Is Dominant Eye Really What's Important?

JoeW said:
Here is the way I see it.

Playing pool is not like shooting a gun or throwing darts. It requires binocular vision to see the off center spot on the cue ball to hit on a line through the cue ball to the object ball. Sending a cue ball at an angle from the straight ahead line is best seen with binocular vision. Calculating the effects of throw based on some chosen line and the required cue tip placement is best addressed with two eyes.

My brain has accommodated to the idea that one of my eyes sees better (differently) than the other eye. My brain operates from the center line of the body and has learned to adjust its calculations based on the disparity between my eyes. That is to say my brain tends to have a preference for one eye over the other and is able to make some exquisite calculations about where things are located relative to other things given the inequality of visual ability. Simply put, the brain knows what to do with unequal eyes and demonstrates this by what others call visual dominance.

Therefore, when I play pool I center the stick on my chin and let the brain make all of its usual calculations. This is the way it prefers to operate because over time it has learned that this is the best way for me to locate things “out there.”

To place my dominant eye over the cue is to defeat the natural way my brain prefers to work.

In my experience the brain wants a benchmark from which to make all those calculations. It is for this reason that I have trained myself to always place my chin over the cue stick and have my eyes in the same place for each shot. To do otherwise is to add extra complications.
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Yes, I never understood the shooting comparison either.

And I think we are saying the same thing in terms of benchmarking. It's at the root of improving as a player and remembering the shots. Otherwise you are staring without an accurate frame of reference each shot.

Lou Figueroa
 
Ratta said:
Well choosen words Dave!
Meanwhile i prefer furthermore teachin my students to align that way, that they settin themselves up straight into the *shotline* -so that they are also perfectly aligned if they re down going down into the shot. Til now 3 students changed it that way and are after being surprised very thxful and for sure also much more confident. Even the shotmakin increased, because they now see the shot better. Bringin this together with "placing" the head into the right position is a great thing (after worked out^^).

lg
Ingo
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It's possible that teaching them their dominate eye position is just giving them a consistent head position. That would certainly lead to improvement for someone who was all over the place on that.

Lou Figueroa
 
lfigueroa said:
Personally, I don't understand the switching eyeball phenomena, but I would guess this: when you start switch eyeballs you're probably switching something else (feet, shoulders, head height, motion) to make that happen. And maybe that is where your success lies.

Lou Figueroa
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This is actually true. My grip hand changes, I know that. I have to hold the cue slightly different over my right eye to stroke the ball straight. But I don't understand why its a temporary fix to why things look different. I do the dominate eye tests and it really does switch. I've only heard of one other person who has this problem.
 
three views without moving a muscle

My right eye is only mildly dominant. When I am focusing on some activities I work hard to get more information from one eye or the other than I normally do.

Some things just maintaining my right eye dominant and ignoring input from the left eye works fine. Slow fire with a pistol at a stationary target is a fine example. Other things like pool, shotgunning, and shooting moving or multiple targets with a pistol I need both eyes working with my right eye maintaining the greater input and the left eye filling in the extra information needed. Shooting benchrest with a set of windflags out required strengthening the weak eye so that I could read windflags with the weak eye while looking through a 36x or stronger scope with the strong eye. If all of this sounds confusing it can be. Sometimes my eyes refuse to give me the vision I want and I can't see the line for the simplest shots in pool. I think this may explain some of the strange misses by top players, they fail to recognize that their vision has changed between binocular and strong eye which almost everyone's vision does, and their aim itself is badly off because they are seeing differently than usual without realizing it.

Sometimes when exercising my vision I can see three different perspectives without moving a muscle; strong eye dominant, weak eye dominant, and binocular vision. A target twenty feet off will appear to move to three different positions.

One thing that all of this talk seems to overlook is that the ideal eye position is often unachievable. When we can set up exactly as we please our eyes are in a certain position above the cue stick including the height we prefer and the distance from the cue ball. This is the perfect eye position for us. However in the real world of playing pool our eyes are often further back from the cue ball than we really want them, maybe higher or lower. Often a little to one side. While finding the perfect eye position has a lot of value like other basics, nobody would ever rise above banger level if they couldn't make a ball when their eyes aren't in the perfect position. Over time we learn to adjust when our eyes are out of position. This is one reason that just shooting drills and set shots will never make a finished pool player.

Hu
 
lfigueroa said:
BB, I thing it is also possible that the guys who have the cue off to one side do it just because they have found that that alignment gives them a real straight, accurate, and powerful stroke. IOW, it has more to do with body mechanics than sighting. Whatever it looks like they have come to accommodate it in favor of being able to stab balls in from anywhere on the table.

Take the example of a side arm player. Now maybe he started shooting that way because he started out playing when smaller, or maybe it just feels natural. In either case, dominate eyeball probably had nothing to do with it -- it was all about the stroke.

Lou Figueroa
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Now we disagree.

Next time you are at the table do what I described - move your head over just a few inches from where you normally place it on a long straight in shot. The image will be all screwed up. I suppose it is possible that you could figure out a way to play from this new position and after a while your brain would compensate for this, but I really don't think that is too likely.

I don't see how moving your head a few inches on either side of the cue would benefit your stoke. I would imagine that 99% of players place there head in the spot where they see the shot the best. At any rate, I don't understand how guys can spend a lot of time worrying about this.
 
mine switch constantly.... anything close in (cueball) and my brain wants to use the right eye.... the object ball, the pocket, the cueball path, desired leave spot, etc are usually outside of that range and my brain wants to use the left eye. It is not an easy fix.... I do better with a long visualization process, with a lot of walking around and rocking back and forth behind the cb, and then a fairly quick, confident psr and stroke.... the stroke is doing what I want it to, as is the english, but that doesn't mean I'm delivering it on the right line. Very frustrating.
 
ShootingArts said:
My right eye is only mildly dominant. When I am focusing on some activities I work hard to get more information from one eye or the other than I normally do.

Some things just maintaining my right eye dominant and ignoring input from the left eye works fine. Slow fire with a pistol at a stationary target is a fine example. Other things like pool, shotgunning, and shooting moving or multiple targets with a pistol I need both eyes working with my right eye maintaining the greater input and the left eye filling in the extra information needed. Shooting benchrest with a set of windflags out required strengthening the weak eye so that I could read windflags with the weak eye while looking through a 36x or stronger scope with the strong eye. If all of this sounds confusing it can be. Sometimes my eyes refuse to give me the vision I want and I can't see the line for the simplest shots in pool. I think this may explain some of the strange misses by top players, they fail to recognize that their vision has changed between binocular and strong eye which almost everyone's vision does, and their aim itself is badly off because they are seeing differently than usual without realizing it.

Sometimes when exercising my vision I can see three different perspectives without moving a muscle; strong eye dominant, weak eye dominant, and binocular vision. A target twenty feet off will appear to move to three different positions.

One thing that all of this talk seems to overlook is that the ideal eye position is often unachievable. When we can set up exactly as we please our eyes are in a certain position above the cue stick including the height we prefer and the distance from the cue ball. This is the perfect eye position for us. However in the real world of playing pool our eyes are often further back from the cue ball than we really want them, maybe higher or lower. Often a little to one side. While finding the perfect eye position has a lot of value like other basics, nobody would ever rise above banger level if they couldn't make a ball when their eyes aren't in the perfect position. Over time we learn to adjust when our eyes are out of position. This is one reason that just shooting drills and set shots will never make a finished pool player.

Hu
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A most excellent point re: perfect eye position being difficult to consistently reproduce under real life conditions.

I also agree with your point about drills, but that deserves its own thread.

Lou Figueroa
 
With all due respect you clearly dont have enough understanding of the subject to make any of theses assumptions.

To use a gun analogy that applies, imagine you have a gun that has two seperate sets of sights and you never know which set are the ones sighted in to that gun prior to taking a shot. Plus, it's typical that the correct set of sights may change on thier own at any given point or before any particular shot with out your knowledge.

What kind of a sniper do you think you would be given those conditions?

This is the issue many people have and its fully independant of any other issues related to set up or PSR.
 
BasementDweller said:
Now we disagree.

Next time you are at the table do what I described - move your head over just a few inches from where you normally place it on a long straight in shot. The image will be all screwed up. I suppose it is possible that you could figure out a way to play from this new position and after a while your brain would compensate for this, but I really don't think that is too likely.

I don't see how moving your head a few inches on either side of the cue would benefit your stoke. I would imagine that 99% of players place there head in the spot where they see the shot the best. At any rate, I don't understand how guys can spend a lot of time worrying about this.
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I've done this and it's not that big a deal. When Geno was in town I showed him I could shoot with my cue under either eye.

Lou Figueroa
 
RRfireblade said:
With all due respect you clearly dont have enough understanding of the subject to make any of theses assumptions.

To use a gun analogy that applies, imagine you have a gun that has two seperate sets of sights and you never know which set are the ones sighted in to that gun prior to taking a shot. Plus, it's typical that the correct set of sights may change on thier own at any given point or before any particular shot with out your knowledge.

What kind of a sniper do you think you would be given those conditions?

This is the issue many people have and its fully independant of any other issues related to set up or PSR.
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I know enough to know that shooting a rifle has nothing to do with hitting a cue ball with a cue stick :-)

Get back to me when we start using sights to play pool and your cue has a trigger.

Lou Figueroa
 
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lfigueroa said:
I know enough to know that shooting a rifle has nothing to do with hitting a cue ball with a cue stick :-)

Lou Figueroa
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I know. Other than Hu's excellent post which focused more on the difficulties in achieving a perfect eye position when shooting pool, the next time I see a comparison between shooting a rifle and shooting pool, I'll scream!

They have nothing to do with each other, either setup-wise or execution-wise, related to eye position. In rifle shooting, you are looking *through* the shot line. (That is, you are actually looking through a scope, or looking down through two iron sights, lining them up on the target and looking through that line to the target -- all done with a single eye.) In pool, your head and eyes (plural) are *above* the sightline, no matter how low you go, even if you place the cue right under one of your eyes. In pool, you can only *perceive* the shotline; you are not looking through it. And even then, unless you close one of your eyes and keep it closed the entire time, you are perceiving the shotline with both eyes. Perhaps one eye's information is more relevant than the other, but make no mistake, both pictures are being received and "meshed together" by the brain.

But unlike rifle shooting, pool (or any cue sport) has the additional execution factor -- being able to deliver the cue accurately down that perceived shotline. That, IMHO, is worthy of much more focus than "solely" head/eye position.

-Sean
 
lfigueroa said:
I don't understand. How, if you use a PSR to produce a consistent set up -- which presumably put's your head and your eyes in a consistent position -- do your eyes not give you a consistent view?

Lou Figueroa
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No. My situation is frustrating. I'm right eye dominant, but my technique places my left eye over the cue. My head shifts a little to the right out of comfort. If I cock my head to the left (which moves my right eye into a dominant position, my neck gets sore--- so it always shifts back to the right.

So what happens is my left eye gives me the sight line well but my dominant right eye gives my brain the perception of center ball (which is a parallax view). So between unwanted deflection and right spin, it poses a challenge.

I used to shoot WAY better cutting to the left as to the right -- now I've learned to adjust my head position based on the shot to give me a better, more consistent view. I'm pretty equal now in either direction.

PSR doesn't HAVE to include your eyes in the exact position every time. A solid PSR could involve having the same procedure to finding the correct eye position every time, based on the shot.

Please don't take this as an "aiming" reference, but on thicker shots left, both my eyes are to the right of the CTEL plane. To the right, they're to the left of the CTEL plane. I have a method of finding the exact spot in either direction so I'm consistent from shot-to-shot. On thin shots, I have another procedure. That equates to a solid PSR.

I don't think it's accurate to say "if your eyes aren't in the exact same spot on every shot it's a poor PSR." If some people followed that notion, they'd NEVER make a ball consistently.

I think the thread is a valid thread worthy of discussion -- and one I find very interesting. I think many would find that the opinions posted in the thread will likely match how the poster sees for himself/herself (i.e. your original post / opinion is mirrored off how you play and see-- which formulates your opinion on the subject).

Just like no one believes in ghosts until you see one-- and then no one believes in what you say, because they haven't experienced it for themselves. I'd bet the world if I could switch eyes with you, you'd say "HOW THE HELL CAN YOU EVEN MAKE A BALL!??!?!"

We all believe what we see and how we see it. I went trap shooting for the first time last year. I felt like I couldn't miss and almost didn't understand the sport of it. Maybe what's a handicap in one sport is a benefit in another.
 
alstl said:
I have a cataract on my dominant eye. Trust me, it makes a difference.
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Oh yeah. Every once in a while I'll have a problem with a contact lens fogging up. It's brutal. Can't imagine a cataract.

Lou Figueroa
 
sfleinen said:
I know. Other than Hu's excellent post which focused more on the difficulties in achieving a perfect eye position when shooting pool, the next time I see a comparison between shooting a rifle and shooting pool, I'll scream!

They have nothing to do with each other, either setup-wise or execution-wise, related to eye position. In rifle shooting, you are looking *through* the shot line. (That is, you are actually looking through a scope, or looking down through two iron sights, lining them up on the target and looking through that line to the target -- all done with a single eye.) In pool, your head and eyes (plural) are *above* the sightline, no matter how low you go, even if you place the cue right under one of your eyes. In pool, you can only *perceive* the shotline; you are not looking through it. And even then, unless you close one of your eyes and keep it closed the entire time, you are perceiving the shotline with both eyes. Perhaps one eye's information is more relevant than the other, but make no mistake, both pictures are being received and "meshed together" by the brain.

But unlike rifle shooting, pool (or any cue sport) has the additional execution factor -- being able to deliver the cue accurately down that perceived shotline. That, IMHO, is worthy of much more focus than "solely" head/eye position.

-Sean
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Sean, you said it much better (and less flippantly) than I did :-)

Lou Figueroa
 
SpiderWebComm said:
No. My situation is frustrating. I'm right eye dominant, but my technique places my left eye over the cue. My head shifts a little to the right out of comfort. If I cock my head to the left (which moves my right eye into a dominant position, my neck gets sore--- so it always shifts back to the right.

So what happens is my left eye gives me the sight line well but my dominant right eye gives my brain the perception of center ball (which is a parallax view). So between unwanted deflection and right spin, it poses a challenge.

I used to shoot WAY better cutting to the left as to the right -- now I've learned to adjust my head position based on the shot to give me a better, more consistent view. I'm pretty equal now in either direction.

PSR doesn't HAVE to include your eyes in the exact position every time. A solid PSR could involve having the same procedure to finding the correct eye position every time, based on the shot.

Please don't take this as an "aiming" reference, but on thicker shots left, both my eyes are to the right of the CTEL plane. To the right, they're to the left of the CTEL plane. I have a method of finding the exact spot in either direction so I'm consistent from shot-to-shot. On thin shots, I have another procedure. That equates to a solid PSR.

I don't think it's accurate to say "if your eyes aren't in the exact same spot on every shot it's a poor PSR." If some people followed that notion, they'd NEVER make a ball consistently.

I think the thread is a valid thread worthy of discussion -- and one I find very interesting. I think many would find that the opinions posted in the thread will likely match how the poster sees for himself/herself (i.e. your original post / opinion is mirrored off how you play and see-- which formulates your opinion on the subject).

Just like no one believes in ghosts until you see one-- and then no one believes in what you say, because they haven't experienced it for themselves. I'd bet the world if I could switch eyes with you, you'd say "HOW THE HELL CAN YOU EVEN MAKE A BALL!??!?!"

We all believe what we see and how we see it. I went trap shooting for the first time last year. I felt like I couldn't miss and almost didn't understand the sport of it. Maybe what's a handicap in one sport is a benefit in another.
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OK, I get it.

But, but... if the issue is that you end up with your head too far to the right, instead of adjusting your head, post PSR, couldn't you modify your footwork, or the starting orientation of your cue stick to "naturally" achieve the head position you seek?

Funny you mention trap shooting. My first few months in Montana, my sponsor took me out skeet shooting and when it was my turn (first time ever shooting a 12 gauge), I got like six out of the first eight. He couldn't believe it. I told him it was just like shooting wing shots on a pool table.

Lou Figueroa
so it is the same!
I kid, I kid
 
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cleary said:
My dominate eye changes and its very annoying. When I get down and its different... I just don't feel right. I can still hit (I think) the center of the cueball but the cueball does not travel along the same path I thought it would. In fact at that point, a straight line is not straight anymore.

Of course, if its not a problem with you it may sound silly but it sucks for me.

For instance. I was playing someone last night some 1pocket. Getting 10-6, I've never ended up loser in this game against this guy. We were even after 4 games when my eye switched. Its not easy to tell whats going on but things just don't really feel right and thinning balls and what not, its hard to tell exactly if things are working the way I wanted. It took me to being stuck 3 games to realize I need to switch to my right eye. I'm 85% left eye dominate so I try to 'shoot through it' when possible. As soon as I switched eyes, I won 3 straight games and back to even.
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cleary
I know your a decent player so excuse me fo my unqualified suggestion.
It sounds like you head hasn't found a consistent spot.

Maybe not so but the reason I say that is this experiment. Do the "form a triangle with
the thumbs/forefingers dominate eye test thing." Close one eye then the other and all that stuff.
But now keep your hands up there and move the triangle left to right and back with both eyes open.
You'll see why I said earlier dominate eye tests need to be done several times to confirm.
Depending on how your triangle goes up also
influences the results.
 
JoeyA Pupils Theory

I think the Dominant Eye theory is important to some people for increased accuracy in sighting.

The JoeyA theory may be shot full of holes but it is simply that some people who have wider faces (more distance between pupils) have a greater need for using their dominant eye.

Smaller heads (narrower diameter between pupils) do not have the same need.

If a person has more than 2 1/2" between center of pupils, they should attempt to aim with their dominant eye to see if they can increase their ability to sight more perfectly.

----------------------------

The old saying about you can get used to anything if you do it long enough is very true but I like trying new things. Dominant eye works all of the time for me, even when I use manual CTE. ;-)

Candidly, I think those who are blessed with 2 1/4" center to center pupils have the most perfect distance between pupils for playing pool.

Pull out those six-guns boys. :outtahere::outtahere:
 
JoeyA said:
I think the Dominant Eye theory is important to some people for increased accuracy in sighting.

The JoeyA theory may be shot full of holes but it is simply that some people who have wider faces (more distance between pupils) have a greater need for using their dominant eye.

Smaller heads (narrower diameter between pupils) do not have the same need.

If a person has more than 2 1/2" between center of pupils, they should attempt to aim with their dominant eye to see if they can increase their ability to sight more perfectly.

----------------------------

The old saying about you can get used to anything if you do it long enough is very true but I like trying new things. Dominant eye works all of the time for me, even when I use manual CTE. ;-)

Candidly, I think those who are blessed with 2 1/4" center to center pupils have the most perfect distance between pupils for playing pool.

Pull out those six-guns boys. :outtahere::outtahere:
Click to expand...


I just came to discover that this is Joey's idea of a practical joke.

A few moments ago I went into the bathroom with a ruler and stood there like an idiot, looking at my reflection in the mirror with a ruler running across my face and it dawned on me: "Sum-of-a-be-atch. He got me."

Nice one, Joey :-)

Lou Figueroa
 
gotta know

lfigueroa said:
I just came to discover that this is Joey's idea of a practical joke.

A few moments ago I went into the bathroom with a ruler and stood there like an idiot, looking at my reflection in the mirror with a ruler running across my face and it dawned on me: "Sum-of-a-be-atch. He got me."

Nice one, Joey :-)

Lou Figueroa
Click to expand...

You gotta know a nice guy like that just has to have a mean streak somewhere.

I thought about the ruler thing myself! :D

Also thought about making a crack about Earl, I figure he might be an inch and an eighth between the pupils!

Hu
 
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