Asian Pool players

[The Chinchilla]

These are great threads. I'm glad US players are getting a taste of things to come. Asia/Europe will own pool in a decade, there is simply no doubt about it. I personally think Asia will be head and shoulders above the rest.

The whole thing is, will the US care when this happens (if it hasn't already)? I don't think so. And there is the problem right there. Maybe pool as an olympic sport is out only chance.

 

[Rickw]

They show 9-ball and snooker on TV every night in asia. Whereas I feel like ESPN used to broadcast it as 3AM if they couldn't fill that time slot with an infomercial. When the movie The Color of Money came out, tons of people became interested in pool and started to fill the pool halls. Perhaps this is what is needed to get people interested in pool again.

I remember when Paul Brienza came to Great America in Sacramento and talked about the pros and cons of going with ESPN. That was a long time ago. Now in retrospect, I'm thinking it was a bad choice to go with ESPN. Oh well.

 

[Roadie]

The only thing that separates a USA player from a Chinese one is desire. All the top USA players have all the same skills as any other pool player on the planet. It does not matter if the Chinese player plays 24 hours a day he cannot learn any more than the top American player knows. But the difference is that the Chinese player embodies the desire to practice until they can't do it wrong.

 

[Jive]

Another thread is also discussing this issue of U.S Ranking in Pool sliding and i totally agree with them that the problem is Money!

If the income for playing pro pool is crap who wants to play? As past time perhaps, but professionally there's just not enough incentives in the U.S right now. It's alot easier to sponsor or train players in China or maybe even Philippines since the the standard of living is lower and so are the wages.

Let's do the maths. If the top prize for a pool tournament is say $25k, you get into top 8 you'll get $2k, top 4 you get $5k and runner up gets $10k.
$2 doesn't sound alot...but in China thats comfortable 8months or more salary...do the maths as you climb higher and you know why it may be worth fighting to be better. But what can you do for $2k in the U.S?
I made this scenario straight and simple, obviously there's more to calculating the whole expense stuff but i just want to give you a good idea on why more and more better athletes or sports pros are coming out of china now..
I'm guess STAR Brand table probably sells in a month what Brunswick does in a year, maybe ever more... I could be wrong so anybody with figures please post.

 

[Roadie]

Another thread is also discussing this issue of U.S Ranking in Pool sliding and i totally agree with them that the problem is Money!

If the income for playing pro pool is crap who wants to play? As past time perhaps, but professionally there's just not enough incentives in the U.S right now. It's alot easier to sponsor or train players in China or maybe even Philippines since the the standard of living is lower and so are the wages.

Let's do the maths. If the top prize for a pool tournament is say $25k, you get into top 8 you'll get $2k, top 4 you get $5k and runner up gets $10k.
$2 doesn't sound alot...but in China thats comfortable 8months or more salary...do the maths as you climb higher and you know why it may be worth fighting to be better. But what can you do for $2k in the U.S?
I made this scenario straight and simple, obviously there's more to calculating the whole expense stuff but i just want to give you a good idea on why more and more better athletes or sports pros are coming out of china now..
I'm guess STAR Brand table probably sells in a month what Brunswick does in a year, maybe ever more... I could be wrong so anybody with figures please post.

The is absolutely true and the cost of living ratio will not change any time soon. It will always cost much more for the players from industrialized western nations to live than it does for players from low-cost nations. And pool is something that does not require great expense to learn and practice.

So one would think that a Western player who is facing high expenses would be more motivated to finish higher in the tournament. One would think that they would do everything possible to insure that they were as sharp as possible in order to beat back the loads of players coming at them from impoverished nations. And perhaps in their minds that is just what they are doing. Perhaps the amount of Asian players who are capable of winning any given set against any given human is simply too much for the small contingent of American players who dare to try.

Perhaps it's only a question of the odds being too high against the USA players when in foreign events.

Then again you have events like the Derby City Classic and the US Open which are regularly won by Europeans and Filipinos who come over as a tiny percentage against hundreds of Americans.

So for now it seems as if desire is the key more than simply being overwhelmed with numbers.

Someone else mentioned gymnastics. In gymnastics the best and brightest MOVE to where the best gyms and coaches are if they are serious about competing on the national and international level. This applies to figure skating, track and field, diving and a host of other sports. Often the expenses for this come out of the family's pockets.

As the saying goes, "where there is a will, there is a way". American pool players have all the skill they need to succeed. Do they have the will? It was much easier when the rest of the world was afraid of them.

 

[Jive]

The only thing that separates a USA player from a Chinese one is desire. All the top USA players have all the same skills as any other pool player on the planet. It does not matter if the Chinese player plays 24 hours a day he cannot learn any more than the top American player knows. But the difference is that the Chinese player embodies the desire to practice until they can't do it wrong.

Absolutely spot on! There is only this much knowledge you can learn in pool, the rest is just determination and practice!

 

[Montana Mike]

Someone else mentioned gymnastics. In gymnastics the best and brightest MOVE to where the best gyms and coaches are if they are serious about competing on the national and international level. This applies to figure skating, track and field, diving and a host of other sports. Often the expenses for this come out of the family's pockets.
.

If my family was even a little supportive of my "pool habit" when I was young I would have been happy. To this day I don't think my mom or my dad ever saw me play. If pool is looked at so positively in Asia there should be champion players everywhere. If you truly love pool and were encouraged to play non-stop........that should say it all. I'm a little jealous. I just started playing quite a bit again and wish I could play even more. I hope money comes back to pool in the U.S soon but also hope that it becomes more acceptable to mainstream American society as more than a hobby.

 

[Johnnyt]

This has happened in just about every sport and game played in the US. It just took the other countries a little longer to catch up or pass us in pool. Why are most countries passing us? Because they are more hungry than most US players and practice more IMO. Johnnyt

 

[JAM]

This has happened in just about every sport and game played in the US. It just took the other countries a little longer to catch up or pass us in pool. Why are most countries passing us? Because they are more hungry than most US players and practice more IMO. Johnnyt

Part of it is it's expensive to live here in the U.S. The cost of living keeps going up, up, up, as is the debt. Unless you are a sponsored player, like Shane and a couple others -- sponsored with money and not product -- it is difficult to travel internationally and pay bills.

An Ameican pool pro can get a job, but if they work at a "normal" job, whatever that is, it may be difficult to take time off from work to travel every other month to a pool tournament. Employers like people who are dependable.

I realize everybody around the world has expenses, but it's hard to expend $3,500 to $4,000, as an example, when you are paying all the expenses out of your own pocket and attend a week-long tournament overseas when you have to win, place, or show to break even at most events. Of course, the BCA is supposed to step up to the plate in this department, but professional pool is an orphan in their eyes.

Several years ago, I wrote on this forum that more and more tournaments will be held overseas and that the existing lot of professional American players would diminish. We do have some great American players, but there's not a lot of new blood getting into professional pool and shooting competitively on a regular basis as there used to be. We have Mike Dechaine, Brandon Shuff, and, of course, Shane.

Also, there are just too many cool sports in the United States compared to other countries. Soccer will always be top sport in Brazil. Baseball will always shine brightly in Cuba as their national sport. Running seems to be a passion of many Ethiopians, and they know how to win. Pool will go on to become an Asian sport, and there will be a few of us aficionados who will enjoy sweating the pool matches, but we will continue to be in the minority, in more ways than one.

 

[Roadie]

Part of it is it's expensive to live here in the U.S. The cost of living keeps going up, up, up, as is the debt. Unless you are a sponsored player, like Shane and a couple others -- sponsored with money and not product -- it is difficult to travel internationally and pay bills.

An Ameican pool pro can get a job, but if they work at a "normal" job, whatever that is, it may be difficult to take time off from work to travel every other month to a pool tournament. Employers like people who are dependable.

I realize everybody around the world has expenses, but it's hard to expend $3,500 to $4,000, as an example, when you are paying all the expenses out of your own pocket and attend a week-long tournament overseas when you have to win, place, or show to break even at most events.

Several years ago, I wrote on this forum that more and more tournaments will be held overseas and that the existing lot of professional American players would diminish. We do have some great American players, but there's not a lot of new blood getting into professional pool and shooting competitively on a regular basis as there used to be. We have Mike Dechaine, Brandon Shuff, and, of course, Shane.

Also, there are just too many cool sports in the United States compared to other countries. Soccer will always be top sport in Brazil. Baseball will always shine brightly in Cuba as their national sport. Running seems to be a passion of many Ethiopians, and they know how to win. Pool will go on to become an Asian sport, and there will be a few of us aficionados who will enjoy sweating the pool matches, but we will continue to be in the minority, in more ways than one.

A lot of it is because of the lone wolf mentality in pool. People are staked in money games when they are kids and thrown away by backers when they stop producing. Pool players in the USA are still very much on an individual track. There are not really many coaches who are willing to invest in a player's success for a percentage of the winnings. And unfortunately the American professional player in general doesn't have a very good track record of honestly dealing with backers and sponsors. It is difficult to invest in an unstable resource.

Surely though with a shift in thinking on both the investment side and the player side this could change so that the goal would be as a group to bring back as much of the money as humanly possible. With some planning and connections expenses can be reduced, sponsors procured and opportunities maximized.

 

[JAM]

A lot of it is because of the lone wolf mentality in pool. People are staked in money games when they are kids and thrown away by backers when they stop producing. Pool players in the USA are still very much on an individual track. There are not really many coaches who are willing to invest in a player's success for a percentage of the winnings. And unfortunately the American professional player in general doesn't have a very good track record of honestly dealing with backers and sponsors. It is difficult to invest in an unstable resource.

Surely though with a shift in thinking on both the investment side and the player side this could change so that the goal would be as a group to bring back as much of the money as humanly possible. With some planning and connections expenses can be reduced, sponsors procured and opportunities maximized.

Too, when the pro players do go out and do exhibitions, provide lessons to young folk, hold charity events, et cetera, nobody -- and I mean NOBODY -- posts about it on this forum. Instead, the majority of posts about American professional players are that they are all out for themselves and nobody else. Hogwash! I've seen a lot of pro players donate their time for FREE, and these activities continue to go unnoticed.

It's more fun to bash Earl, et al., and write about what bums these pro players are than to recognize anything good they do for pool on American soil.

I am reminded of how some would literally rip a pro player apart on pool forums, as if they were the scum of the earth, and at the U.S. Open 9-Ball Championship, they are standing in line to get that pro player's autograph, the very one they wrote negatively about numerous times.

I guess I see both sides of the fence here, but I ain't buying this crap that American pro players don't give back. Sorry. Not this goat-roper!

 

[APA7]

Hello Jive iz your real name JOHN BARTON??

no doubt he's a hustler but in some ways guys who wants to play him for money seeing how "badly" he cues probably had it coming as well.
as for getting his ass kicked that i wouldn't know, i mean if he's playing someone terrible and that he can manipulate the game i'm sure he'll throw some balls away and let the game be level, say a race to 7 he'll probably win by 7-5? If he's playing someone of level standard then i think there shouldn't any any complaining . At the end of the day in terms of hustling there's probably the smart ones and the ones that's gonna be beat up, i reckon he's the smart one.

i'm not for his actions or against them, i'm not much of a gambler myself. but i do like that pool is a growing sport/past time here in china. I wish the same is happening in Singapore (where i'm from), but there's just too many restrictions - General interest, expensive rentals, selling alchohol...

Most pool halls here hire nice ladies to practice with you for a couple of bucks an hour on top of the rental fee, it's just their way of touting in a mild manner. So for most guys even if you don't hire their services, they make nice eye candies..not that it's a good thing since pool is all about concentration but it makes the mood lighter and in china this is by no means dodgy or even stereotyped as dodgy since they have shadier stuff...this practice actually came from PUBs/Clubs here, inorder to attract more male patrons they get nice ladies to sit around to drink with you to make u spend more, so i'd say it's evolving in the right direction

Please don't take what i say here as a generalisation of pool/snooker halls in China cos this is really not the case. China's too big and too diverse, so it's not the same everywhere. What i'm driving at is pool is a growing sport/past time in china and it is a very good thing for the sport on a global scale. Why do i say that? Well more equipments will be sold thats for sure, and the chinese throws big bills on cues and it's only just growing so in many ways this will support the U.S cue makers. As a note to cue makers, you also don't have to worry about copycats or mass production of your cue when you send them to China, the chinese don't fancy luxury or high end products being made in china as well, unless the quality is really good (read: JB Case and COACH brand bags). So even if someone's gonna copy that Gina or Black Boar cue and produce it in china for $100, the real buyers are still gonna look up the real deal. To them it's the prestige. You only have to see LVs, Gucci, Prada...how these items fly off the rack. Anybody who lives in Italy or Paris can vouch that all these high end retail stores have chinese flooding the place.

On top of that with the growing interest in China, more related sports brands will grow. See how STAR Brand has grown over the years in Snooker? With these guys making money more new brands are coming up, which means more sponsorship deals and more big prized tournaments. It's a win win for the sport.

I might have digressed from the main subject of this thread with what i wrote, point is if there's money to be made in this sport then more people will come into this sport and don't mind turning pro. Good Money means good players will practice harder and be better. It's no argument, i remember reading a post here lately about how Pros are always Poor or something along that line..it's a good point to support what i'm driving at.

 

[Pangit]

My thinking is the Asian players are the best in the world. Pool offers Anyone/Anywhere in the world a chance to crawl out of their domestic hole in even the most destitute countries. Pool is very similar to music, take your instrument and make a life. It's not often we get to see them venture away from thier immediate area and because of that allot may think they are not ask good as the pinoys, in reality I've heard quite the opposite.

Think about an ASIA vs the WORLD "Mosconi" Cup? What team would win? Matches over the next decade in that sort of situation, I'd hang my money on the Asians? I'm not trying to disrespect any race. I'm "Asian" myself, although of the Native American variety.

If I were in Vegas or Macao, and in a gambling frame of mind, I'd be betting on the Asian's.

 

[JAM]

Think about an ASIA vs the WORLD "Mosconi" Cup? What team would win? Matches over the next decade in that sort of situation, I'd hang my money on the Asians? I'm not trying to disrespect any race. I'm "Asian" myself, although of the Native American variety.

If I were in Vegas or Macao, and in a gambling frame of mind, I'd be betting on the Asian's.

I thought you were Hindi living in Philippines?

Indian Americans are Americans who have ancestors who are born or are native to India. To make a clear distinction and difference between Indians of Asian origin and Indians "named as" who are Indigenous peoples of the Americas, the U.S. Census Bureau popularized the term Asian Indian to avoid confusion with "American Indian." -- Wikipedia

I am part Native American, as my ancestors are Cherokee from North Carolina.

 

[Roadie]

Too, when the pro players do go out and do exhibitions, provide lessons to young folk, hold charity events, et cetera, nobody -- and I mean NOBODY -- posts about it on this forum. Instead, the majority of posts about American professional players are that they are all out for themselves and nobody else. Hogwash! I've seen a lot of pro players donate their time for FREE, and these activities continue to go unnoticed.

It's more fun to bash Earl, et al., and write about what bums these pro players are than to recognize anything good they do for pool on American soil.

I am reminded of how some would literally rip a pro player apart on pool forums, as if they were the scum of the earth, and at the U.S. Open 9-Ball Championship, they are standing in line to get that pro player's autograph, the very one they wrote negatively about numerous times.

I guess I see both sides of the fence here, but I ain't buying this crap that American pro players don't give back. Sorry. Not this goat-roper!

There was nothing in my post about whether American players give back or not. However the sentiment you bring up about there being a certain love/hate relationship between the fans on this billiard forum and the American professional is quite accurate. I also believe that the same person who would so freely disrespect a player or professional players in general on this forum is the same person who defers to them with respect and awe when that player is in their presence. Unfortunately this dichotomy seems to be quite prevalent in our culture where we alternately revere and revile our celebrities. We cheer their success while we revel in their downfall.

And of course negativity sells more than positive news.

I make my living off the Evening News
Just give me something-something I can use
People love it when you lose,
They love dirty laundry - Don Henley

People expect other people to be good. So giving back is seen as something players should do anyway as part of their job. Part of the reason that their efforts go unnoticed is because they don't have a public relations machine working for them and what they do is generally not a consistent effort but instead is sporadic one-off events. Again this falls under the rubrik of their being more ability when working together as a team rather than individually.

Here is an idea to exemplify my point. What if Team America held their own charity event designed to both raise money for themselves and to raise money for various charities in conjunction with the US Open? Imagine that there were five top player who make up Team America and they planned five stops in the month before the event. They would get $10 a game and take on all challengers and when a challenger would win a game that person would get a ticket, whoever collects five tickets by beating each player one game would be entered into a drawing to win a free entry into the US Open and be allowed to hang out with Team America during the Open. Five players five tables 4 hours. X-percentage goes to the Team America fund, x-percentage to the charity of choice, and of course x-percentage to fund the US Open entry fee.

This becomes an annual event that fans look forward to and becomes a standing room only type deal. How about that? The pros get to give back, they get to earn some money and they get consistent promotion.

And there is a bottomless well of similar things that professional players can do don't require much more than their presence and willingness to interact with the crowd. Allison Fisher used to have a booth at the APA nationals. She had times listed as to when she would be at the booth. When she came to it a line would form that would not end for an hour with people buying Allison's autographed photos and other stuff just to get a picture with her. And fans paid her hundreds of dollars a person just to attend her instructional clinics.

 

[Roadie]

Think about an ASIA vs the WORLD "Mosconi" Cup? What team would win? Matches over the next decade in that sort of situation, I'd hang my money on the Asians? I'm not trying to disrespect any race. I'm "Asian" myself, although of the Native American variety.

If I were in Vegas or Macao, and in a gambling frame of mind, I'd be betting on the Asian's.

It would be a toss up. For one thing the Mosconi cup is comprised of short sets which literally any top professional is capable of winning against any other top professional.

Seems as if you are forgetting all the accomplishments of foreigners in Asia. Many non-asians have won and placed very high in Asian tournaments in the past several years with most of them being European.