Question for any pool instructor

[robleyf7]

i have a serious question too any top notch pool instructor pro/champion player when u sighting ur shot an about too shoot what part of the ob u look at

A.Contact Point
B.Ghost Ball
C.Cue Ball

Or.......

please don.t come in here an say what u do or something like that if your not a professional pool instructors or pro/champion only please thanks

not tryin too be mean or anything just want some serious Answers from ppl that knows thats in Advance

 

[jtompilot]

A.

But there is a "ask the instructor" forum

 

[robleyf7]

A.

But there is a "ask the instructor" forum

yes i know but i like my chances here lol i get more answers here

 

[Neil]

yes i know but i like my chances here lol i get more answers here

Make up your mind there , bud. You stated ONLY TOP NOTCH instructors need reply. That pretty much limits your replies to not very many.

As a NOT top notch instructor, for your normal shots, I teach to look at the contact point last.

 

[genomachino]

Hi there Robley 3 part answer..............

i have a serious question too any top notch pool instructor pro/champion player when u sighting ur shot an about too shoot what part of the ob u look at

A.Contact Point
B.Ghost Ball
C.Cue Ball

Or.......

please don.t come in here an say what u do or something like that if your not a professional pool instructors or pro/champion only please thanks

not tryin too be mean or anything just want some serious Answers from ppl that knows thats in Advance

Hi there robley,

I watched you a little on the Big truck live stream. You have a passion for the game that is easy to see like most of us. The questions that you ask are pretty easy to answer.

The contact point is there and we know it is there but there is no way that anyone can look at the point on this round ball and say that this point on this round ball is going to hit the other one. I could never figure this one out myself.
When someone says hit the contact point? Our eyes don't really aim like that. It confuses more than it helps sometimes.

The ghost ball is where the cue ball needs to be when it makes contact with the object ball but knowing this doesn't help you see it right. You have both eyes fighting to be dominant and unless you know how to keep them right the info is meaningless to a certain extent unless you know how to control your dominant vision.

Looking at the cue ball at the wrong time in the aiming process can cause a player alot of trouble. Especially looking at the cue ball when you stroke.
looking at the cue ball at the wrong time in the aiming process sabatages the aim to the point where the shot might look terrible sometimes. Many players don't even know it but they did it to themselves by looking at the cue ball at the wrong time. Once your out of line it's to late.

Once a person learns to have the eyes in the most correct position you don't focus on any of the above. I tell players to just look at the aim as your sliding a big pie at a big pie. Once you have the eyes in the right position you will be able to visualize how much is going to hit how much alot easier.

Now here is the problem. When we play alot we naturally start to get the eyes in the more correct position because of repetition. This is why pros and other players that play alot can get shooting so good. But even when playing so much there will be a shot here and there that they will not get in that perfect position and miss the shot. Why? For some reason they just got the eyes in the wrong position, could be from fatigue, stress, excited or an optical illusion that these round balls can create but the reason doesn't matter, the shot was doomed from the start.

Players that play really well such as the pros don't think they need to know this but the truth is they need to know it more so they can correct themselves when they get down to shoot a shot for all the bananas and it doesn't look quite right. . But how do you tell someone that shoots really well that you got something that will help them?

Many times on these shots we know it doesn't quit look right and we might jump up or twist trying subconsiously to correct but we don't even know how to correct the aim. When this happens the shot has about 0% of going.

Give me a call Robley and I will run you through my free phone lesson. You will see what all the other players are seeing that makes them just go WOW.
I see what you mean.

The best time to call is after 7:00 or 8:00 at night. Most minutes on the cell phones are free at that time. It should take about 1/2 hour to run you through Perfect Aim.

Just give me a call. 715-563-8712 and I'll set up a time for you that will work when you can be by a table.

Looking forward to working with you Robley. After we get done you too will know the answers to all three of those questions for sure.

Call me anytime geno............ I'm excited to help you. You need to get excited and give me a call even tonight.

Talk to you soon....................

 

[Neil]

Hi there robley,



The contact point is there and we know it is there but there is no way that anyone can look at the point on this round ball and say that this point on this round ball is going to hit the other one. I could never figure this one out myself.
When someone says hit the contact point? Our eyes don't really aim like that. It confuses more than it helps sometimes.

Geno, with all due respect,and in tune with the OP's question, it actually depends on HOW one aims. Not all ways work for all people. There are ways to aim that require you to know the contact point. And, to line up "a certain something" with that contact point.

And, there are other aiming methods that require an overlap of the cb and ob. Not everyone can see it, just like not everyone can see a ghost ball. But, some do.

 

[robleyf7]

Hi there robley,

I watched you a little on the Big truck live stream. You have a passion for the game that is easy to see like most of us. The questions that you ask are pretty easy to answer.

The contact point is there and we know it is there but there is no way that anyone can look at the point on this round ball and say that this point on this round ball is going to hit the other one. I could never figure this one out myself.
When someone says hit the contact point? Our eyes don't really aim like that. It confuses more than it helps sometimes.

The ghost ball is where the cue ball needs to be when it makes contact with the object ball but knowing this doesn't help you see it right. You have both eyes fighting to be dominant and unless you know how to keep them right the info is meaningless to a certain extent unless you know how to control your dominant vision.

Looking at the cue ball at the wrong time in the aiming process can cause a player alot of trouble. Especially looking at the cue ball when you stroke.
looking at the cue ball at the wrong time in the aiming process sabatages the aim to the point where the shot might look terrible sometimes. Many players don't even know it but they did it to themselves by looking at the cue ball at the wrong time. Once your out of line it's to late.

Once a person learns to have the eyes in the most correct position you don't focus on any of the above. I tell players to just look at the aim as your sliding a big pie at a big pie. Once you have the eyes in the right position you will be able to visualize how much is going to hit how much alot easier.

Now here is the problem. When we play alot we naturally start to get the eyes in the more correct position because of repetition. This is why pros and other players that play alot can get shooting so good. But even when playing so much there will be a shot here and there that they will not get in that perfect position and miss the shot. Why? For some reason they just got the eyes in the wrong position, could be from fatigue, stress, excited or an optical illusion that these round balls can create but the reason doesn't matter, the shot was doomed from the start.

Players that play really well such as the pros don't think they need to know this but the truth is they need to know it more so they can correct themselves when they get down to shoot a shot for all the bananas and it doesn't look quite right. . But how do you tell someone that shoots really well that you got something that will help them?

Many times on these shots we know it doesn't quit look right and we might jump up or twist trying subconsiously to correct but we don't even know how to correct the aim. When this happens the shot has about 0% of going.

Give me a call Robley and I will run you through my free phone lesson. You will see what all the other players are seeing that makes them just go WOW.
I see what you mean.

The best time to call is after 7:00 or 8:00 at night. Most minutes on the cell phones are free at that time. It should take about 1/2 hour to run you through Perfect Aim.

Just give me a call. 715-563-8712 and I'll set up a time for you that will work when you can be by a table.

Looking forward to working with you Robley. After we get done you too will know the answers to all three of those questions for sure.

Call me anytime geno............ I'm excited to help you. You need to get excited and give me a call even tonight.

Talk to you soon....................

thanks Geno i have pool league tonite an i don.t have mins on my cell atm but i will take u up on that offer ASAP thanks for the Reply

 

[Scott Lee]

Gene...While I happen to agree with you about looking at the OB when striking the CB, you cannot make blanket statements like this. Ralf Souquet looks at the CB last, and is one of the best players on the planet. There are no doubt others. I also played and taught looking the CB last sucessfully for several years, although I have switched back to what I originally learned (OB last), due to updated research on how the eyes work best with the brain. The real truth is that if you line up correctly, and have a straight stroke, you can shoot the shot with your eyes closed. In the end, it works differently for different players.

Robley...I choose A, as well.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

Looking at the cue ball at the wrong time in the aiming process can cause a player alot of trouble. Especially looking at the cue ball when you stroke.
...

 

[genomachino]

I disagree about the eyes closed............

Gene...While I happen to agree with you about looking at the OB when striking the CB, you cannot make blanket statements like this. Ralf Souquet looks at the CB last, and is one of the best players on the planet. There are no doubt others. I also played and taught looking the CB last sucessfully for several years, although I have switched back to what I originally learned (OB last), due to updated research on how the eyes work best with the brain. The real truth is that if you line up correctly, and have a straight stroke, you can shoot the shot with your eyes closed. In the end, it works differently for different players.

Robley...I choose A, as well.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

Hi there Scott,

I used to play a guy named Irv Englebretson at the View in Chippewa Falls Wis. We would aim the shot and then the opponent would put a piece of cardboard over your eyes and you would shoot the shot not being able to see the object ball.

I would say I played about 2 balls better than Irv but this was a huge equalizer for sure. It was like closing your eyes. We did this every week for $100 a rack for awhile.

I used to shoots shots feeling like a hot shot closing my eyes showing off. Looks good but it's not very good results overall.

I learned from this that I needed to visualize the shot right up to the end. Point being I could see that I steered the stroke right up until you hit the cue ball.

I'll play anyone in the world for $1000 a set all week 8 hour a day and sign a contract if I can put the cardboard in front of their eyes when they shoot.

I'll bet another $1000 that they won't ever want to try it again.

Anyone that tries this will know why I say this. It just doesn't work very well. Maybe a shot or 2 but then you miss or miss shape. You need to visualize right to the end.

I'm not trying to argue. i just know what I know.

 

[JoeW]

Robley, Look up the research on the "Quiet Eye." Scientists have found that people in sports similar to playing pool look at the equivelent of the contact point for an extended period of time ( a second or more) before pulling the trigger. Research by a fellow in Florida found that pool players tended to look longer at shots they made than at shots they missed. I think the consensus in the scientific community is that you need to spend the last few seconds (a long time) looking at what you want to hit.

Dr Dave's web site has some references to the "Quiet Eye" that you will find useful.

A quick summary of much of this research goes something like this, your eyes and your brain guide your muscles. This is an automatic process. If you stare at the aim point for a second or more before you pull the trigger, you allow your brain to plan, coordinate, and execute all of the fine motor controls needed to make a shot.

I am not an expert pool insructor but I am an expert scientist and this is some of the best thinking and research on this topic.

 

[duckie]

How bout a point on the table. Read about the Arrow developed by Babe Cranfield.

http://books.google.com/books?id=XY...&resnum=1&ved=0CCcQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false

How bout no eye shifting at all.

"In combat, a student must learn to expand his attention over the entire area by making full use of his peripheral vision.

Exercise: The teacher extends his index finger and instructs the student to concentrate on the point of the finger. He then begins moving the index finger of his other hand into the students field of vision and slowly describes letters and numerals with it. The student should be able to expand his attention sufficiently to recognize the figure without changing the focus of his eyes." Bruce Lee, Tao of Jeet Kune Do.

How this applies to pool is being able to see where you are placing your bridge and tip of cue and everything on the table while still looking at the spot on the table to put the CB.

Some good advice from some top notch instructors.

 

[Scott Lee]

JoeW...As you know (if you paid attention at pool school), this is exactly what our PEP instruction is all about, coupled with some additional information from opthamologists, neurologists, and kinesiologists. "Quiet Eye" is huge, when it comes to shooting pool.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

Robley, Look up the research on the "Quiet Eye." Scientists have found that people in sports similar to playing pool look at the equivelent of the contact point for an extended period of time ( a second or more) before pulling the trigger. Research by a fellow in Florida found that pool players tended to look longer at shots they made than at shots they missed. I think the consensus in the scientific community is that you need to spend the last few seconds (a long time) looking at what you want to hit.

Dr Dave's web site has some references to the "Quiet Eye" that you will find useful.

A quick summary of much of this research goes something like this, your eyes and your brain guide your muscles. This is an automatic process. If you stare at the aim point for a second or more before you pull the trigger, you allow your brain to plan, coordinate, and execute all of the fine motor controls needed to make a shot.

I am not an expert pool insructor but I am an expert scientist and this is some of the best thinking and research on this topic.

 

[Neil]

Hi there Scott,

I used to play a guy named Irv Englebretson at the View in Chippewa Falls Wis. We would aim the shot and then the opponent would put a piece of cardboard over your eyes and you would shoot the shot not being able to see the object ball.

I would say I played about 2 balls better than Irv but this was a huge equalizer for sure. It was like closing your eyes. We did this every week for $100 a rack for awhile.

I used to shoots shots feeling like a hot shot closing my eyes showing off. Looks good but it's not very good results overall.

I learned from this that I needed to visualize the shot right up to the end. Point being I could see that I steered the stroke right up until you hit the cue ball.

I'll play anyone in the world for $1000 a set all week 8 hour a day and sign a contract if I can put the cardboard in front of their eyes when they shoot.

I'll bet another $1000 that they won't ever want to try it again.

Anyone that tries this will know why I say this. It just doesn't work very well. Maybe a shot or 2 but then you miss or miss shape. You need to visualize right to the end.

I'm not trying to argue. i just know what I know.

Gene, I don't have the money to bet anyways, but are you saying you will have your eyes open, or you will also have them closed. If you are saying open, then what a gaff bet you have going there.

But, I have run 4 racks in a row on a barbox closing my eyes and turning my head once I was set in position. It's just about setting up right, and having a repeatable stroke.

 

[genomachino]

Exactly my point.........

Gene, I don't have the money to bet anyways, but are you saying you will have your eyes open, or you will also have them closed. If you are saying open, then what a gaff bet you have going there.

But, I have run 4 racks in a row on a barbox closing my eyes and turning my head once I was set in position. It's just about setting up right, and having a repeatable stroke.

I would not expect anyone to take that bet anyway. I was just trying to make a point. It would be stealing and I'm not a thief..

All the players that I have seen looking at the cue ball when they stroke seem to have trouble. The 10 or 15 that I have run into have shown immediate improvement when they are looking at the object ball when they stroke.

One of the biggest problems that I run into when I'm doing alot of lessons is the player isn't looking at the ob when they stroke. They might be inbtween the ob and the cue ball but their not exactly on the ob. I look for this alot. And when I see that I had the player focus on staring at that ob when they pull the trigger and their response is usually WOW. Does that make it easier.Because we can steer the stroke right until the end and do.

If Neil looks at the cue ball only as he strokes the shot and does not look at the object ball at all during the stroke he is shooting awful good in spite of how he is doing it. I'd like to see him shoot with a camera on his eyes and see it for myself because that is really tough to shoot well like that. If he does more power to him.

But when there is 9,999 players doing it one way and it works the best for them and 1 doing it the other way I tend to think I want to focus on the way that the 9,999 are doing it. Or 300 pros doing it one way and 1 doing it the other way I like my odds of having it right following the the 300 pro players..

I see why Scott changed his teaching on that because it just doesn't work very well looking at the cue ball when you stroke. Good thing.

I play pretty good and I don't remember running any racks not looking at the object balls. And I did it alot with my friend Irv.

I know I couldn't do it playing 9 ball. Or playing on a 9 footer any game. It's just really tough.

If you only tried this once and ran 4 racks that's pretty good.

Teaching pool is not rocket science. When you find something that works and it seems to work well for almost everyone, this is what you need to teach. And when you do a high volume of lessons in a short period of time you start to really see what works.

Plus, I didn't just learn this from someone, I'm actually using this stuff to make my own game better. I see with my own eyes what it takes to get to a higher level.

During my rehab from my accident I couldn't even stroke the cue. I hardly played for 3 months. A month before the accident working so much and then for about 2 months after because I couldn't. It's given me a chance to shoot being really out of stroke.

After focusing on all these things I teach I'm running out on the 9 footer again in just a few days. I get real sore real quick so I have to quit after about an hour or 2 but whoever I'm playing with is racking alot.

Getting in stroke usually includes doing everything you do when you shoot. It is a combination of everything. The more things you do right , the shorter this getting in stroke process is. Most of it is spent trying to aim and get the eyes in the right position naturally. What I teach really shortens this time with the aiming part.

Neil, being a teacher yourself it's pretty easy to see when something works really well for most. If it works the best that is what I teach unless i see something that works better. But until I see something that works better than what I'm teaching with great success or using in my own game with great success I'm not changing anything.

And I do try everything that I can to see if it works. Some things that some people teach are rediculous. And the teachers that are teaching things that don't work tend to not be very busy teaching because good results are what gets a teacher more lessons.

I'm just trying to help players with my knowledge of the game just like all the other teachers are. It's really frustating to have other teacher dis me when I try to help someone.

I really do know what I'm talking about especially when it comes to aiming.

I'm not directing this at you Neil . I know you do alot of teaching and help alot of player and we need good teacher everywhere.

I just get tired of when I say it's white someone else telling me it black when I know for a fact it's white. Especially when they should know better...........

 

[Neil]

Gene, you misunderstood. I look at the ob last, not the cb last. I do spend some time lining up the ob contact point with a "certain something", but, then I am still, looking soley at my contact point on the ob, do a slow pull back, making sure I pull back very straight, then pause, then my stick starts going forward on the exact same line I pulled it back on.

 

[Scott Lee]

Ummm, no...actually I shot VERY well looking at the CB last, and did it for almost 10 yrs, including gambling that way. Nobody is really "dissing" you. It's great that you are helping people to play better. I personally do get tired of the "I'm the only one that knows this" BS. We've been teaching the same thing as you for years (and you have already admitted that in a 'phone lesson' with another SPF instructor.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

I see why Scott changed his teaching on that because it just doesn't work very well looking at the cue ball when you stroke. Good thing.


I'm just trying to help players with my knowledge of the game just like all the other teachers are. It's really frustating to have other teacher dis me when I try to help someone.

I really do know what I'm talking about especially when it comes to aiming.

I'm not directing this at you Neil . I know you do alot of teaching and help alot of player and we need good teacher everywhere.

I just get tired of when I say it's white someone else telling me it black when I know for a fact it's white. Especially when they should know better...........

 

[genomachino]

How can you say that when it's not true.........

Ummm, no...actually I shot VERY well looking at the CB last, and did it for almost 10 yrs, including gambling that way. Nobody is really "dissing" you. It's great that you are helping people to play better. I personally do get tired of the "I'm the only one that knows this" BS. We've been teaching the same thing as you for years (and you have already admitted that in a 'phone lesson' with another SPF instructor.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

It's not good to use second hand info on the internet.

Make sure your info is 100% correct before you write it down.

I teach them How, what and why when it comes to aiming. It's more than just the dominant eye that some people don't have.

Look at all the testimonials Scott from all the players that have never seen this anywhere.

It's OK that you don't know this. How do you know what you don't know if you've never seen it. Because if you've ever seen it with your own eyes you would know you don't.

But that's OK. I've never seen anyone that knew this.

Scott, i'm just doing what your doing and i hear you do a great job. I really don't know why you do this.

What I teach is right and it works and you do not teach it unless you learned it from me.

When the new video Perfect Aim Advanced comes out you will understand what I am talking about. After this is out everyone will be able to figure out the whole aiming thing with no problem. And it is the way it is with everyone. We are all the same with the exception of the one eyed players.

Have a great day geno...............Just sticking up for what i know is right.

 

[Scott Lee]

Gene...It is 100% right...and I got it straight from my instructor that you admitted it to. You're correct that LOTS of players know nothing about this. It's not in any books. It is, however, virtually the same as what you teach...find the correct place to place your eyes to "see the shot". You've been teaching it for 3 years...we've been teaching it for more than 10. It's all good info, for the benefit of all players. That's all I'm saying. For some reason you have be "right", and everyone else "wrong". That's not the case. I've seen your dvd, and it was nothing that I didn't already know and teach. I'm not downplaying "all the testamonials from all the players that have never seen this anywhere". Like I said, it is not common knowledge...yet! Hopefully some day it will be! You have a great day too!

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

It's not good to use second hand info on the internet.

Make sure your info is 100% correct before you write it down.

I teach them How, what and why when it comes to aiming. It's more than just the dominant eye that some people don't have.

Look at all the testimonials Scott from all the players that have never seen this anywhere.

It's OK that you don't know this. How do you know what you don't know if you've never seen it. Because if you've ever seen it with your own eyes you would know you don't.

But that's OK. I've never seen anyone that knew this.

Scott, i'm just doing what your doing and i hear you do a great job. I really don't know why you do this.

What I teach is right and it works and you do not teach it unless you learned it from me.

When the new video Perfect Aim Advanced comes out you will understand what I am talking about. After this is out everyone will be able to figure out the whole aiming thing with no problem. And it is the way it is with everyone. We are all the same with the exception of the one eyed players.

Have a great day geno...............Just sticking up for what i know is right.

 

[iusedtoberich]

I know genos message can get old at times, but that's what happens when someone is passionate and keeps fighting for it. Genos been telling us about his aiming for 2 or 3 yrs now. This is the first I've heard that others have been teaching it for ten yrs. Frankly, I don't believe it.

I had a good lesson with Scott several yrs ago, and the aiming material was called SAM. it wasn't for me, but that's not relevant here. It was absolutely NOTHING like what geno teaches.

I think Joe Tucker was one of the first to really work on teaching to the masses different ways the eyes work. Most ppl before then were promoting either cue directly under dominant eye or directly between eyes.

Joe and now geno were both clearly instrumental in bringing eye alignment in the main discussion. Before that everyone at least on these forums was preaching stroking straight and not much else.

 

[SpiderWebComm]

I don't think Perfect Aim is all about "getting your eyes in the right spot to see the shot." There's more to it than that.

Perfect Aim is about placing your eyes at the outermost/innermost limit while still being able to address the CB. Essentially, forcing your head/eyes into a dominant/strong position to or away from the pocket, taking 1/2 of the errors out of the equation right out of the gate.

In fact, from this "dominant/strong position" you can slide into the center of the CB and just make the OB. Forget the contact point....that's a red herring.

I've always been a student of the game, learning as much as I could from anyone I could. Gene's information is unique and I've never heard anyone present eye positioning in the same light. "Eye placement to see the shot" isn't complete in regards to his information.

I'm pretty confident when Hal used to say to "poke your head out to see the outermost edge," his head position is the same as what Gene figured out.

Sweating contact points is bad information, I think... but that's just me.

I wish everyone would get along.