ABP boycotts Berhman's event

[bigg7]

barry behrmen

I know for a fact at the masters in 2001 that a friend of mine left after his night match $800 in the money . Came back the next morning to be told he had to win 2 more matches to get to $600 winner because of low fan turn out. So barry didn't turn shisty after 9/11 he just got more blatant with his bullshit. The shit pool players will tolerate from other people just because they are part of the pool comunity always makes me chuckle. As always just MHO

 

[gunzby]

Sidetracked the seeding issue. Hmm...

They seemed to have sidetracked my question as well. I asked it twice just in case they didn't see it, but it seemed to have been passed over both times. Instead of asking it again I just went to bed.

It of course had to do with whether or not the ABP was actively trying to court sponsors to form a professional tour. The reason I asked this was to find out if the ABP was a group that was just about making demands (some very reasonable) on promoters, or is the group about that and something bigger.

I suppose that the group is only about trying to achieve demands. There is nothing wrong with that, but if you can't bring anything other than demands to the table it makes your collective power mediocre at best.

The reason I say this is quite simple. Say the ABP is doing what I was wondering about and they do court sponsors to create a pro tour. The pro tour gets successful and the sponsors are happy wanting to sponsor more tournaments (ex. US Open). Barry now has an easier time as a promoter attaining more sponsors (because of the ABP) and has no issues whatsoever adding more money and paying all players in full at the close of the US Open. The reason being is because the ABP brought something to the table. That is why I asked the question and I hope they do read this.

 

[JAM]

What is considered fast for 2 fingers?

:smile:

The people who text today use two thumbs, and for the life of me, I can't figure out how they do it. There's a contest in Arizona each year for the fastest texters. The champions are always under the age of 16.

You're probably a hunt-and-pecker, like my other half. He can move pretty good on the chat forums, but in a forum like this, if you need to write anything lengthy, it's convenient to have a certified professional on call to do it for you. Not everybody has that luxury, I realize.

Of course, when his posts are written on this forum verbatim, with correct punctuation and syntax, there are some who do not believe it is his words and believe it is the words of the certified professional instead.

I am reminded of Ozymanidias, "Look on my works, ye Mighty, and despair...And around that colossal wreck, boundless and bare, the level lands stretch far away."

I hope Shawn comes back and replies to the seeding question at the $25,000-added Joss Turning Stone tournament, a BCA-ranked event.

 

[JAM]

They seemed to have sidetracked my question as well. I asked it twice just in case they didn't see it, but it seemed to have been passed over both times. Instead of asking it again I just went to bed.

Maybe if we keep repeating it on this thread, they will feel compelled to reply.

To seed or not to seed, that is the question! :thumbup:

 

[gunzby]

Maybe if we keep repeating it on this thread, they will feel compelled to reply.

To seed or not to seed, that is the question! :thumbup:

Somehow I highly doubt that. The main questions they answered had only to do with Barry not paying players on time and that was it. I have no problems with that. The players make their living playing and should be paid on time when money is due to them. I just think they need to think a little bigger than just boycotting one tournament that happens once a year.

 

[Derek]

In the great scope of reality, at the end of the day, it's just a bunch of guys . . . playing billiards.

Lockouts have historically been proven to create major fan backlash that takes years to recover any semblance of respect from us average working joes. Baseball suffered. NHL suffered. The NBA is going to find out the hard way if they keep dicking around. The NFL is the only American sports organization that could get away with a lockout and still have a large fanbase welcome them back with open arms.

A boycott from a non-touring professional organization is ludicrous. The list of names is eye-opening, but you know what? I don't hold any special affinity towards them, not like I would for a John Elway caliber player. American pool is not televised and the average pool player doesn't have a clue on who most of the top players are. I don't wear a Mika Immonen t-shirt. I don't have a Johnny Archer sports jersey.

It's been 15 years since a large contingent of these pros passed through Colorado on an organized tour (Camel Tour, 10-ball, I believe). They must have a short memory that the stands weren't exactly full, and that's when there were plenty of more pool halls open around here. Maybe these guys are blind that pool halls are closing all around the country and it's tough to find a place with 9-footers anymore. Don't you have to have some degree of public support to operate a boycott that anyone is going to care about?

All they are to us are peers in the sport. I would never have the opportunity to step out on the field of competition with John Elway or out on a court with Michael Jordan, but there's always a chance I could play a match against Van Boening on the same table in a competitive tournament. We can all admit that they are extremely talented players and respect them for that, but they are still just a bunch of peers in the sport that we all love to play.

I know that when a bunch of my peers are doing something I don't agree with, I'm going to criticize and disagree with them. If payment at the US Open has been that huge of an issue, then stop going instead of making a big claim of boycotting the event. 35 years of history would suggest payment has not been much of an issue as most poorly run businesses fail within 5 years.

 

[JamisonNeu]

Jay, this is where they might run into an issue with finding that next big promoter.

What WILL I get for investing my money in "pro" pool? Not what could I get, not what will I possibly get, "What WILL I get"? Where is the last guy like me? Common questions, and BS answers will not work on people that have real money they have it because they are not as dumb as the guy asking for the money...

Another thing to think about. If the private promoters like BB stop using the ABP. The leagues could also stop using them to entertain the amateur players. Then American pro pool would go the way of the dodo. The "pro" events hang by this fragile thread now, and they don't realize that this boycott can only serve to give the leagues more control over the pro's. Not give the pro's more control over themselves.

 

[Georgia Boy]

The questions I asked were also strictly financial. To reiterate, who has not been paid from the 2010 U.S. Open? Who was paid late and how late was it? It's been two days since I asked these questions on here SHAWN and no one has seen fit to respond to me, either publicly or via PM or e-mail. This non answer is an answer to me.

At this time my opinion is that you guys have picked the wrong target. Barry added over $60,000 to last year's Open (50K + 10K in entry fee money) and everyone DID get paid in a timely fashion, (92 out of 96 at the venue). I think that you and others may have allowed your emotions to over rule your common sense. No question Barry can have a volitile personality at times, but he remains a steadfast supporter of professional pool in America!

Better advice (no one asked me but I will offer it anyway) for the ABP is to band together and seek sponsors for your "Tour", either in existing events or those that you create. You guys actually could do something good for yourselves if you had some much needed direction. Attacking the one guy who has given you all countless paydays is not a smart business decision any way you cut it. I can tell you from personal experience it is far better to be paid late than not at all. Professional pool is a small market in America and to go after the biggest promoter is an unwise decision imo. Better to use your time and energy to help create a larger market share for your sport. I do find it quite interesting that professional pool seems to be thriving in the overseas markets. Maybe that fact has been lost on you guys.

Jay
As ever some good points in your post.

Do you think this could be resolved with a payment format agreeable to both sides, published in advance and then strictly adhered to by the Tournament?

As I understand it (I have gone back and read many articles from various people) it would appear Barry has had some 'unfortunate lapses' in doing what he's said he was going to do. I am not saying he was wrong in doing it, more that he seems to have been over eager to please with his original statements and that appears the main issue. From what I hear, Mika is still apparently owed 10k from the 10 Ball, that's not good it was 3 months ago! I look forward to this afternoons published interviews with Barry and Rodney to see what they have to say.

 

[Celtic]

I'm sorry you feel that way.
It is not jealousy, If were playing on tour and had to walk in our shoes you would understand. Please keep an open mind when you only see one side of the story ?

If you came up to Fort McMurray and did a month of seismic or another real job that normal working Americans do, 12-13 hours of hard work outdoors in a mosquito infested muskeg swamp for $20/hour you might realize how friggin soft you have it and run back to Barry Berman and say "were sorry, please keep running this event and don't make us get a real job!!!"

I mean FFS dude, you want sympathy? You are a pool player and you are talking to alot of people who actually WORK for a living!

Shane Lyons

 

[brandoncook26]

The questions I asked were also strictly financial. To reiterate, who has not been paid from the 2010 U.S. Open? Who was paid late and how late was it? It's been two days since I asked these questions on here SHAWN and no one has seen fit to respond to me, either publicly or via PM or e-mail. This non answer is an answer to me.

Jay, I asked them a question similar to this last night. Below is the string of posts. It seems they want the public to side with them, but aren't willing to give any further information to prove their point.

Barry says the players have been payed in full up to this point. The ABP says there are still monies owed.

Who are the players the ABP is claiming are still owed money?

At this time we are not at liberty to give that information out .

So your entire argument is financial, and your claim against Barry is that he doesn't pay the players, but as an organization you're not willing to give information about players not being payed? That seems like a very short sided stance with no facts to back up your claim. It seems like if you're not willing to prove your points then the entire argument is moot and baseless.

At this point they stopped responding to me. I also asked, along with Neil, if they would accept a smaller payout if it is guaranteed they would be paid on time. It seems that Barry overextends himself and this is the only viable solution. He cannot provide money that isn't there.

This question was asked three times and wasn't responded too. But, like DogsPlayingPool posted, their press release states they will not play in the tournament anyway (although I don't really believe a word). The questions still stand.

Are they willing to play, if not this year then in future opens, if the added money is a much smaller amount that Barry can afford?

Jay said BB put $60,000 added (50 + 10 entries) last year. He should just revoke the free entry for past champions and lower the added money to $25,000, the amount the ABP states is the minimum they would play for. That way Barry saves the $10k he would have paid in entries and only has to come out of pocket for $15,000 more instead of $50,000 more. Sounds like a way better deal for Barry. The players are killing themselves here. If I won, I would much rather get $40,000 delayed than get $20,000 on the spot.

 

[peteypooldude]

IMO some of our members are being very disrespectful .
Some of you act like they have other income.
IMO It is not wrong to want to be paid on time.
Show some manners. Why pit BB event against events that have always
paid in a timely manner? I am self employed and have been for years and
I can tell you now, If they dont have their money together when they put the car in my shop,you can best believe their a$$ is walking till they do so. If they make prior arrangements then that is different, but to surprise me
or make me worry about my money will only happen once. This is how I
make my living and support my family. From what I gather they are not trying to change his venue, they just need to be payed when they have
invested their money and time. If you have never supported yourself solely on pool then you have not walked in their shoes. If you work a steady 40
and always have,then chances are you have no clue JMHO


If the APB is wrong, Then offer some input other than Shut up and live with it.
As brought up previously, look at the top Sticky

 

[justadub]

If you came up to Fort McMurray and did a month of seismic or another real job that normal working Americans do, 12-13 hours of hard work outdoors in a mosquito infested muskeg swamp for $20/hour you might realize how friggin soft you have it and run back to Barry Berman and say "were sorry, please keep running this event and don't make us get a real job!!!"

I mean FFS dude, you want sympathy? You are a pool player and you are talking to slot of people who actually WORK for a living!

Oh my word, that is some funny stuff there... :rotflmao1:

I gotta remember FFS. That's a new one on me, and I love it.

 

[12ozCurl]

Jay said BB put $60,000 added (50 + 10 entries) last year. He should just revoke the free entry for past champions and lower the added money to $25,000, the amount the ABP states is the minimum they would play for. That way Barry saves the $10k he would have paid in entries and only has to come out of pocket for $15,000 more instead of $50,000 more. Sounds like a way better deal for Barry. The players are killing themselves here. If I won, I would much rather get $40,000 delayed than get $20,000 on the spot.

Thats the thing, they are not walking away empty handed. From the people I talked to, everyone that cashed took something home, and the balance was to be paid down the road.

 

[brandoncook26]

Thats the thing, they are not walking away empty handed. From the people I talked to, everyone that cashed took something home, and the balance was to be paid down the road.

Exactly. Jay said that 92 of 96 players were paid in full. I'm sure the remaining four were the top four finishers. When they came they didn't know they were going to place that high anyway and couldn't have been counting on that money. If they had spent money expecting to get the $40k prize then they are dumb.

Shawn mentioned spending $1500 to get there and play. If only 4 guys didn't get paid in full then why are there 40 guys on the list of boycotters? I can only assume we as a public are not getting all the facts. If we are getting all the facts, then this boycott is another in a long line of dumb moves for professional pool.

 

[FranCrimi]

Just to repost the press release with emphasis on the highlighted portions:




Clearly, from the official statement issued by the ABP attorney, this is not a threat of a boycott - it is a boycott. So any further discussion by the ABP with BB about finding an acceptable solution for the pros to play this year is apparently not an option to the association. It is clear from the ABP statement that if Barry posts all the prize money into escrow tomorrow, this year's event will still go on without them. If the players would have considered playing if they were satisfied by Barry they easily could have said so in the statement, but they did not. They flat out said they are not playing this year.

It would seem that if Barry did concede and post (even if it was a lower fund) then the ABP would consider this a victory, and probably should. But since their statement made it clear they will not compete this year anyway, the possibility of that happening is nil. What incentive does Barry have if the only players refusing to play have already declared they won't play this year anyway? Whether intentional or not, they have definitely drawn a line in the sand or painted themselves into a corner, depending on how you want to look at it.

Through ABPpros the association insists it is being genuine and sincere. This would necessarily apply to the orignial lawyer-issued statement. Well, either they are or they're not. For sure the leadership would have a problem competing now because they have a long list of rank and file members who have loyally followed them in this position.

This will be interesting.

Good observation about the wording. Being that the ABP is an international organization, I'm guessing that some of the players involved need months to plan out their schedules. They may have other options waiting for them during those dates and they have to make decisions. It wouldn't be fair to those players for the ABP to reach a last minute agreement with Barry when some of their members would have already committed to other arrangements for those dates. They probably had to set a deadline and this was it.

 

[BrooklynJay]

Does anyone but me find this discussion to be funny when the top post in this forum, a sticky, is:

USPPA Reno players, did they get paid?

 

[jay helfert]

I know for a fact at the masters in 2001 that a friend of mine left after his night match $800 in the money . Came back the next morning to be told he had to win 2 more matches to get to $600 winner because of low fan turn out. So barry didn't turn shisty after 9/11 he just got more blatant with his bullshit. The shit pool players will tolerate from other people just because they are part of the pool comunity always makes me chuckle. As always just MHO

That event was promoted and run by Barry's son Brady. It was NOT a Barry Behrman event!

 

[peteypooldude]

That event was promted and run by Barry's son Brady. It was NOT a Barry Behrman event!

Still, another blow for the players. When a sponsorship may only be a cue.
Jay, I would think you of all people could understand what a predicament
such as late pay without notice could cause. BB has done a lot for the
sport,and so has the players. Why not just advertise.... I will pay what I can when I can. At least it is known . Or add 25 K and post it.
I think it is more of a HOW DARE YOU.
I could be wrong, I have been in the past

 

[dardusm]

Actually what he was implying was that if those places don't extend credit to them, why should they be forced to extend credit to Barry? He wasn't implying that he wanted those places to extend him credit. You got the arguments mixed up.

I'm kind of on the fence about this. On one hand, the players should have a right to get paid on time. On the other hand, it would have been a better move to settle this with negotiations and compromises rather than a boycott that is apparently not very well organized or thought out.

From what it sounds like, it is near impossible for Barry to post the money up front. Demanding that it be so is futile.

The players should try to negotiate interest rates on owed monies if the money is not paid on time. This will give Barry incentive to pay on time while not making him come up with huge sums of cash out of nowhere.

Excellent post and good points. I think the solution would be something like a business arrangement to pay off invoices. Let's say everyone is paid in full except the top 4 by the end of the tournament, with a small balance say 10% is paid immediately to the top 4 to help cover their immediate expenses. The balance could be staggered over the next 30 days i.e. NET 30 type of transaction as stated earlier. If after that the money hasn't been paid then set an interest rate with all monies paid by 120 days or whatever the terms.

 

[vasilios]

Seems like if the ABP gets the tournament seeded this gives them the ability to leave as a group with 90% of the money.it makes it look like a forty player chop up rather than the standard two player chop.Berry should seed all the ABP players in their own bracket and let them eat each other.Berry should limit past champions to a 5 year exemption.

bill