What threads are really the best???? for putting 2 pieces together as 1,and why not s

[HollyWood]

Is there really a reason cue threads were- 5/16-14, and 5/16-18 , when 5/16 by 16 or 5/16-24 threads could be used!!!!!!!!! and off course all 3/8-10,11,12. I was at a flea Market Sat- and a retired machinist had 10 of each standard size , carbide drill bits-etc. He had the best of everything and it was inexpensive- Why shouldn't I use 5/16-16 or 5/16-24 ?? there are thousands of machine shops using all the standard threads sizes!!!!!! Thanks in advance for all the comments ahead of time !! Mark

 

[manwon]

Is there really a reason cue threads were- 5/16-14, and 5/16-18 , when 5/16 by 16 or 5/16-24 threads could be used!!!!!!!!! and off course all 3/8-10,11,12. I was at a flea Market Sat- and a retired machinist had 10 of each standard size , carbide drill bits-etc. He had the best of everything and it was inexpensive- Why shouldn't I use 5/16-16 or 5/16-24 ?? there are thousands of machine shops using all the standard threads sizes!!!!!! Thanks in advance for all the comments ahead of time !! Mark

Wow Mark you are straight to the point, but here is a simple question for you why are you asking, why not just try it out and see if you like the results. That is the great thing, at least for me, about building something since you are building it you can do anything that you mind can imagine.

I doubt that I am the only one who sees things this way, but it appears to me at least that to many people just follow what others are doing without using what god gave us all the ability to think on our own.

In cue making unlike many other forms of craftsmanship it can be very difficult to find ways to learn the trade. Cue makers are secretive about the way they do things because they have had to learn through trial and error what works well and what doesn't. This can take many many years based upon a person experience when they begin building cues and that knowledge in my opinion should not be free.

I am completely self taught, I have always loved pool and billiards along with the artistry and craftsmanship that go's into building cues. So I decided to give cue making a try, and I went into it understanding that knowledge is not free and that if I wanted to learn this trade I would have to experiment with materials and construction techniques.

I would recommend that you do the same thing because when you figure something out that has escaped you for awhile it is a very rewarding experience. So if I were you I would not listen to what other people say, while some are sincere and will try to help, others will ridicule your ideas or intentionally point you down the wrong path. I would recommend testing your ideas, this way when finish a cue it is an accomplishment in much more than the way it looks.

JIMO

 

[JoeyInCali]

First off, we don't need any more bastard threads.
Please, let's end it at radial and quick-release.
No more .36825 by 7.253213 TPI or so.
Please . One maker claimed his own pin was the best but the pros he gave cues to won their US Open and World titles different pins.


I like big pins. 5/16 14 with brass inserts have too much play for my liking.
I only do 3/8 11 or radial.

 

[scdiveteam]

Hi,

I like the DPK philosophy. Big Pin and flat face joint. Any 3/8" modified will do. I prefer 3/8" x 14 TPI.

The idea is to produce a very tight facing at the joint. I believe a Garolite LE insert maintains that facing pressure over time in the field as opposed to just threaded wood. They only add 15 minutes to my shaft processing and cost me $ 2.00 ea. A real bargain for what they do.

Rick G


Here is my 3/8" x 14 pin. I had 500 fabricated to get a low price point.

 

[macguy]

Hi,

I like the DPK philosophy. Big Pin and flat face joint. Any 3/8" modified will do. I prefer 3/8" x 14 TPI.

The idea is to produce a very tight facing at the joint. I believe a Garolite LE insert maintains that facing pressure over time in the field as opposed to just threaded wood. They only add 15 minutes to my shaft processing and cost me $ 2.00 ea. A real bargain for what they do.

Rick G


Here is my 3/8" x 14 pin. I had 500 fabricated to get a low price point.

Just curious, why would you have these pins made? Why not just use a 5/16 x 14 or 18 to make a flat faced joint? Or any of the larger pins for that matter that are already out there?

 

[qbilder]

Anything that grips & locks down tight is as good as any other thread type. There are no rules dictating that you can't use this or that.

 

[cueman]

Since 5/16-18 and 5/16-14 both work fine, then your 5/16-16 would work fine also if you had quality parts made to a good fit between the insert and pin. But the 5/16-24 would just take too long to thread and unthread for most people's taste.

 

[Lexicologist71]

As a mechanic, my opinion is that standard threads are best because they give the most surface area on the thread. However, flat bottomed threads are easier to get straight. Radial threads were designed for parts that move constantly so that they were less likely to bind. That's why some radial screw cues won't stay tight; their screw wasn't designed to bind under torque.

 

[JoeyInCali]

As a mechanic, my opinion is that standard threads are best because they give the most surface area on the thread. However, flat bottomed threads are easier to get straight. Radial threads were designed for parts that move constantly so that they were less likely to bind. That's why some radial screw cues won't stay tight; their screw wasn't designed to bind under torque.

Aren't ball screws designed to have less play and smoother movement ?
They don't bind b/c they have balls that ride them.
In the case of cues, they have non-moving wood threads bound to them so they should stay intact, I think.

 

[conetip]

Is there really a reason cue threads were- 5/16-14, and 5/16-18 , when 5/16 by 16 or 5/16-24 threads could be used!!!!!!!!! and off course all 3/8-10,11,12. I was at a flea Market Sat- and a retired machinist had 10 of each standard size , carbide drill bits-etc. He had the best of everything and it was inexpensive- Why shouldn't I use 5/16-16 or 5/16-24 ?? there are thousands of machine shops using all the standard threads sizes!!!!!! Thanks in advance for all the comments ahead of time !! Mark

In my cues, I use 5/16-18 TPI and I have a spigot that is Ø9.5mm x2.5mm long going into a Ø3/8 Ø9.52mm recess, for the radial alignment.
The 5/16 thread is more than strong enough to hold to the two parts firmly together.
If there is a metal insert in the shaft, the thread does not need to be any more than 1 diameters of engagement, my case the thread only needs to be 5/16 inch long or so.
When going into wood, the diameter to length ratio needs to be longer for the longevity of the joint.
It is all just personal preference. The only important part for me, Is the assembly strong enough to make both pieces behave truly as a single entity?
When it does not, something is not correct. It is easy to test, as the cue will resonate like a musical instrument.
The real goal, is to make a 2 piece cue that behaves and plays better than a 1 piece cue.

 

[scdiveteam]

Just curious, why would you have these pins made? Why not just use a 5/16 x 14 or 18 to make a flat faced joint? Or any of the larger pins for that matter that are already out there?

Mac,

I see your point and it is a very logical question. The reason I went with this pin is a long story. Sometimes in life you go down a road that you don't choose and in the end it turns out to be a better road trip.

When I first started in my cue making journey I had been doing a lot of cue repair at my pool hall and when I made my first cues I used the Unilock Radial Pin and liked it's engineering attributes. I am a huge fan of anything to do with Bill Stroud's philosophy in cue making. Bill, David and Burton are my favorite Cue Makers.

When I started to make the financial commitment to purchasing plant equipment and tooling to build a Cue Shop I teamed up with my mentor Ray Hernandez. Ray was the last cue maker to work in Waconda, Il. at the Omega DPK shop. When Ray and I started our partnership he told me flat out that he was not coming onboard unless we used the 3/8 x 14 pin and he did not want to use anything else.

Many years ago my friend and neighbor (the late) John Wright was involved in the start up of Omega and I remember him telling me about this pin as it was a thread design change from David's modified.

I listened to Ray and I am glad I did. Ray is a retired tool and die engineer and he had the tooling made for the screw machine production and changed the nose contour geometry so our pin was not an exact copy of Omega's pin. Only the thread features matches Omega or Mike Bender's Pin.

Downside is I had to make my own maintenance pins as they are not available commercially. No big deal. Upside is "exclusivity" as this pin is only used by a few cue makers as far as I know. These pins are triple chrome plated brass and when these run out I have plans to go to Monel without plating.

I don't think it performs better than a 3/8 X 10 or 11 modified, it's just a 14.

Rick G

After having 500 units produced I am pretty much committed to this pin. All of my cues have it and only a few of my first cues had the Radial Pin like JW.

 

[Paul Dayton]

I once had 500 modified radial pins made to save money. The regular Radial pins were great but at $15 each, expensive. I received the pins and before I used them I regained consciousness and realized that they were nothing more than a marketing ploy. Uni-Loc produced the best quality pins on the market and I was hoping to get mine to the same level of consistency. That wasn't happening as a quick peek through a 10X magnifier showed. I gave away all the pins except one that I keep as a reminder.

If there are perfectly good screws being used and they are readily available then adopting a bastard thread will only make life difficult for the owner of the cue and the local reairman when it comes time to maintain or repair the cue. I always build every cue so that it never needs any repair but darn it all that doesn't always work out and I don't want to be the only person who can perform routine maintenance because I have the secret screws. Ferrari uses standard metric screws, nuts and bolts on its cars, the same as Fiat. Standardization made the industrial revolution and all that followed possible.

If you want to build your own screws, why not take the standard screw size and make it better. Of course there is the possibility that even if you have a nice really machine shop you won't be able to do better than a shop with state of the art CNC screw machines, electro grinders and electro platers, and professionally trained staff. Then again, maybe you can.

 

[scdiveteam]

I once had 500 modified radial pins made to save money. The regular Radial pins were great but at $15 each, expensive. I received the pins and before I used them I regained consciousness and realized that they were nothing more than a marketing ploy. Uni-Loc produced the best quality pins on the market and I was hoping to get mine to the same level of consistency. That wasn't happening as a quick peek through a 10X magnifier showed. I gave away all the pins except one that I keep as a reminder.

If there are perfectly good screws being used and they are readily available then adopting a bastard thread will only make life difficult for the owner of the cue and the local reairman when it comes time to maintain or repair the cue. I always build every cue so that it never needs any repair but darn it all that doesn't always work out and I don't want to be the only person who can perform routine maintenance because I have the secret screws. Ferrari uses standard metric screws, nuts and bolts on its cars, the same as Fiat. Standardization made the industrial revolution and all that followed possible.

If you want to build your own screws, why not take the standard screw size and make it better. Of course there is the possibility that even if you have a nice really machine shop you won't be able to do better than a shop with state of the art CNC screw machines, electro grinders and electro platers, and professionally trained staff. Then again, maybe you can.

Paul,

Holding a minor and cutting a thread is not the same as making a complex 4 axis radial pin geometry. Apples and oranges. In the long run I did save about $ 5.00 per pin but money has never been a motivation for me.

In marketing, "Exclusivity" sometimes separates one from the pack. I did not plan to have a pin that was different than a standard, it just happened that way. Today I am glad it is non standard. Custom Made Cues should have custom feature elements to separate them from other cues. Choices are good for buyers.

Mike Bender and Ed Young aren't losing sales with a non standard pin and I don't think it will hurt my sales. It hasn't so far. People like things that are different.

I have had strangers that never touched one of my cues order a cue from me because they heard I have this pin. Go figure. If they think it makes the cue play better that's OK as long as I tell them it's the shaft contour and balance that does. As I said, I don't think the 14 tpi modified plays better than a 10 or 11 modified.

I also have done a lot of Omega DPK restorations and made over 40 shafts for Omega and Bender Cues for customers. Having this non standard tooling has made me many thousands of dollars. I am sure that someone like Ryan or KJ has this kind of tooling but I bet there is not too many others.

Rick G

 

[JoeyInCali]

In marketing, "Exclusivity" sometimes separates one from the pack. I did not plan to have a pin that was different than a standard, it just happened that way. Today I am glad it is non standard. Custom Made Cues should have custom feature elements to separate them from other cues. Choices are good for the player.

Imagine if we had 1000 bastard pins going around .
Why would that be good for players or repair people ?
One infamous maker make his pins oddball size.
Your 14 tpi is not so bad b/c it was established early.
Imagine metric threads, half threads, buttress threads , piloted big pins, etc.

 

[Arnot Wadsworth]

Paul,

Holding a minor and cutting a thread is not the same as making a complex 4 axis radial pin geometry. Apples and oranges. In the long run I did save about $ 5.00 per pin but money has never been a motivation for me.

In marketing, "Exclusivity" sometimes separates one from the pack. I did not plan to have a pin that was different than a standard, it just happened that way. Today I am glad it is non standard. Custom Made Cues should have custom feature elements to separate them from other cues. Choices are good for buyers.

Mike Bender and Ed Young aren't losing sales with a non standard pin and I don't think it will hurt my sales. It hasn't so far. People like things that are different.

I have had strangers that never touched one of my cues order a cue from me because they heard I have this pin. Go figure. If they think it makes the cue play better that's OK as long as I tell them it's the shaft contour and balance that does. As I said, I don't think the 14 tpi modified plays better than a 10 or 11 modified.

I also have done a lot of Omega DPK restorations and made shafts for Bender Cues for customers. Having this non standard tooling has made be thousands of dollars. I am sure that someone like Ryan or KJ has this kind of tooling but I bet there is not too many others.

Rick G

I am sure that any professional cuemaker has the tooling necessary to do the job correctly. But I don't know of a single professional who uses a 3/8-14 pin. To be the only one who uses a bastard thread like the 3/8-14 says in essence states that all other cuemakers in the world are wrong and he is correct in the 3/8-14 choice. NOT!!!

I still believe the Uni-Loc Radial Pin is the best pin ever designed for cues because of its extreme accuracy, finish and ease of installation.

 

[scdiveteam]

I am sure that any professional cuemaker has the tooling necessary to do the job correctly. But I don't know of a single professional who uses a 3/8-14 pin. To be the only one who uses a bastard thread like the 3/8-14 says in essence states that all other cuemakers in the world are wrong and he is correct in the 3/8-14 choice. NOT!!!

I still believe the Uni-Loc Radial Pin is the best pin ever designed for cues because of its extreme accuracy, finish and ease of installation.

Arnot,

Forgot to say JMO.

Omega DPK, Mike Bender, and I am pretty sure Ed Young uses 3/8" x 14. I think they could be called professionals? I have not seen too many Youngs but Mike's Cue are in the select "Top of the Heap" group of Cue Makers today. JMO

Rick

 

[JoeyInCali]

Arnot,

Forgot to say JMO.

Omega DPK, Mike Bender, and I am pretty sure Ed Young uses 3/8" x 14. I think they could be called professionals?

Rick

There goes the EXCLUSIVITY then.

 

[Arnot Wadsworth]

Arnot,

Forgot to say JMO.

Omega DPK, Mike Bender, and I am pretty sure Ed Young uses 3/8" x 14. I think they could be called professionals? I have not seen too many Youngs but Mike's Cue are in the select "Top of the Heap" group of Cue Makers today. JMO

Rick

Your only claim to fame is that you are good at dropping names.

 

[scdiveteam]

There goes the EXCLUSIVITY then.

Joe,

750 plus cue makers today? Pretty exclusive still. I never said better. I love the Radial and Bill Stroud's cues as the trailblazer in that area. Hall of Fame Stuff.

In my view Bill, David and Burton are the guys to focus on if you wish to aspire to raise the bar of expectations. My pin evolved from David' contribution to our industry. As I said my first choice was the radial because of Bill influence on me but Ray insisted on the Omega style and today, I am very happy I went that way also using an insert in the shaft.

Rick

 

[scdiveteam]

Arnot,

Forgot to say JMO.

Omega DPK, Mike Bender, and I am pretty sure Ed Young uses 3/8" x 14. I think they could be called professionals? I have not seen too many Youngs but Mike's Cue are in the select "Top of the Heap" group of Cue Makers today. JMO

Rick

Your only claim to fame is that you are good at dropping names.

Arnot,

I am not trying to hurt your feelings but IMO you have this coming by your personall attack of my character. Your only claim to fame is that you are malcontented and always attacking people here. Go back and re-read you past threads and posts. They are all negative about someone or something. You also like to tell young people that they should quit cue making for some reason or another. What's going on in your pea brain? For that you are consistent.

Don't put words in my mouth when I correct your misstatement about other professionals who use this style pin. When I stated those names it was to explain that their other top professionals use that style after you said no one did. That is called presenting evidence. You deal in subjectivity constantly and your ego is very revealing.

So when you make an asinine statement and are proved wrong beyond a shadow of a doubt, all you can do is attack me for saying something that is completely germane and true. Name dropping, I think not. I am not, nor will I ever be attacked by the likes of you and take it sitting down. You make it personal. They must have beat you during potty training.

Go back and re read my threads and posts and I think you will find that I try to share and make friends because I was trained at a young age that you get more bees with honey than you do with vinegar and it is always better to have friends, not enemys.

I have been actively trying to change the culture of this forum in my own small ways through subtle repetition for years now and I think in my own small way it is changing. Except for the likes of your kind. Sharing info, peer check & review and positive influence helps all that play in a sand box well together.

Why because I love cue making and the people who also love it share a lot of the same things. There are many people here who I have relationships with who are also trying the change the culture hear and see you as a distraction and obstructionist. I don't care how many thousands of cues you claim to have made, it gives you no right to undermine other people.

You my friend are disillusioned and use this forum to attack and bully through your own ignorance. You are an Internet Troll personified.

Rick