A lot of low opinions on 9 ball, me included, what about 8?
- Thread starter Oregonmeds
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Thanks for all the opinions. I'm not new to either game, I'm over 40 and a solid 7 at both even without much of any disciplined practice. I don't play any 7' bar boxes mostly 8' and some 9. Just finally got my own 9' table...
I think I should have been more clear about why I don't like 9 ball, it's mostly because it's become a tournament standard more popular than 8 ball and I mostly play weekly small tournaments, but at the same time races have been dropped to 3 sometimes even 2 with a big field and limited time.
I play just local fun tournaments around $100 max payout, and with a race to 2 or 3 and with slop counting and random safety's working out your opponent didn't even plan for, or 9 ball slop or whatever, and alternating break, any schmuck can knock the best players down it's not as consitent as it should be who places in tournaments like these and can be down right absurd being knocked out by obviously lesser players because of the short races. The best players come out on top more often than not, but any of the better players can get knocked out of the competition just due to a couple flukes by any player at any level. At least a few of the best players are knocked out this way every night I play.
I guess my beef is more with time constraints and short races making 9 ball inferior to 8, but there's nothing you can really do about those time constraints or short races. Tournaments here can only start after most people are off work, and often even races to just 2 end well past midnight if there's a good turn out, any race to 3 is guaranteed to go to around 1am and nobody is running tournaments around here with longer races because of all this even on the weekends.
Because of all this I try to make more 8 ball than 9 ball tournaments but the number of 8 ball tournaments has gone down. There is only one place quite a few miles from me that does any straight pool tournaments, and it's too far for me to make it and it runs in the mornings on sunday when I'm never awake yet anyway, and no place does any 14.1 or anything else anywhere around here.
The only solution I can see to this sloppy stupid short race is get rid of 9 ball as the standard, at least with 8 your opponent has to be good enough to actually make the balls in the pockets he intended and make the 8, can't just get lucky. But 8 ball seems to still be loosing popularity in small tournaments. 10 ball would be better, but again there are those time contraints and you just can't change that... Except weekends but then most people arent patient enough or able to spend a whole day on one tournament around here I guess, so they don't run them like that.
I enjoy playing 9 ball, and I enjoy watching it on tv, just don't like it as the local tournament standard and wish it would go away for that especially with anything less than a race to 5. And a race to 2 is no race, it's barely better than a coin toss or lagging for the win.
I think I should have been more clear about why I don't like 9 ball, it's mostly because it's become a tournament standard more popular than 8 ball and I mostly play weekly small tournaments, but at the same time races have been dropped to 3 sometimes even 2 with a big field and limited time.
I play just local fun tournaments around $100 max payout, and with a race to 2 or 3 and with slop counting and random safety's working out your opponent didn't even plan for, or 9 ball slop or whatever, and alternating break, any schmuck can knock the best players down it's not as consitent as it should be who places in tournaments like these and can be down right absurd being knocked out by obviously lesser players because of the short races. The best players come out on top more often than not, but any of the better players can get knocked out of the competition just due to a couple flukes by any player at any level. At least a few of the best players are knocked out this way every night I play.
I guess my beef is more with time constraints and short races making 9 ball inferior to 8, but there's nothing you can really do about those time constraints or short races. Tournaments here can only start after most people are off work, and often even races to just 2 end well past midnight if there's a good turn out, any race to 3 is guaranteed to go to around 1am and nobody is running tournaments around here with longer races because of all this even on the weekends.
Because of all this I try to make more 8 ball than 9 ball tournaments but the number of 8 ball tournaments has gone down. There is only one place quite a few miles from me that does any straight pool tournaments, and it's too far for me to make it and it runs in the mornings on sunday when I'm never awake yet anyway, and no place does any 14.1 or anything else anywhere around here.
The only solution I can see to this sloppy stupid short race is get rid of 9 ball as the standard, at least with 8 your opponent has to be good enough to actually make the balls in the pockets he intended and make the 8, can't just get lucky. But 8 ball seems to still be loosing popularity in small tournaments. 10 ball would be better, but again there are those time contraints and you just can't change that... Except weekends but then most people arent patient enough or able to spend a whole day on one tournament around here I guess, so they don't run them like that.
I enjoy playing 9 ball, and I enjoy watching it on tv, just don't like it as the local tournament standard and wish it would go away for that especially with anything less than a race to 5. And a race to 2 is no race, it's barely better than a coin toss or lagging for the win.
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it was a sign of the time. i doubt we'll ever see 14.1 on tv in the states any times soon
What do you mean, "...get rid of 9 ball as the standard..."? There is no "standard", it's all market driven. Unfortunately (IMHO) 9 ball is more popular among folks that want to play/throw tournaments. Not sure why (probably because gamblers prefer it--it's easier to handicap), but it is, that's why pool rooms throw more 9 ball events than 8 ball ones. When I started playing seriously back in the 1980s, most places held weekly 8 ball tourneys, especially bar boxes. Seemed like after TCOM came out, all the rooms started holding more 9 ball tourneys and the 8 ball ones dried up. It was amazing, seemed like everyone was a 9 ball player overnight, it became the mark of professionalism at our low level. Leagues helped put 8 ball into a box too, giving alot of folks the impression that it's more of an amateur game, which is unfortunate. 8 ball has always been "my game", but since 1989 or so, I've probably played 10 times more 9 ball tourneys because 8 ball tourneys are so rare.
8 ball falls into the 14.1/One Pocket family of games, and 9 ball is in the rotation family (with straight rotation, 6 ball, 10 ball, etc.). These two families stress different strategies, but playing well in both is of course possible and important. Rotation players need to move the rock around more on the table and have to stroke firmly a little more often, the other family needs to be adept at bunting around and working in traffic with light, precise touch, like kill shots, drag shots, etc. I think that's why rotation players think of 8 ball as an amateur game and 8 ball players complain about the "luck" factor of rotation games. We tend to prefer one family over the other....
This is exactly what I'm talking about, and yes you can get a safe out of it. You call a shot and miss, leaving no shot on the required object ball (except say a kick). This is a typical two-way shot where you play position on the next ball in such a way that if you miss the ball you were shooting at you leave your opponent hooked on that ball that you missed while having obtained position on the next ball had you made the shot. It's not that unusual, it happens all the time. The opponent must take the balls in position UNLESS you made the called ball in a wrong pocket or pocketed another ball on the shot. But if you simply miss and no balls fall, your opponent is stuck with the table as is. At least according to World Standardized Rules (WPA).
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By 9 ball as standard I'm referring to how the majority of tournaments have gone to 9 ball. You yourself said "Seemed like after TCOM came out, all the rooms started holding more 9 ball tourneys and the 8 ball ones dried up. It was amazing, seemed like everyone was a 9 ball player overnight"
That's what I meant by 9 becoming sort of the defacto tournament standard game at least in my area like yours, 8 ball tournaments have almost dissappeared and I think it's so much a better game especially with such short races. And I agree with those who said 8 would be just as enjoyable for tv if not more so than 9. I think it would gain more viewers to see the game they know and played already.
I'd sure like to see more of either or anything on tv actually, coverage is super sparse these days so much so that I don't even search for it in tv listings any more, so I end up only seeing what's posted online. Half of that you have to listen to a chinese or japanese or whatever announcer over the top of the english and that's really driving me nuts too. I won't watch pay per view or pay for the games online either, first off it's a luxury I can't afford and secondly they should be making enough money on the advertisements it's all one big commercial for chalk off and sardo tight racks and olhausen and diamond and cuetec and brunswick and etc etc etc. Sometimes I almost want to stab someone in the neck with each chalk off commercial.
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To me, the stand-out characteristic of 8 ball is that the optimum strategy depends so much on the skill level of the players. For players at one level, the best strategy may be total offense; go up a levels or so, and the golden rule is not to start a run unless you are sure you can finish it; iincrease the skill levels still further, and you will not come out on top unless you go back on the offensive.
In some ways, this is the beauty of 8ball: It is a great game to play for players of all levels. But it has its drawbacks.
One drawback is that it is difficult for an 8ball player to pick up the more advanced tactics. There is no one 'best way' of playing, that can be learned and then passed on to others - the 'best way' depends on the abilities of the players.
As a result, although there are 10s of millions of people who play 8 ball, I am not sure that I agree with earlier posts suggesting that they will necessarily understand 8 ball, in the sense of really appreciating what a good 8 ball payer is doing.
Or as one pro said (somewhat more succinctly), 8 ball is the most misunderstood billiard game there is.
Contrast this with 9 / 10 ball, where as long as you can count and hear what the commentators are saying, you will be able to follow what the player is trying to do. (I am not suggesting that a casual viewer will pick up on every nuance, but this is true of any spectator sport and is not a problem.)
The other big thing going against 8-ball for a wide audience is that at a high level it is probably best played on a bar box. On a bigger table, there is too much space and too little conjestion. As a consequence, on a big table the game can lose much its character and become a little bit too easy (at least for someone with a straight stroke). But as The Renfro pointed out, small tables just do not work well on television.
So while I have sympathy with the critics of 9 ball, and to a lesser extent 10 ball, I really don't see any better pool games for the television age.
In some ways, this is the beauty of 8ball: It is a great game to play for players of all levels. But it has its drawbacks.
One drawback is that it is difficult for an 8ball player to pick up the more advanced tactics. There is no one 'best way' of playing, that can be learned and then passed on to others - the 'best way' depends on the abilities of the players.
As a result, although there are 10s of millions of people who play 8 ball, I am not sure that I agree with earlier posts suggesting that they will necessarily understand 8 ball, in the sense of really appreciating what a good 8 ball payer is doing.
Or as one pro said (somewhat more succinctly), 8 ball is the most misunderstood billiard game there is.
Contrast this with 9 / 10 ball, where as long as you can count and hear what the commentators are saying, you will be able to follow what the player is trying to do. (I am not suggesting that a casual viewer will pick up on every nuance, but this is true of any spectator sport and is not a problem.)
The other big thing going against 8-ball for a wide audience is that at a high level it is probably best played on a bar box. On a bigger table, there is too much space and too little conjestion. As a consequence, on a big table the game can lose much its character and become a little bit too easy (at least for someone with a straight stroke). But as The Renfro pointed out, small tables just do not work well on television.
So while I have sympathy with the critics of 9 ball, and to a lesser extent 10 ball, I really don't see any better pool games for the television age.
DogsPlayingPool (and Celtic):
Both of you are correct. To DogsPlayingPool's point, the WPA / World Standardized Rules for 10-ball do allow for two-way shots. In the WPA rules, if you call a shot and miss, as long as you didn't inadvertently pocket a ball (any ball, including the object ball going in the wrong pocket), the opponent has to accept the table as-is.
However, to Celtic's point, there are several tours that add "addendums" or extensions to the WPA rules for 10-ball, that stipulate a missed shot -- any missed shot -- gives option to the incoming player, even if a ball wasn't inadvertently pocketed. In the Tony Robles' Predator Open/Pro 10-ball Tour for example, they play this way, and the rules are plainly displayed on their website:
http://predator9balltour.com/rules.asp
See the section entitled, "2011 Open/Pro Rules" for 10-ball:
7. Call Shot/Safety:
Call Shot:
Players have the option of either calling their shot or calling a safety. Aside from obvious shots, the shooter must specify which ball and which pocket is being called. If a player is shooting a bank, combination or any kind of ambiguous shot, the player must call the shot.
If a player calls a shot and misses, the incoming player will have the option to shoot or make his opponent shoot again. No matter how many times a player misses a called shot, failure to pocket that ball legally or wrongfully pocketing the ball in another pocket allows the opposing player the option to shoot or make his opponent shoot again.
Call Safety:
If a player calls a safety, the incoming player does not have the option to make his opponent shoot again. The only exception is when a player calls safe and pockets a ball. If a player calls safe, legally hits the object ball and thereafter pockets any ball in their safety attempt, the opposing player has the option to shoot or make their opponent shoot again.
Call Shot:
Players have the option of either calling their shot or calling a safety. Aside from obvious shots, the shooter must specify which ball and which pocket is being called. If a player is shooting a bank, combination or any kind of ambiguous shot, the player must call the shot.
If a player calls a shot and misses, the incoming player will have the option to shoot or make his opponent shoot again. No matter how many times a player misses a called shot, failure to pocket that ball legally or wrongfully pocketing the ball in another pocket allows the opposing player the option to shoot or make his opponent shoot again.
Call Safety:
If a player calls a safety, the incoming player does not have the option to make his opponent shoot again. The only exception is when a player calls safe and pockets a ball. If a player calls safe, legally hits the object ball and thereafter pockets any ball in their safety attempt, the opposing player has the option to shoot or make their opponent shoot again.
There are other tours that play the same way, including the Seminole Tribe tour. The SBE even tried it this way one year (2009) but decided the standard WPA rules for the subsequent year, because of players like Archer that belabored matches and made them run too long, interfering with the next rounds.
Hope this helps,
-Sean
Most players realize that 9-ball is a bit more of a shooters game, while 8-ball is the thinkers game. I always liked 8-ball a bit more because it offers more opportunities to recover from a bad table roll. I began playing back when 8-ball was 2-foul BIH, requiring even more strategy but also making games occasionally last forever. I liked 9-ball better when it was call shot. I like the World Standardized Rules of 8-ball because they generally make more sense than "bar rules" or "official" rules that play slop, and simply because it makes sense to have one standardized set of rules. They have been modified over the years to take some of the luck out of the game as well. I think they could still be improved. One way is too eliminate any loss of game from a "mistake" on the 8. Losing by making the 8 in the wrong pocket or scratching when making the 8 is a left-over from the original coin-op rules because you had to put in an extra dime (yes!) or quarter to retrieve the 8-ball. In the old (pre-1963 or so) days you simply spotted the 8. Why must it be a loss for simply scratching while shooting at the 8? I've always believed that BIH is enough of a penalty, without loss of game.
9 ball is by far the superior game,8 ball is for the no playing leauge players.i wish pool would go back to the back rooms,and the hustlers would reign supreme again.who do you go to for knowledge about your game,the best players never played 8 ball because its so damn easy to play.
What planet do you play pool on? Many world champions are very proud of their titles in 8-ball, and I've played a few in such events. I'd say that most love ALL games. Were the days of "back rooms and hustlers" really the best years of pool? Check out a national event that has hundreds of teams and tell me 8-ball isn't really pool. If you like drunks, needle freaks and guns, then the "good old days" of hustling are for you, I suppose. I've played in some pretty seedy places during my 56 years on the felt, and I personally prefer a clean establishment with nice atmosphere, good equipment and no threats to your life.
I agree 100%.
8 ball has pleanty of luck in it. If you break come up dry and don't get the open set, they other player will run out (if you play at a good level).
9 ball, if you come up dry, the other plyer needs to run out, if he/she misses, your going for that same ball...
I know, I make no sense do to my poor writing skills, but in my head it makes sense.
I do like 8 ball, but hate the haters that use that weak excuse about the luck factor in 9 ball...
Pete
I would say the exact opposite.
There are really only two types of players that have a negative view of 9 ball. The first type is the guy that simply can't run out a table to save his life, for whatever reason. Usually they just aren't that good. However, they can occassionally run out a rack of 8 ball. So they tend to prefer to play 8 ball and talk poorly about 9 ball in the process. The 2nd type is the more seasoned player that can play decent 9 ball but they have gotten a bit bored with it. They have moved on to one-pocket or gone back to straight pool.
I hadn't played a competitive game of 8 ball in over 10 years until recently. It did reawaken my interest in the game a bit. There is definitely more strategy involved in the game, but executing the shots is much easier in my opinion.
I don't know ANY good 9 ball players that couldn't play good 8 ball if they just spent a bit of time playing it. Switching from 8 ball to 9 ball is another story.
The reason 9 ball increased in popularity is really the luck factor. At least at the lower levels it's a benefit more than a hinderance. If you switched all local tournaments to 8 ball, I'd bet your tournament dries up pretty quickly. You say the pot only gets to $100 in your local tourney, so I'm guessing that's 10 guys or less.
You need real noobs to enter your tournament or it's just back to the 4 top players in your local place playing each other for 10 freakin' dollars. They'd be robbin the tournament and the less experienced player doesn't even feel like lady luck could help him out.
It's one of the beauties of nine ball for local tournaments and quick cash play. There is an element of fortune (I won't call it luck) in nine ball. Sure, it's not the purest game and best game to discern skill level, it's the best for local tourney's and small time gambling fun.
You need real noobs to enter your tournament or it's just back to the 4 top players in your local place playing each other for 10 freakin' dollars. They'd be robbin the tournament and the less experienced player doesn't even feel like lady luck could help him out.
It's one of the beauties of nine ball for local tournaments and quick cash play. There is an element of fortune (I won't call it luck) in nine ball. Sure, it's not the purest game and best game to discern skill level, it's the best for local tourney's and small time gambling fun.
I agree with everything you said,,,,, except the 10' table. 8-ball is best played on a barbox. the more room you have on a table the easier it is. Tighter pockets would only mitigate that a little bit and make it harder for the weaker players.
No, you can't. In most current pro 10-ball tournaments if you call the shot and you miss your opponent can make you shoot again.
Nah, on a 10-foot table with close to 4 inch pockets the game of 8-ball becomes a totally different game. 8-ball patterns often require tricky shape play and cinching of balls in order to avoid moving stuff around but from what we saw of Earl vs SVB on the 10-foot table if you have that bigger table and smaller pockets the long shots are no longer gimme's.
Bar boxes are great for the amatures but at the pro ranks they are WAY too easy on open racks, break the balls open? You win. Potting is a joke for the top pros, I watched a ton of pro bar box pool at the BCA over the years and that is most definately NOT the game for them.
Once those 10-foot diamonds are built I really hope to see a long 8-ball challenge match on TAR between two top pros. Appleton vs SVB perhaps, as Appleton was a 2-shot champ and knows the moves. I think 8-ball on a 10-foot with 4 inch pockets or so will be a VERY challenging and interesting game for the top pros.
I'd watch it.
Personally, I think some of the rules of 8-ball are pretty lame. I shouldn't be able to win without taking a shot: opponent breaks, runs, then scratches on the 8. I realize that in the upper-echelons of pool playing (that most people in this thread are thinking of) this doesn't typically happen but I see the possibility as a flaw in the rules. If nothing else, it's a pretty hollow "victory" to win because the other guy scratched.
8-ball is perfect for barboxes since you can't spot pocketed balls but if you have a regular table, I think there are better games to play.
9-ball isn't much better in this respect. You can break, run, scratch on the 9, and give me ball in hand with an easy win.
If I had my druthers (and no one ever wants to give them to me) I would play 14.1 on regular tables and 8-ball on barboxes.
Full disclosure: I really stink at 9-ball and I'm not much better at 8 or 14.1. I'm merely commmenting on the RULES of the games and my perceived inadequacies of those rules. I realize it takes great skill and strategy to play all cue games.
8-ball is perfect for barboxes since you can't spot pocketed balls but if you have a regular table, I think there are better games to play.
9-ball isn't much better in this respect. You can break, run, scratch on the 9, and give me ball in hand with an easy win.
If I had my druthers (and no one ever wants to give them to me) I would play 14.1 on regular tables and 8-ball on barboxes.
Full disclosure: I really stink at 9-ball and I'm not much better at 8 or 14.1. I'm merely commmenting on the RULES of the games and my perceived inadequacies of those rules. I realize it takes great skill and strategy to play all cue games.