and your eye off the correct line of aim.
That’s ok swing a few times and see if the stick is moving straight. The error should decrease, the wiggle room should be less, the tip deviation would decrease drastically and you would notice that the hand wiggles more in one direction.

Reposition your legs so you move back to your original line of aim but keep the upper body alignment exactly the same.
We are back at the starting point but we have angled the body slightly differently.
This exercise can be taken further, in the end you want to end up in a plane where there is close to 0 chance of you being able to move the grip hand left or right without some kind of discomfort.

Ok, it is easier to demonstrate in person and a picture is worth a thousand words but anyway.

Does any of this make any sense to anyone out there?

You lost me at "you want to be leaning slightly forward." Really? Check out the top players. Is that what you're seeing?

As far as the other things you mentioned, turning counter clockwise a bit from 45 degrees sounds good. In fact, why don't you stay there instead of going back to the original angle? The hip never gets in the way if you are positioned right. But if you are leaning slightly forward, you will have trouble. In fact, when I work with players, I teach them that if they find themselves leaning forward, then it's a sign that their stance is off--- and I give them a trouble shooting list to go through to make the correction. But hey, that's just me. I'm one of many people with a philosophy on how to stand.

 

[lee brett]

Hi everyone, just wanted to say a few words on this...

To align properly you first need to sight the ball properly, by finding the line of the shot and then aligning to this. The stance will now come in on this line, leading with your lead leg, right leg if right handed left leg if left handed...

I do all my aiming with my right foot, everything come from here as this is where all my aiming and shooting comes from, this has to be planted in the right place so im properly aligned for every shot....

 

[Wolven]

You lost me at "you want to be leaning slightly forward." Really? Check out the top players. Is that what you're seeing?

As far as the other things you mentioned, turning counter clockwise a bit from 45 degrees sounds good. In fact, why don't you stay there instead of going back to the original angle? The hip never gets in the way if you are positioned right. But if you are leaning slightly forward, you will have trouble. In fact, when I work with players, I teach them that if they find themselves leaning forward, then it's a sign that their stance is off--- and I give them a trouble shooting list to go through to make the correction. But hey, that's just me. I'm one of many people with a philosophy on how to stand.

Leaning slightly forward as opposed to having weight on the back leg. Not sure how to explain otherwise. Ass out or bend at waist from the drawing below you would be sort of leaning towards cue without leaning. The taller the player the more it would seem like a lean, for short player there would be none. However, in order to have a solid bridge that slightly digs into the table very slight favoring of front is not a bad thing. Of course my coach likes the totally neutral center of gravity. Back leg is straight, slight bend in front. I like commitment to forward action.


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Ohh, I forgot to add. That additional change of angle that's just for demonstration purpose only for the player to see the difference. When I'm getting to shoot I don't do that, I'm already there. Thanks......

 

[Wolven]

Hi everyone, just wanted to say a few words on this...

To align properly you first need to sight the ball properly, by finding the line of the shot and then aligning to this. The stance will now come in on this line, leading with your lead leg, right leg if right handed left leg if left handed...

I do all my aiming with my right foot, everything come from here as this is where all my aiming and shooting comes from, this has to be planted in the right place so im properly aligned for every shot....

Thanks for the input on the matter. Definitely right foot is the start of it all for me too. I like the heel on the line of aim.

 

[hunger strike]

Who's on first, who went first?

I'm sorry. I don't understand what you mean by your response. I think it means that you want to go last. So, you're asking people who teach to share their knowledge here for free, and then you will evaluate it?

ASLUCKWOULDHAVEIT did in fact give out his analysis for free in his first post. He posted pictures as examples and gave a thorough analysis. And he didn't have to get paid to do it.

 

[Blackjack]

ASLUCKWOULDHAVEIT did in fact give out his analysis for free in his first post. He posted pictures as examples and gave a thorough analysis. And he didn't have to get paid to do it.

Ok... starting today, everything I teach is also free.

 

[Wolven]

Ok... starting today, everything I teach is also free.

Whatever you would write here would not dig into your profits. For one it takes more than a few words to make someone play better.
In fact it would probably give you exposure and more students.
However, there is a danger too as lots of people here know their stuff and the moment someone writes something concrete they are open to scrutiny.
For most teachers that is a bad thing.

 

[Neil]

..................

 

[Blackjack]

Whatever you would write here would not dig into your profits. For one it takes more than a few words to make someone play better.
In fact it would probably give you exposure and more students.
However, there is a danger too as lots of people here know their stuff and the moment someone writes something concrete they are open to scrutiny.
For most teachers that is a bad thing.

Why would it be a bad thing?