Technically speaking this is not actually true.
Efforts have been made to include billiards in the olympics since at least 1920, if not longer.
for proof click here
Who accredits and empowers the WPA?
- Thread starter dr9ball
- Start date
Technically speaking this is not actually true.
Efforts have been made to include billiards in the olympics since at least 1920, if not longer.
for proof click here
Organized efforts worldwide started with the WCBS formation in 1992....
from the WPA website
The World Pool-Billiard Association (WPA) is the international governing body for pocket billiards. The group was formed in Germany in November of 1987, as a result of the efforts of the European Pocket Billiard Federation. The Asian Pocket Billiard Union (APBU) was formed shortly after, and became the second member of the WPA. North America became the third member in 1990 and Oceania joined in 1992. The Australasian Pool Association represented Oceania in the WPA until 1999, until it was replaced by the Oceania Pocket Billiard Association (OPBA). It was also in 1999 that the Confederacion Panamerican de Billar (CPB) and the All African Pool Association (AAPA) joined the WPA and based upon this the WPA truly represents all corners of the world. The current WPA president is Ian Anderson of Australia.
The WPA is also one of the three member organizations of the World Confederation of Billiards Sports (WCBS), representing the billiard disciplines of pool, snooker and carom. The WCBS is the international umbrella organization that is a member of the International Olympic Committee (IOC).
After having had European Championships as the highest level of competition for many years, and being aware of the fact that many events were organized in the United States, many of the European players were becoming dissatisfied with the development of the sport in Europe and yearned for competition on a higher level. With knowledge of this, the idea came about to form a world organization.
At a European Pocket Billiard Federation (EPBF) Board meeting in Germany during November 1987, the idea again re-surfaced. In order to make this attempt possible, all Board members voluntarily donated money of their own to create a logo, proper letterheads and initiate proper communication with various parts of the world. Soon after the work began, letters were sent to all persons and/or organizations that were known.
Kazuo Fujima of Japan immediately replied that Asians are interested in founding a world body. Strengthened and encouraged by his reply, an invitation was sent out for the first General Assembly to take place in conjunction with the 1988 European Championships in Stockholm, Sweden. Mr. Fujima rapidly confirmed his attendance while no response was received from the USA. However, Mr. Paul Gerni appeared at the meeting to represent the USA. As a result of this meeting, a provisional Board consisting of Mr. Kazuo Fujima (Japan), Mr. Paul Gerni, (USA) Mr. Jorgen Sandman (Sweden) and Mr. Horst Vondenhoff (Germany) was created; each one given responsibilities to secure further development.
These efforts culminated in February 1990, when 48 players (32 men, 16 women, in separate divisions) participated in the inaugural WPA World Nine-Ball Championship in Bergheim, Germany. The event is now annual and is currently conducted in Qatar.
So with American players being dissatisfied with the development of the sport in the United States and yearning for World Championships held in the west the pendulum how now swung in the other direction...
The Asians and Europeans have accomplished their task. I have to think the BCA and Paul Gerni were lax in protecting the interests of the professional sport in the USA...
Should the events not relocate as do the Olympics? If a promoter here wants to put on the 2013 9ball Wold Championship can it be done? Are the events awarded or are they now entrenched in their current locals with their current promoters???
I understand that finding promoters that can generate the required added monies may be an issue but having your tournament crown the world champion has to help in garnering sponsorship...
What if Barry wants the 2013 US Open to be the World Championship event and with the title he can get 100k added?
Are World Title events now being held hostage never to be played in the West or maybe to move only if a current promoter removes themselves??
Maybe Fran or Jerry can clarify some of this... As it appears that the prime directive was/is to create big events for European and Asian players.
I think The BCA/Gerni was naive and short sighted. The US is now facing the same exact position that Europe and Asia were in... The events are now half way across this globe which makes it economically unfeasible for our players to attend...
I am not certain but I think that the Qatar Billiards Federation have signed up to host the WPA World 9 Ball until 2014 (may be 2013).
But after that time anyone can put forward a proposal to stage the event. You just have to come up with some money to back your bid.
Now this is where I disagree with the WPA policy. From 2000 until 2007 Matchroom
put on the event. From 2000 to 2003 it was held in the UK (Cardiff). It moved to Taiwan (Taipei and Kaohsiung) for two years then the Philippines in 2006 and 2007.
Matchroom ensured that the tournament was properly funded by securing in excess of ONE MILLION DOLLARS in sponsorship for each of these events. This meant that not only could they offer attractive prize money but their budget allowed them to produce a high quality product with back up services that such a major sporting event justifies.
Unfortunately, they were undermined by their former partners in the Philippines. Raya Sports decided to put on the World 10 Ball at a knockdown price and it was a disaster. But the die was cast. Matchroom refused to drop their standards and relinquished the right to promote the event and the WPA settled for a deal with Qatar for about one third of the figure that was required to do it Matchroom style.
Now our flagship event has become little more than a nice LOCAL tournament barely publicised outside the borders of Qatar. So if you want it to be held on US shores then start looking for somebody who is not looking to do the event on the cheap but will fund it as the prestige event that it is.
But after that time anyone can put forward a proposal to stage the event. You just have to come up with some money to back your bid.
Now this is where I disagree with the WPA policy. From 2000 until 2007 Matchroom
put on the event. From 2000 to 2003 it was held in the UK (Cardiff). It moved to Taiwan (Taipei and Kaohsiung) for two years then the Philippines in 2006 and 2007.
Matchroom ensured that the tournament was properly funded by securing in excess of ONE MILLION DOLLARS in sponsorship for each of these events. This meant that not only could they offer attractive prize money but their budget allowed them to produce a high quality product with back up services that such a major sporting event justifies.
Unfortunately, they were undermined by their former partners in the Philippines. Raya Sports decided to put on the World 10 Ball at a knockdown price and it was a disaster. But the die was cast. Matchroom refused to drop their standards and relinquished the right to promote the event and the WPA settled for a deal with Qatar for about one third of the figure that was required to do it Matchroom style.
Now our flagship event has become little more than a nice LOCAL tournament barely publicised outside the borders of Qatar. So if you want it to be held on US shores then start looking for somebody who is not looking to do the event on the cheap but will fund it as the prestige event that it is.
Right. But I think you may have missed my point.
You said:
And thats not exactly true. Because 'the organized efforts' began long before anyone in the WPA was even born.
Thanks for your understanding.
Mr Bond
My premise is that Organized worldwide attempts could only start with the formation of the WCBS... Which was formed at the bequest of the IOC so that all cue sports could organize under a single umbrella... This was a requirement to be taken seriously...
I understand the IOC was lobbied on several fronts from several organizations over the years prior to 1992.. I am sure snooker, billiards and pool all attempted entry but did so on their own... In an unorganized effort...
If there were existing alliances that lobbied on behalf of all disciplines I am truly in the dark... With your affiliation to the Museum you likely have more information and may be able to shed some light so to speak...
Why would we need the WCBS at all if the attempts already underway were not unorganized? Or was it more of trying to consider cuesports on the whole by the IOC than basing individual entry on having 3 disciplines lobby independently?
My premise is that Organized worldwide attempts could only start with the formation of the WCBS... Which was formed at the bequest of the IOC so that all cue sports could organize under a single umbrella... This was a requirement to be taken seriously...
I understand the IOC was lobbied on several fronts from several organizations over the years prior to 1992.. I am sure snooker, billiards and pool all attempted entry but did so on their own... In an unorganized effort...
If there were existing alliances that lobbied on behalf of all disciplines I am truly in the dark... With your affiliation to the Museum you likely have more information and may be able to shed some light so to speak...
Why would we need the WCBS at all if the attempts already underway were not unorganized? Or was it more of trying to consider cuesports on the whole by the IOC than basing individual entry on having 3 disciplines lobby independently?
See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/André_Gagnaux for a little bit about André Gagnaux who had tried for a long time prior to the WCBS to gain IOC recognition. I think that there had been very little effort -- maybe none at all -- from snooker and pool prior to 1990. When I first became aware of the efforts by Gagnaux and the UMB it was because 3-cushion competition (under the UMB) was not allowed to have prize money because Olympic athletes were still required to be amateur.
The BFUSA (carom organization in the US) was formed by Bob Byrne and others in 1966 so that we could have a national championship and send our champion to the World Championship. A parallel non-amateur US carom organization (the ABA) existed at the same time and the two eventually merged when the pretense of amateurism for Olympic athletes was abandoned and presumably the UMB dropped its amateur requirements.
At any rate, I think that Gagnaux was the major force prior to 1990. Perhaps that was because neither snooker nor pool would have been happy with the absence of "professionals" in the competition.
Thanks you goes out to both pro9dg and Bob Jewett.....
I appreciate any and all links and clarifications... Information is what changes opinions... While mine are not swaying much of yet, I am at least developing a better understand of how we got to where we are....
I appreciate any and all links and clarifications... Information is what changes opinions... While mine are not swaying much of yet, I am at least developing a better understand of how we got to where we are....
Renfro, I don't think it's accurate to look back without taking into consideration the pool environment back in those times.
First, you are correct that the IOC has made it clear (in the past and present) that they will only entertain correspondence from one billiard organization and that they refuse to distinguish between snooker, carom and pocket billiards. As far as the IOC is concerned, they are all cue sports and should be under one roof. That is the reason for the WCBS and why it still exists today.
In 1996, cue sports was officially recognized by the IOC, due to the existence of the WCBS, and the fact that the WCBS met the IOC requirements for inclusion. This allowed many countries to start receiving government funding for cue sports which eventually led to the large prize funds available today. With the exception of Matchroom, these championships today that offer hundreds of thousands of dollars in prize money are working in conjunction with their National Olympic Committees.
This is all due to the existence of the WCBS.
So, what does the existence of the WCBS do for the U.S.? Basically nothing, because there is no government funding for sports in the U.S.
Back in the early years of the WPA and well into the 90s, the continents took turns hosting World Championships. It was a disaster, because there was practically no prize money prior to IOC recognition. The men caught a break when Matchroom cut a deal with the WPA to host the men's World Championships. Unfortunately, the women had to suffer through no money in their world championships for years after, as Barry Hearn made it clear he had no interest whatsoever in women's events and he stayed true to his word.
So was there a conspiracy back in the 1980s - early 90s to bring billiards under the rule of Europe and Asia? Probably not a conspiracy, but I'm sure they knew they could benefit financially with a link to the IOC. I think everyone was thinking of themselves at that time and not about controlling the world.
First, you are correct that the IOC has made it clear (in the past and present) that they will only entertain correspondence from one billiard organization and that they refuse to distinguish between snooker, carom and pocket billiards. As far as the IOC is concerned, they are all cue sports and should be under one roof. That is the reason for the WCBS and why it still exists today.
In 1996, cue sports was officially recognized by the IOC, due to the existence of the WCBS, and the fact that the WCBS met the IOC requirements for inclusion. This allowed many countries to start receiving government funding for cue sports which eventually led to the large prize funds available today. With the exception of Matchroom, these championships today that offer hundreds of thousands of dollars in prize money are working in conjunction with their National Olympic Committees.
This is all due to the existence of the WCBS.
So, what does the existence of the WCBS do for the U.S.? Basically nothing, because there is no government funding for sports in the U.S.
Back in the early years of the WPA and well into the 90s, the continents took turns hosting World Championships. It was a disaster, because there was practically no prize money prior to IOC recognition. The men caught a break when Matchroom cut a deal with the WPA to host the men's World Championships. Unfortunately, the women had to suffer through no money in their world championships for years after, as Barry Hearn made it clear he had no interest whatsoever in women's events and he stayed true to his word.
So was there a conspiracy back in the 1980s - early 90s to bring billiards under the rule of Europe and Asia? Probably not a conspiracy, but I'm sure they knew they could benefit financially with a link to the IOC. I think everyone was thinking of themselves at that time and not about controlling the world.
Fran thank you for the insight... At the time I think the BCA was still supporting professional pool and may have fully intended to create travel funds and host events here.... You would think that with all the money the US govt shells out that the Olympics sports would be on their list...
Next question... Could an organization like the EPBF be formed in the US and take on the duties and direction that the BCA seems to be unable to accomplish??? Or does the lack of govt funding play a role in this as the EBPF is now financially supported by member countries because of this Olympic sport consideration????
Next question... Could an organization like the EPBF be formed in the US and take on the duties and direction that the BCA seems to be unable to accomplish??? Or does the lack of govt funding play a role in this as the EBPF is now financially supported by member countries because of this Olympic sport consideration????
I know that this is directed at Fran but let me take a shot at it.
The EPBF is a bottom up sort of organization in that it is formed out of the memberships of each city club --> regional org ---> state org --> national org ---> EPBF.
In the USA the players are actually not "represented" through any sort of elections. There are four major pool leagues and several minor ones competing for the player's business and loyalty. None of these leagues with the EXCEPTION of the BCAPL under Mark Griffin has made any attempt to work together to represent amateur pool or even pro pool in a cooperative way.
One thing about the EPBF, at least this applies to Germany, is that a player who starts in the lowest in-house club league plays by the SAME RULES as the top tier players competing in the European Championships. The rules don't change from event to event at the promoter's whim.
A player has a clear path in Germany to go from beginner to professional. No one gets to simply walk into the European Championships and sign up. There is NO equivalent North American Championships that are ONLY open to North American players. No USA National Championships, no path from beginner to pro that is consistent in the USA.
In Germany you have to earn the right to play in the German Championships. Being the club champion in Maxie's Treff in Crailsheim won't get you there. There are no qualifier walk-ons. No, you have to win certain events at certain levels to get your spot in the German Championships. And to get to the European Championships you have to be nominated by the Geman association and that is based on your national ranking.
At least this is how it was when I lived and played there. Now I don't know how it is but I suspect it's not much different.
In the USA I think that there are unfortunately too many competing interests. Plus the BCA was a financial pillar to the WPA in the beginning per my information so it's highly doubtful that any other entity would be recognized by the WPA as the voting member of the WPA without the BCA's blessing.
I think that a non-profit group should be formed and a small amount, like a .25ct per player per week should go to this group for the governance of amateur and professional billiards. The ONLY purpose of this group is to provide a clear path from amateur to pro. They should stage events from amateur to pro with a clear ranking list all the way to the top. And they should have a way to incorporate the existing league's players and insert them into the system according to their ability.
But THAT will NEVER happen. And the USA will NEVER have a local-regional-state-national structured organization like Germany. In Germany many clubs are formed out of players coming together as a group and investing in the clubhouse and tables. They are formed as non-profits and exist purely for the sport. This will never happen in the USA. Other times the clubs are formed and given breaks in the pool room that they play out of. This is more likely as it's closer to the league aspect America has now.
Well that's my take on it.
John Thank you for your observations from the time you were in Germany... I think that I will see if I can corner Ralf this week and have a long talk....
I have to disagree with JB on whether a US version of the EPBF model can be emulated. I am one of those people who believes that nothing is impossible, but I don't think that this is even difficult.
The EPBF have roughly the same number of members countries as there are American States. Through the medium of AZ Forums it would not be impossible to recruit one person from every State in the Union and for that person to recruit one representative of every major city within that State.
Just do the maths now.
50 x 20 = 1000
1000 people capable of bringing 50 players into the fold. Now 50,000 gives you some muscle with sponsors. All you need is fror someone to pick up the baton and run with it. Renfro - Are you the pool Messiah?
The EPBF have roughly the same number of members countries as there are American States. Through the medium of AZ Forums it would not be impossible to recruit one person from every State in the Union and for that person to recruit one representative of every major city within that State.
Just do the maths now.
50 x 20 = 1000
1000 people capable of bringing 50 players into the fold. Now 50,000 gives you some muscle with sponsors. All you need is fror someone to pick up the baton and run with it. Renfro - Are you the pool Messiah?
What would be the benefit of establishing an EPBF-type organization in the U.S.?
I think that before anyone establishes whether or not it could be done, shouldn't we establish whether or not it should be done? What would be it's purpose and how would it improve the sport in the U.S.?
I think that before anyone establishes whether or not it could be done, shouldn't we establish whether or not it should be done? What would be it's purpose and how would it improve the sport in the U.S.?
And I respectfully disagree with your disagreement. While not impossible it's highly improbable given the contentious climate in American pool. The reason I call the EPBF a bottom-up organization is because at every level from the BOTTOM up the representatives are elected and sent to govern pool in their region and they further send reps up the line to do the same all the way to the EPBF. So the EPBF as much as possible governs pool on the continental level BUT does not issue top-down decrees that fundamentally change the way pool is played throughout the system. The reps at the EPBF level are truly reps from the players.Since the USA does not have chartered clubs like Germany does (I don't know how it works in any other European country) I don't see how any one person from a US state or a city could be said to represent all the players from that state/city. Every local league is OWNED by one person/partnership. Very very few of them are player-owned and operated. Most are ruled by one person. People don't get elected to run them.
And I as I mentioned previously there are four main leagues which can each count say 30,000-250,000 players in their systems. Add to that several smaller leagues and you have a situation where all these private organizations are vying for the loyalties and wallets of the players. So there is no way that any single person can speak for all the players under all these groups without active consent of the groups. And THAT ain't happening any time soon as most of them HATE each other. Each group thinks that they have the best solution for how to play pool as a social and competitive activity.
You can go from league to league even under the SAME national brand and be faced with different rules of play.
In Germany the raw beginner playing at the club level can move to any other part of Germany and fit right in with the club system and rules.
Personally I think both systems have merit. The European system is built more along the sporting aspect and follows the soccer model. The American system comes from the fact that pool is split between pool rooms and bars with coin-op tables.
We could and should have a national body similar to the EPBF for the reasons I laid out previously. But it's not going to happen from the bottom up as in Europe because we already have strong national organizations that effective control "amateur" pool in the USA. (and notice I didn't even include the many "tours" out there).
The major benefit to a national organization that had the promotion of pool as it's goal would be to establish and run world class events like the European Championships and possibly a tour like the EuroTour. With a HUGE base of players to contribute just .25cts a week such an organization would be constantly funded and so could do a lot of great things. Since money makes money with the right leadership pool could be super strong in the USA.
BUT - forget it. Hate, jealousy, shortsightedness, and plain old stupidity on the parts of many of the principals will never allow it to come to pass. Not impossible - but HIGHLY improbable.
Quote JBCUES"....The ONLY purpose of this group is to provide a clear path from amateur to pro. They should stage events from amateur to pro with a clear ranking list all the way to the top. And they should have a way to incorporate the existing league's players and insert them into the system according to their ability."
Regarding the above suggestion for forming an EPBF-like organization in the U.S.... is the above the only purpose that the EPBF serves in Europe or does it serve other purposes?
My understanding of the EPBF is that they are in complete control of all of pool in all of Europe. Is that what you're saying we need in the U.S.? If not, how would you propose a variation on that type of organization? What would be different, if anything?
Regarding the above suggestion for forming an EPBF-like organization in the U.S.... is the above the only purpose that the EPBF serves in Europe or does it serve other purposes?
My understanding of the EPBF is that they are in complete control of all of pool in all of Europe. Is that what you're saying we need in the U.S.? If not, how would you propose a variation on that type of organization? What would be different, if anything?
The Open starts tomorrow and I intend to talk to every Euro player I can... I could see the battle being fought on a state by state basis....
The feedback and information so far has been priceless... I am sure many AZBers have no clue as to what the rest of the world is doing. I have an idea and some understanding but every post has shown me exactly how much I don't know and man would I like to........
Will be around off and on all week and sad to say my lottery numbers didn't hit so I don't think I am going directly to messiah without passing go......
The feedback and information so far has been priceless... I am sure many AZBers have no clue as to what the rest of the world is doing. I have an idea and some understanding but every post has shown me exactly how much I don't know and man would I like to........
Will be around off and on all week and sad to say my lottery numbers didn't hit so I don't think I am going directly to messiah without passing go......
Just recently have I realized how ignorant about pool I have been....and I know a lot of real, broke pool players. I have no idea what the WPA is, and why pool was left out of Olympic sports....but it should not be given just a spec of hope....2020? Really?....and the sad thing is WE have no way of speeding up the process until pool players acquire a desire to move forward as a group. And man are we a large group.
I still don't know which organization does what.
I still don't know which organization does what.
The EPBF governs pool at the continental level. What that means is that it simply keeps the order between countries, makes sure that the member countries abide by the agreements, runs the EuroTour and the European championships and allocates spots in WPA events in cooperation with it's members. It is the end point in Europe for any player wishing to compete on the world stage in WPA events. It does not explicitly build the path from beginner to pro but it provides the glue that ties all the country organizations into a cohesive group that respects the rules and path to higher level competiton.
I don't know that they are in complete control. Certainly the member countries have some autonomy as to how they structure their systems to effective rank their players and send their best upstream. But they are in complete control over pool at the continental level. They have or have had the power to ban players from WPA events and continental level events.
But yes, in the USA we need ONE strong organization to govern pool from amateur to pro. You can have plenty of other organizations existing in tandem but as far as the WPA goes we need an EPBF style organization in the USA.
1) Rome wasn't built in a day.
2) Co-operation between all existing organisations is never going to happen.
So an EPBF style model could be a way to make the wagon wheel turn.
One clearly worded Mission Statement and the 1000 missionaries I mentioned earlier and you could have an organisation with enough freshness and enthusiasm to stop pool in the USA going down the tubes. [I can probably think of 50-60 already including many AZers. Not many of them would struggle to get 50-100 players]
Then all you have to do is convince the WPA that they truly represent the majority of the USA's competitive players and the other organisations with vested interest do not.
It would be an arduous but not impossible task. Go Renfro Go!
But remember - You will never GET what you want unless you KNOW what you want
2) Co-operation between all existing organisations is never going to happen.
So an EPBF style model could be a way to make the wagon wheel turn.
One clearly worded Mission Statement and the 1000 missionaries I mentioned earlier and you could have an organisation with enough freshness and enthusiasm to stop pool in the USA going down the tubes. [I can probably think of 50-60 already including many AZers. Not many of them would struggle to get 50-100 players]
Then all you have to do is convince the WPA that they truly represent the majority of the USA's competitive players and the other organisations with vested interest do not.
It would be an arduous but not impossible task. Go Renfro Go!
But remember - You will never GET what you want unless you KNOW what you want
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Well, the first thing they need to learn is how to spell "oragnization." That's a start!
