Frozen ball throw shots

[3RAILKICK]

This is another shot that gives me trouble:

I guess the short version question is-how do YOU successfully make these shots???

I sorta understand the theory of them clinging together, moving in the direction of the cue strike, before the (thrown)OB heads down the aligned contact point line to the pocket or rail or whatever.

The 'sorta understand' is the problem.

Especially when the CB and OB are frozen, but also when two OBs are frozen, I find it pretty hard to predict the amount of alteration of the 'as it lays' travel line by the time the thrown ball reaches its destination.

OB travel distance, cueing speed, cueing angle(elevated or level), inside or outside english, top or bottom CB hit, approach angle of cue, crisp hit or 'push' all seem to change the result. And the formula for CB/OB may not be the same for OB/OB frozen ball throw shots.

Anbody else have trouble with these shots?

Anybody have any suggestions that might save me having to hit another 1/2 a gazillion shots to get it? (It's that last 1/2 gazillion that gets tiresome)

(Oh, let's not forget the standard dirty balls, humidity, cloth condition fudge factors.)

I enjoy these shots. I look for them in the rack. Even though they give me trouble.

Thanks


Take care and Happy Fathers Day

 

[pool101]

When 2 object balls are froze, hitting the rt side of the back ball throws the the front ball left. The softer the hit the more throw. The thinner the hit the more throw. Adding english to the cue ball will add to or reduce the throw depending on whether you are using inside or outside english when contacting the back ball.

 

[Neil]

With frozen ob's, standard conditions and equipment, you will get app. a max of 1" of throw per foot traveled. It's not exact, but a very good estimate for determining if you have enough room to throw a ball in or not.

 

[Slh]

When 2 object balls are froze, hitting the rt side of the back ball throws the the front ball left. The softer the hit the more throw. The thinner the hit the more throw. Adding english to the cue ball will add to or reduce the throw depending on whether you are using inside or outside english when contacting the back ball.

i know the fuller the hit the more throw.

 

[randyg]

When 2 object balls are froze, hitting the rt side of the back ball throws the the front ball left. The softer the hit the more throw. The thinner the hit the more throw. Adding english to the cue ball will add to or reduce the throw depending on whether you are using inside or outside english when contacting the back ball.

I don't think so. Fuller=more throw, ideal would be a 1/2 ball hit. English should have no bearing on the shot....randyg

 

[Ralph Kramden]

Bob Jewett has some articles about throw on his website.

www.sfbilliards.com/misc.htm

Miscellanious files #1 and #38 may be of interest to you.

 

[dr_dave]

FYI, lots of info on frozen-ball shots can be found here:

http://billiards.colostate.edu/threads/frozen.html​

and lot's of videos, articles, and other resource on throw in general can be found here:

http://billiards.colostate.edu/threads/throw.html​

Enjoy,
Dave

 

[pool101]

I don't think so. Fuller=more throw, ideal would be a 1/2 ball hit. English should have no bearing on the shot....randyg

Randy, I set it up using donuts, all three balls in a row, unless I am subconsciously doing something, slightly thinner then a half ball hit results in more throw. Inside english also creates more rotation which caused more throw. Outside english reduced throw. I tried keeping speed the same soft hit, on a 9 ft table.

 

[dr_dave]

Randy, I set it up using donuts, all three balls in a row, unless I am subconsciously doing something, slightly thinner then a half ball hit results in more throw. Inside english also creates more rotation which caused more throw. Outside english reduced throw. I tried keeping speed the same soft hit, on a 9 ft table.

The amount of throw depends on cut angle, shot speed, amount and type of English, and ball conditions. Most of the important effects are demonstrated in the following video:

NV B.86 - Cut-induced throw (CIT) and spin-induced throw (SIT), from VEPS IV​

And a complete summary of all throw effects, along with article and video resources, can be found here:

http://billiards.colostate.edu/threads/aiming.html#English_effects​

Enjoy,
Dave

 

[Mitchxout]

Randy, I set it up using donuts, all three balls in a row, unless I am subconsciously doing something, slightly thinner then a half ball hit results in more throw. Inside english also creates more rotation which caused more throw. Outside english reduced throw. I tried keeping speed the same soft hit, on a 9 ft table.

You're right, english can alter the throw of 2 frozen balls. Also, the 1/2 ball hit is an approximation, I think you're right about max throw being slightly thinner.

Good job.

 

[pool101]

You're right, english can alter the throw of 2 frozen balls. Also, the 1/2 ball hit is an approximation, I think you're right about max throw being slightly thinner.

Good job.

Thanks, I was right and wrong in the wording of my first post, slightly thinner than 1/2 ball is max throw, thinner than that decreases throw.
I do stand by the inside english increasing the throw and outside decreasing it. The effect of english on frozen balls can add an inch or slightly more to the throw when used with the right speed on a long shot on a 9 ft table. I have used it to make an otherwise unmakeable shot a few times.
Mark

 

[randyg]

Randy, I set it up using donuts, all three balls in a row, unless I am subconsciously doing something, slightly thinner then a half ball hit results in more throw. Inside english also creates more rotation which caused more throw. Outside english reduced throw. I tried keeping speed the same soft hit, on a 9 ft table.

Where do the three balls come from. Three balls in line can not be thrown. Sounds like we are talking about two different things.
randyg

 

[AtLarge]

Where do the three balls come from. Three balls in line can not be thrown. Sounds like we are talking about two different things.
randyg

Perhaps he just means the CB is on the line through the centers of the two frozen OB's (but not frozen to the two OB's).

 

[Mitchxout]

Perhaps he just means the CB is on the line through the centers of the two frozen OB's (but not frozen to the two OB's).

I understood it the same way as you.

 

[pool101]

Perhaps he just means the CB is on the line through the centers of the two frozen OB's (but not frozen to the two OB's).

That is what I mean, all three balls in a line. about 10 inches between cue ball and frozen object balls.
I set up the donuts two different times, with 7 ft from the frozen balls to the end rail. I can add a little over an inch using inside english versus no english, and trying several times to achieve maximum throw by varying the amount of cut.

 

[Bob Jewett]

Everyone has some trouble with these shots. Well, maybe not Lassiter but he's dead.

The most important ball is the one that hits the ball you are trying to make. The most important thing to note about that "key" ball is the direction of the motion of its surface at the point of contact. After that, you should keep in mind some other factors: higher speed usually but not always means less throw; more surface velocity usually but not always means more throw; chalk may mean extreme throw; clean balls usually but not always means less throw.

Here is a plot of throw versus speed for a three-ball combo in which the key ball is frozen to the object ball. It is a three-ball combo so the spin on the cue ball (if any) was a very small factor.

As you can see from the plot, for small "cut" angles the throw is not influenced by the speed of the shot.