World Record: 526 balls

[macguy]

You can bet what you want - I'll take a Pro breaking and running out on a bar box versus a 9 footer.

You would lose that bet. I have watched pros play 8 ball on a 9 footers and they are a threat to run out the whole session every time the come to the table. I was at a tournament in Vegas around 1995 and every player strung racks. As you watched it became a joke. It was just a war of running out 4,5,6, racks at a clip and I mean everybody. 8 ball for the pros is a joke on a 9 footer.

 

[jay helfert]

Reproducing the conditions of yesteryear is, to me, time wasted. As some have noted, nappy cloths and lousy pool balls were standard back then, rail rubber was less consistent, low deflection shafts didn't even exist yet, pool rooms were hot and smoky, etc., etc., etc.

How many AZers recall that, in pro baseball, the pitcher's mound was lowered in the late 1960's? Does that mean that we cannot compare the hitters and pitchers of today with those of yesteryear? No, it doesn't. Baseball has evolved and is different today than in the past, but players, fans, and sports journalists all delight in comparing the stats across the generations, despite the fact they understand how much has changed about the game.

Mosconi was the best of his era and owns the highest exhibition run in history (as already mentioned, Cranfield ran 768 in practice). In the exhibitions at the Riviera, noone beat Mosconi, but Willie's record will fall one day. Schmidt, Hohmann, Harriman, Appleton, Ortmann, and a few others have it in them to beat Willie's highest exhibition run, and I wish them good luck in doing so.

The difficulty of comparing players across generations has been discussed often here on the forum. Nonetheless, I feel that trying to reproduce the playing conditions of the past to facilitate such comparison is going overboard.

Good post Stu. It would be next to impossible to duplicate those conditions today. The table was an A.E. Schmidt over-sized 4x8 (46"x92") and it had straight cut pockets and fairly deep shelves. They were not "buckets" as many have suggested. I played on similar tables as a young man, and if you didn't hit the pocket cleanly, the ball wouldn't go in. Throw in the slow cloth and the clay balls (remember this was the 50's) and all of a sudden it's not easy to run even 100 balls!

Even the esteemed Lassiter (who was a great 14.1 player) said he liked to practice on a 4x8 to "get my cue ball." If he could play the close position required on the smaller table, he felt that he was now ready to compete successfully on the 4.5x9 tournament tables. And he didn't have such a bad record either! Just the most successful player of his era. But maybe someone wants to fault him for playing with slightly larger pockets, which by the way wasn't always the case. There were many tourneys (and challenge matches) played on very tough tables in the 60's and 70's. Almost every action spot had at least one (or more) triple tough tables, mostly for One Pocket.

One more thing, Mosconi was playing in front of an audience and it was a real exhibition match. He had only one chance to make this run! Both Cranfield and Eufemia made their runs in the 60's while PRACTICING! And they were using phenolic balls (big difference right there). Eufemia was practicing in his local room and Cranfield SUPPOSEDLY did it while practicing at home! Mosconi was playing in a strange room that he'd been in only once before. I get very tired of people knocking what was an amazing feat of pool wizardry by one of the greatest players of all time. I saw the man play when he could still dab it a little. And no one today could play Straight Pool like this guy. The only player I saw who was even close was The Miz, and even he wasn't quite on a par with Willie at his best. Sigel would be third on my personal list. And these three were on another level then anyone else. Sorry boys but that's just my opinion. :wink:

 

[watchez]

You would lose that bet. I have watched pros play 8 ball on a 9 footers and they are a threat to run out the whole session every time the come to the table. I was at a tournament in Vegas around 1995 and every player strung racks. As you watched it became a joke. It was just a war of running out 4,5,6, racks at a clip and I mean everybody. 8 ball for the pros is a joke on a 9 footer.

I think your memory must be lost from 1995. In fact, there is statiscal data to back up what I am saying and since we will never have a chance to bet -
go to www.internationalpooltour.com and find me a player that had a 40% or higher break and run % for one of the events.

Efren did pretty good for those events and his % was 20% was he won First Place and $500K.

http://www.internationalpooltour.com/Players/Bio_Reyes_Efren.aspx

 

[itsfroze]

I agree

I don't know how much discussion there has been about Willie Mosconi's world record but I know there's been plenty.

I was just wondering if it would be fair or even appropriate if a 4 x 8 table should be set up with 4 7/8" pockets, like the one Willie used to make the world record that still holds to today?

Many of today's tables have much narrower pockets than this and I'm sure it inhibits todays pocket billiard 14:1 specialists from beating that record.

Would you like to see the world record broken using the same equipment?
Would you prefer seeing the world record broken using today's larger tables with the 4 7/8" pockets?
Or would you prefer to never see Willie's record broken. PS his were on 9 footers by the way.
Personally, I would like to see the record broken, based upon someone using equipment similar to which Willie played on.

JoeyA

Yes Joey I agree I would like to see the record broken on same equipment just as you said . Why ,because it's already been broken twice by Ziggy (Mike Eufimia) spelled wrong probably but his record breaking peformances with witnesses were never recognized. He also ran 1100 and something in Paramus N.J.. It was was in a bowling alley which I think was called Ten Pin on the mall which was in the basement of the shopping center and there was a small pool room of about 7 or 8 tables 9 footers and it was on table one and there is a plaque on the wall that says the exact number of balls which I can't raemember exactly and that there were witnesses.

 

[hunger strike]

pocket size....

Well, during part of the history of straight pool, the ten footer era, the championship pocket size was 4.5 inches. Helfert makes a very important point, the pocket angle and shelf can make balls tough to make even with bigger pockets. Even if someone beats the 526, they won't be Mosconi. He was who he was because of a very long and distinguished career and was a legend before the 526. And if someone had beaten that during his lifetime he would have beaten them back, from most accounts...even after he had his stroke.
~Peck away at the 526 all ya want, you're pecking at a battleship. Personally I am glad that there are a variety of games, along with equipment changes that make it impossible to compare some heroes to others. That just gives us more legitimate heroes for our sport.

 

[itsfroze]

Just asking ?????

Once again, people are doing their best to discredit Mosconi. I had the pleasure to meet him a few times and he was a real class act. What he couldn't stand was the degradation of the wonderful sport that he dedicated his life to improve. He grew up with the hustlers and bums and wanted pool to raise above all that. Look around at your favorite pool hall and see just how many of those people would you want to know where you lived, let alone invite them over to dinner? It's sad to see that a lot of the "Legends" of this wonderful sport are just 2nd rate hustlers and gamblers who would cheat anyone they could for a couple of bucks. Also, IMHO, straight pool can be harder on an 8ft table than a 9ft table. You use mostly 1/2 the table anyway so there is more of a chance to tie up balls. 10ft table is a different story.
I heard Mosconi try to promote larger pockets on most tables so that the average player would not get so discouraged and could make more shots. This, he believed, would lead to more people playing pool.I also believe his Brunswick contract preventing gambling to give pool a better image. When he was a young man in Philadelphia, I'll wager not too many of these "road hustlers"would travel there for some action.
Finally. Seems that the attention span of todays players would really be tested to run 527. Picture throwing out 15 balls out on the table and shooting them all in and doing that 35-36 times with out a miss. Hmmmm.

Do you think that Willie was also a class act when he was in the finals of a straight pool tournament and the ref called a foul on him and he ended up finishing second. Well when the money and trophy presentation was being held and by chance the same ref called Willie up first to give him his second place money,Willie took the money he was handed in one hand and with his other knocked out the ref who was handing him the money and walked out. Real classy I'd say.

 

[macguy]

I think your memory must be lost from 1995. In fact, there is statiscal data to back up what I am saying and since we will never have a chance to bet -
go to www.internationalpooltour.com and find me a player that had a 40% or higher break and run % for one of the events.

Efren did pretty good for those events and his % was 20% was he won First Place and $500K.

http://www.internationalpooltour.com/Players/Bio_Reyes_Efren.aspx

I can only tell you what I have seen. I remember watching Joe Salazar play Gene the Machine in like a 20 hour session of 8 ball on the 9 footer. 5 and 7 racks at a time were nothing for either if them.

I should add the % you point to in the IPT if you moved those same players to 8 foot tables would go down not up.

I should also add the the IPT tables were intentionally set up to play lousy and hard to play on from the cloth to pockets. They were not run of the mill tables.

 

[Black-Balled]

Many of Mosconi's Record stand today, and I ask how was he able to do this without, MAGIC CUES, MAGIC TIPS, and MAGIC CHALK? The answer I think was SKILL. AMAZON has his book CHEAP FROM $11.17.

Please...tell us more:

 

[AtLarge]

I think your memory must be lost from 1995. In fact, there is statiscal data to back up what I am saying and since we will never have a chance to bet -
go to www.internationalpooltour.com and find me a player that had a 40% or higher break and run % for one of the events.

Efren did pretty good for those events and his % was 20% was he won First Place and $500K.

http://www.internationalpooltour.com/Players/Bio_Reyes_Efren.aspx

I agree with your point to macguy that 8-ball B&R's aren't as common in most events as he would imply. But you are using the IPT data incorrectly. The 20% figure for Reyes is a bogus figure -- number of B&R's by Reyes divided by the total number of games he played (which, obviously, includes games in which he did not break). What we'd like to know is number of B&R's divided by number of games in which he broke. The other B&R percentage given in the IPT data is close to that (assuming it was winner breaks format) -- number of B&R's divided by number of games won.

As far as finding a player with higher than a 40% B&R percentage for one of those events, check out Morris (44.8%), Souquet (43.4%), Ortmann (47.9%), and Bustamente (42.9%) -- all in the 2006 World Open in Reno.

I added up the total number of B&R games and the total number of games won by the top 10 money winners in the two IPT events for which data are given -- the 2006 North American Open in Las Vegas and the 2006 World Open in Reno. They had 1,152 B&R's and 3,218 games won, for a percentage of about 36%.

 

[watchez]

I can only tell you what I have seen. I remember watching Joe Salazar play Gene the Machine in like a 20 hour session of 8 ball on the 9 footer. 5 and 7 racks at a time were nothing for either if them.

I should add the % you point to in the IPT if you moved those same players to 8 foot tables would go down not up.

I should also add the the IPT tables were intentionally set up to play lousy and hard to play on from the cloth to pockets. They were not run of the mill tables.

You said bar boxes ---

We can setup two tables - a 9 footer and a bar box. You can pick any player you want to play on the 9 footer. I'll take SVB on the bar box and the window is open he breaks and runs higher than the 9 foot player.

Correct At Large --- and on a bar table those players would be 65% or higher.

End of thread hijack --- back to someone breaking Willie's record. No one will in my lifetime simply because the game is not played enough.

 

[TX Poolnut]

When the record officially falls, (and it will fall sooner or later) there will be those that insist that because the rails are different, because the table is different, because the __________ (fill in the blank) is different that there should be different records for different equipment.

Maybe there should be, but if someone gets to 527 and it's verifiable, I think the pool world should acknowledge that acomplishment as the new record.

 

[johnnyutah]

Championships?

Personally, I'd rather win a world title.

Champions win championships. Does anybody care, for example, about a golfer's best practice round?

Did Willie play with Aramiths on 860? No, but again, who cares? I'd much rather be a champion, say, like Ortmann, than somebody who has run a lotta balls, but has done zippo in world championship play.

Mosconi had 15 of them!

 

[jay helfert]

When the record officially falls, (and it will fall sooner or later) there will be those that insist that because the rails are different, because the table is different, because the __________ (fill in the blank) is different that there should be different records for different equipment.

Maybe there should be, but if someone gets to 527 and it's verifiable, I think the pool world should acknowledge that acomplishment as the new record.

I'm with you here. Some day this record will be broken and hat's off to the person who does it. Gold Crown, Diamond, Kim Steel, Gabriel, whatever, it doesn't matter. It will be some feat when it happens.

 

[Winston846]

The only player I saw who was even close was The Miz, and even he wasn't quite on a par with Willie at his best. Sigel would be third on my personal list. And these three were on another level then anyone else. Sorry boys but that's just my opinion. :wink:

Irving Crane??? No love for Irving, Jay?

 

[brandoncook26]

I really think of the current group of players, John Schmidt has the best chance to break the record. There are a group of guys, previously mentioned, that all have the talent to do it. I think Schmidt has the best chance because he is the only one I know of that actively plays the game all the time.

In the 14.1 forum, there is a thread about Schmidt practicing at Marop's and he had three runs of >200 in the same day. It is conceivable to believe that someone putting in the time has a chance to do so. There are multiple 400+ runs. I believe that a 500 will be done in the next few years, and hopefully with the technology we have, we will get it recorded.

 

[Winston846]

I really think of the current group of players, John Schmidt has the best chance to break the record. There are a group of guys, previously mentioned, that all have the talent to do it. I think Schmidt has the best chance because he is the only one I know of that actively plays the game all the time.

In the 14.1 forum, there is a thread about Schmidt practicing at Marop's and he had three runs of >200 in the same day. It is conceivable to believe that someone putting in the time has a chance to do so. There are multiple 400+ runs. I believe that a 500 will be done in the next few years, and hopefully with the technology we have, we will get it recorded.

Thorsten Hohmann can run balls like no tomorrow, too. I also think Darren Appleton could give it a run if he played the game a little more.

 

[brandoncook26]

Thorsten Hohmann can run balls like no tomorrow, too. I also think Darren Appleton could give it a run if he played the game a little more.

I agree with your assessment. Honestly, I think Toastie is the best straight pool player in the world. I think he is as smooth as anyone in history, and I like his style when playing.

Darren is amazing. A few years ago he entered the straight pool challenge at the derby without even knowing the rules and won it.

The only reason I put Schmidt above Hohmann is because of his activity in the game. Maybe Thorsten puts in time in the game, but John is the only one I know of that does for sure. You can't get really high runs without putting in the time. Those monster runs are occasionally sprinkled in around much smaller ones. The more they play, the better chance at the big one.

 

[Winston846]

I agree with your assessment. Honestly, I think Toastie is the best straight pool player in the world. I think he is as smooth as anyone in history, and I like his style when playing.

Darren is amazing. A few years ago he entered the straight pool challenge at the derby without even knowing the rules and won it.

The only reason I put Schmidt above Hohmann is because of his activity in the game. Maybe Thorsten puts in time in the game, but John is the only one I know of that does for sure.

And I agree with your assessment. I also think Schmidt has the BEST chance. I just threw out two other names that I think could do it as well. :wink:

Edit: And if Danny Harriman starts playing regularly again, I wouldn't rule him out.

 

[jay helfert]

Irving Crane??? No love for Irving, Jay?

Absolutely! I guess I was referring to the modern generation of Straight Pool players when I mentioned Mizerak and Sigel. And now I realize we ain't so "modern" ourselves! Crane and Caras were traditionally Mosconi's big rivals throughout his career. And Ponzi (along with Greenleaf) was he nemesis when he was a young man and had trouble winning his first championship. After the big three of Mosconi, Crane and Caras had their 20-25 year reign, Lassiter and Balsis became the big guns of 14.1.

This was still the heyday of Straight Pool tourneys (up until the 70's when 9-Ball took over). Guys like Ray Martin, Nick Varner, Jim Rempe, Dallas West and Allen Hopkins were the main challengers for Mizerak and Sigel. Danny Diliberto spanned both these generations as a solid contender as well, with Lou Butera another championship player. But the top dogs were Lassiter and Balsis, circa 1960's, and Mizerak and Sigel in the 70's and 80's.

 

[Palmerfan]

Reyes

Should the be an asterisk next to the record, probably. The game has evolved, but you have to also consider he was making record runs on tables that had blanket like cloth, playing in places before air conditioning, different rubber in the rails, different balls and so on. Where do you draw the line? We don't know if it was not even more difficult back then, then it is today and the things he did viewed through that prisim even more astounding.

We don't know how many balls say John could run on a table like Mosconi played on, neither do we know how many balls Mosconi could run on the more perfect conditions that can be found today. I would tend to lean to Mosconi. Under today's conditions he could have been as, if not more, dominate then he was almost 3/4 of a century ago but it is imposable to ever know.

Had Efren played 14.1 and practiced like he did for Rotation growing up and much later for One Pocket he would be running balls right now..that he started running 2 days ago..I have spoken to players who spent time watching him in the Philippines say without a doubt he could have run over 1000..more than once on a 5x10 table, forget 4x8 or 4 1/2 x 9..Diamond, Brunswick or Olhausen..shimmed pockets or not..no question. He is also famous for playing "tap" when he gets bored which is when you put two object balls frozen in the middle of the table and lightly tap them with a cue ball until they separate so far that the cue ball cant strike both of them..he then turns and shoots one of the balls around the table 3-4 rails and gets it touching or very close to the other object ball and continues...for HOURS. He also practices 2 9 ball racks at a time shooting the 1 and the 1..the 2 and the 2..in that order and has gotten as far as the 7 ball.

Had 14.1 been a game he focused on and played seriously he would have done things in that game that we cant conceive of. The same way he changed the way kicking was executed in 9-10 ball before he came along...he would have changed something in the way 14.1 is played. I'm sure he could identify "dead" balls in a rack right now that most experienced players don't see. his eyes his pool mind and his creativity is simply on a different level that no pool player has reached.