English on 2-3 rails

S

Slh

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Now i must admit I'm confused on judging the angles on 2-3 rails shot. Let's see this diagram, this shot comes up very often in a game of pool. I want to play the 1 in the side and play 3 rails around to get position on the 2. I always hitted this shot with right hand english and a little top. I always used right side only to hit the cueball softer because the english bring the cueball around the table. But now i realize I'm not really aware how the english changes the cueball path on 2 and 3 rails. I visualize the angles correcty on 1 rail because it is very easy, but on 2-3 and more rails i admit i'm confused.
Can you post a diagram on how the english changes the cueball paths?

CueTable Help

 
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I'm not current on diagramming tables but I will attempt to explain the principals.

Running english does a couple of things... namely, it opens up the rebound angle after cushion contact (especially at steep angles into the cushion) and it also allows the cue ball to pick up speed upon contact with a cushion at slow to medium speeds.

In your diagram, the angle from the cue ball to the 1-ball is somewhat slight for getting the cue ball to travel 3 (or 4) rails to get position on the 2-ball in the corner pocket that it is near.

However, it's doable in my opinion, provided that you put a very controlled and smooth stroke on whitey with RH english and a little top as you mentioned.

The additional key to the shot is to determine how deep into the upper RH corner area you should target for your first cushion contact. I would target for the 2nd diamond or slightly to it's RH side.

What you want to try to visualize before getting down for the shot is where your first, your second and your third cushion contact target points are for whitey to travel through the exact center of the table after contacting the 3rd cushion.

Having whitey travel through the exact center of the table (or close to it) will prevent you from scratching, and if you have enough speed left, for whitey to come to rest near the 2nd diamond on the long rail near the upper LH corner pocket.

That would make making the 2-ball fairly easy.
 
Adding running english will open up the angles (widen them) as the CB goes around the table. As for the follow and center ball, now you are changing the angle the CB hits the first rail.

Think of it this way, in the shot you diagramed, the CB is headed in the general direction of the top right corner pocket.

If you put follow on the shot it will hit the first rail farther from that pocket. The interesting way to think of this is each subsequent pocket that the CB approaches will be the opposite.

In other words follow puts you farther from the first pocket and nearer the next, and farther from the next.

Or, center ball puts you nearer the first pocket, farther from the second and nearer to the third on each rail.

Nearer, farther, nearer, farther, or vice versa. Now combining the feel for the spots the CB hits the rails as it goes around the table, further alterations can be made with running or reverse english. Sometimes drastic changes.

Let me add, that if you judge the CB to hit neither near or far from the first pocket on its way around the table ( IE it hits right in the middle of the rail) then on subsequent rails it hits in about the middle also.

Silly way to think of it I know, but when I used to teach kids that came into my poolroom, this seemed to stick with them. Hope it helps. :)
 
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thanks for the replies. Is there a video which helps to understand this type of angles? I only found videos explaining english only in 1 rail angles
 
The nice thing about 2 or 3 rail position is that a moderate amount of running english doesn't require much adjustment to your aim, but allows you to strike the cueball more softly and use the spin to carry you around. The standard 3 rail kick shot from corner to corner can be played with center ball or with running english, and the aim point on the first cushion is virtually the same either way - for instance, you can aim at the middle diamond on a typical GC and the cueball will land very near the corner pocket whether you use running english or center ball (see the line for cueball A in my diagram)

The way I aim 2 & 3 rail position shots is by using a method often used to aim 2-rail kick shots. I determine the spot on the third cushion where I would like the cueball to hit (cueball B in my diagram), find the midpoint between that spot and the ghost ball for the shot I'm shooting, and draw a line from there to the pocket in the corner I'm coming out of (see the 4-ball and the line drawn from it). In order to hit the third cushion near cueball B, I know I need to come into the first cushion on a line parallel to the line drawn by the 4-ball. That tells me how much follow or draw I need to cause the desired deviation from the tangent line. Using running english will allow me to shoot the shot softer, and will slightly change the angles coming off of the first and second rails, but the ultimate direction of the cueball will be very similar whether I use center ball or running english.

CueTable Help



Hope that helps,
Aaron
 
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As diagrammed, this is a pretty slight angle on the 1 ball and would require a pretty good stroke to get the cue ball around the table. Probably not a good one to practice on until you can confidently get the ball around the table where you want when you have more of a cut angle, making the shot easier.

Most people send the ball around the table based on feel. As one poster said, if you go alter the path of the cue ball to make sure you go through the center of the table you won't scratch. If you can take the scratch out of the equation, then all that's left to do is make sure you make the ball by adjusting for the english properly and hit it with the right speed to get there.

Since I played a lot of 3 cushion, the 3 rail paths around the table are very familiar. You can look up some information on the Corner 5 system if you really want to understand the tracks around the table and how they change based on the starting position of the cue ball. In general, if you head into the middle diamond on the first long rail, you will most likely track toward the middle diamond on the end rail, the middle diamond on the opposite long rail, and down toward about 1 - 1 1/2 diamonds away from the corner pocket. Personally I look at these shots and use normal running english (1 tip of outside, 1 tip of follow to get the ball rolling) if I can, but depending on the angle and tangent line off of the object ball I will slightly alter the path of the cue ball by using follow to dive into the rail sooner or draw to length the approach to the rail out. Once comfortable you can also use more or less outside english to alter the path slightly as well, even using a little inside to really make the ball go long off the second rail. Again, experiment with these ideas and you will quickly develop a feel for using english off 2 and 3 rails.

Scott
 
ok thanks for the replies. Is there a video which explain the english on 2-3-4 and more rails angles? I only found videos which explain english on 1 rail angles.I'm editing the diagram because I did a mistake, the angle is too straight and i want a bigger angle to make the shot plays more natural
 
I'm not aware of any videos out there, but one-rail kicks are truly the only ones where a large aiming adjustment is required (assuming we are talking about running english versus center ball, anyway).

Here is a diagram showing an approximation of the difference between playing a simple two-rail kick with running english versus center ball. Cueball A is struck with center ball, and it's path is shown by the red line. Cueball B is struck with a moderate amount of running english, and it's path is shown by the blue line. The angle off of the first cushion is quite a bit wider for Cueball B, but because the angle off of the second cushion is also widened, the hit on the 1-ball is still achieved.

CueTable Help



The same principal applies to the three cushion kick. All three angles are wider for Cueball B, which has running spin, but this negates itself for the most part. The only time you really have to worry about the individual angles on a multi-rail kick is if you are trying to avoid intervening balls. In this diagram, either shot could be used to pocket the 1-ball, but Cueball B has a better chance of avoiding the hit on the intervening 4-ball, so playing the shot with running english would be more appropriate in this scenario - but again, very little (if any) aiming adjustment is required due to the spin.

CueTable Help



Aaron
 
These are some great replies! I would encourage you to play 3-cushion by yourself even on a pocket table if there are no carom tables at your local pool hall. It is still playable if the table conditions aren't super slow and if the pockets are tight. Systems and rules help a lot, but you need to really mess around with these shots in order to fully understand it.
 
Am i the only one here to have some kind of troubles visualizing the cueball path in this 2,3 and more cushions? I asked the same question to other players and I noticed a lot of them are not really conscious where the cueball is going to. A lot of reply are like "It should came this way" "Maybe, this way...mmm no maybe here" lol..
Tomorrow I will post some other shot I'm not really certain. Basically every path where there are 2 and more rails.
 
Slh said:
Am i the only one here to have some kind of troubles visualizing the cueball path in this 2,3 and more cushions? I asked the same question to other players and I noticed a lot of them are not really conscious where the cueball is going to. A lot of reply are like "It should came this way" "Maybe, this way...mmm no maybe here" lol..
Tomorrow I will post some other shot I'm not really certain. Basically every path where there are 2 and more rails.
Click to expand...

Unless they know the system, usually its pretty generalized. Based on experiences, people learn the tendencies of the cue ball after going 2-3 rails depending on the angle, speed, and position on the rail of the first contact with the rail. There's a couple of videos on the Video Encyclopedia of Pool Shots that can really help you. Some are more pin-point and some are more general. The good thing about 2-3 rail paths with running english are that it is generally more consistent than going 1 or 2 side-to-side rail.
 
Slh said:

CueTable Help

Click to expand...
After shooting this shot several times on my 9' Pro Am, here is the best way for me to play position on the 2-ball.

Cue low right (5:00 o'clock) and draw (with a medium hard stroke) the cue ball back to the RH short rail, targeting for the 2nd diamond. The side spin will open up the angle a bit and the cue ball will contact the lower long rail about 2 diamonds from the lower RH corner pocket... taking the cue ball down near the upper half of the LH short rail for an easy shot on the 2-ball in the corner pocket.

This is a 2-rail position shot in my opinion... not 3 or 4. The initial angle from the cue ball to the 1-ball is too shallow to go 3 or 4 rails consistently (on a 9-footer).

Wish that I knew how to draw it up on the diagram, especially showing the curved path of the cue ball when cuing low and with running english.
 
I should add that when I try to play it 3 rails (high RH english), that I come awfully close to scratching in the lower side pocket.

The cue ball ends up at approximately the same location shooting it either way... but the 2-rail approach (cuing low right) is safer in my opinion.
 
cigardave said:
After shooting this shot several times on my 9' Pro Am, here is the best way for me to play position on the 2-ball.

Cue low right (5:00 o'clock) and draw (with a medium hard stroke) the cue ball back to the RH short rail, targeting for the 2nd diamond. The side spin will open up the angle a bit and the cue ball will contact the lower long rail about 2 diamonds from the lower RH corner pocket... taking the cue ball down near the upper half of the LH short rail for an easy shot on the 2-ball in the corner pocket.

This is a 2-rail position shot in my opinion... not 3 or 4. The initial angle from the cue ball to the 1-ball is too shallow to go 3 or 4 rails consistently (on a 9-footer).

Wish that I knew how to draw it up on the diagram, especially showing the curved path of the cue ball when cuing low and with running english.
Click to expand...

That is quite a fun shot to play but would be much easier if there was more angle to this shot. I think the 3-4 railer with high right hand english is the standard shot but some tables are too slow for that shot. I like both options.
 
cigardave said:
After shooting this shot several times on my 9' Pro Am, here is the best way for me to play position on the 2-ball.

Cue low right (5:00 o'clock) and draw (with a medium hard stroke) the cue ball back to the RH short rail, targeting for the 2nd diamond. The side spin will open up the angle a bit and the cue ball will contact the lower long rail about 2 diamonds from the lower RH corner pocket... taking the cue ball down near the upper half of the LH short rail for an easy shot on the 2-ball in the corner pocket.

This is a 2-rail position shot in my opinion... not 3 or 4. The initial angle from the cue ball to the 1-ball is too shallow to go 3 or 4 rails consistently (on a 9-footer).

Wish that I knew how to draw it up on the diagram, especially showing the curved path of the cue ball when cuing low and with running english.
Click to expand...

I think that would be generally accepted as the "standard" shot here, as it is easier to get the backward bend for a two-railer than to get the forward bend required for the three-railer, and it takes away the side pocket scratch. Here's a diagram of your shot, again using the 4-ball at the midpoint to show the line we'd like to be parallel with coming into the first cushion.

CueTable Help




This shot also sets up well for the two-railer with reverse english, which comes in handy if there are intervening balls... or if you just want to show off a little. Speed is tricky on this shot - you have to hit it a lot harder than you think - so it's best to practice this one for a while before trying it when your lunch money is on the line.

CueTable Help

 
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How good can instruction get on AZ? Good stuff bro

3andstop said:
Adding running english will open up the angles (widen them) as the CB goes around the table. As for the follow and center ball, now you are changing the angle the CB hits the first rail.

Think of it this way, in the shot you diagramed, the CB is headed in the general direction of the top right corner pocket.

If you put follow on the shot it will hit the first rail farther from that pocket. The interesting way to think of this is each subsequent pocket that the CB approaches will be the opposite.

In other words follow puts you farther from the first pocket and nearer the next, and farther from the next.

Or, center ball puts you nearer the first pocket, farther from the second and nearer to the third on each rail.

Nearer, farther, nearer, farther, or vice versa. Now combining the feel for the spots the CB hits the rails as it goes around the table, further alterations can be made with running or reverse english. Sometimes drastic changes.

Let me add, that if you judge the CB to hit neither near or far from the first pocket on its way around the table ( IE it hits right in the middle of the rail) then on subsequent rails it hits in about the middle also.

Silly way to think of it I know, but when I used to teach kids that came into my poolroom, this seemed to stick with them. Hope it helps. :)
Click to expand...

Soooo well written and useful. I know for damn sure you're not secretly pocket point. I have never seen this info in print, and it is extremely useful. If I ever teach it to anyone, pm me your name and I will give you credit. For the sake of history, we should credit where great tips come from. Green to you.
 
subtleties

what I meant about about not having seen "this" in print, I meant the cueball being closer to the first pocket, further from the second, etc. good stuff.
 
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