Mosconi on aiming .

[Bob Jewett]

Well, maybe you're right Bob, but if Willie and and the Deacon didn't know about collision induced throw perhaps there was no such thing back then because they sure didn't miss many balls.

I think they didn't miss much because they did not fill their heads with bogus systems. Crane prided himself on precise pocketing, so whatever he was doing it got the ball to the center of the pocket.

 

[Ratta]

Perhaps they just used their brain more efficiently and don t put themselves into too many pitfalls- think they had a big advantage-there was no internet and they were forced to put hard work to increase their abilities-and furthermore to use self-earned knowledge.

The holy gral still wasn found from what i heard....

 

[SJDinPHX]

I think they didn't miss much because they did not fill their heads with bogus systems. Crane prided himself on precise pocketing, so whatever he was doing it got the ball to the center of the pocket.

Well, ChicagoRJ, and all the other ASS guys...Isn't this basically what Lou and I, and many, many others, have been saying all along ?....Fortunately, this bit of wisdom, came from one of the most respected members, of this, or any other pool forum.

"I come not to bury Ceasar, but to praise him"...OR in the same vein, "fighting is for kids, and dogs" !

It is well known, that if you have a "system" for beating the odds in Las Vegas, they will pay your air fare, send a limo to pick you up at the airport, and comp your room, food and drinks, and anything else you desire. (if you have enough disposable $$$$$$)..

Simply put, there are "NO SHORTCUT'S" for playing pool at its highest level. Refine your basics, and if you have the necessary talent... you'll be playing pool like Efren, or golf like Jack and Arnie...Shortcuts are for dreamer's..(and John Barton).. :idea:

PS..Not to say, all "aiming systems" are bogus...they may very well elevate a newbie (or an APA 2, to an APA3 or 4...Those ranks,
are for people who have nowhere to go but UP. This is NOT meant to demean or belittle them, just being realistic. They can have just as much fun at the game (maybe more) than a top player... Or, to put it even more simply for the ASS guys,
... you cannot make "a silk purse, out of a sow's ear...Just as you "cannot make a racing thoroughbred, out of a plow horse"...

I think Mark Twain or Will Rogers said those pearls of wisdom...But what did they know about pool ?..

 

[Ratta]

I would certainly agree. I just found it interesting how players naturally adjust to conditions that they wouldn't necessarily agree were occuring-even at that level.

Many are using the word "naturally"- Imo and i m sure that they just were able to recall the correct picture at the right moment, and because of practicing years it worked for them, like it works today for the great players. They all have a great repeatable stroke, they re able to deliver the cueball to the point they are aming for. Additional the had great knowledge about the whole game.
That s all.
Naturally just a wrong vocabulary -no offense from my side. But if you hit a ball a hundredthousand times.....you usualy know what happens if you hit it with different speeds or different kinds of english-if not....i would say you never really practiced the way it should be.

lg

Ingo

 

[SUPERSTAR]

I almost wish Mosconi had gotten up there and explained the "lights reflected off the object ball" system.
Damn man, that system works GREAT!

But you know those pros. It's all disinformation to protect their secrets and winning edge.

Can't let that light reflection system get out in the open. That stuff is LETHAL!

 

[Ratta]

Hm,

that would be funny i would like to see the face of the tournament-director who would have to answer all those questions before booking about the positions of the table lights, how the room is lighted, if there are windows in near of tables (daylight!!!), angles of the lights etc etc. .......
lol...........

 

[SJDinPHX]

Originally Posted by Bob Jewett
I think they didn't miss much because they did not fill their heads with bogus systems. Crane prided himself on precise pocketing, so whatever he was doing it got the ball to the center of the pocket.

Well, ChicagoRJ, and all the other ASS guys...Isn't this basically what Lou and I, and many, many others, have been saying all along ?....Fortunately, this bit of wisdom came from one of the most respected members, of this, or any other pool forum.

"I come not to bury Ceasar, but to praise him"...OR in the same vein, "fighting is for kids, and dogs" !

It is well known, that if you have a "system" for beating the odds in Las Vegas, they will pay your air fare, send a limo to the airport, and comp your room, food and drinks, and anything else you desire. (if you have enough disposable $$$$$$)..

Simply put, there are "NO SHORTCUT'S" for playing pool at its highest level. Refine your basics, and "if you have the necessary talent". you'll be playing pool like Efren, or like Jack and Arnie played golf...Shortcuts are for dreamer's..(and John Barton).. :idea:

PS..Not to say, all "aiming systems" are bogus...they may very well elevate a newbie (or an APA 2, to an APA3 or 4...Those ranks,
are for people who have nowhere to go but UP. Not belittling them, just being realistic. Or, to put it even more simply for the ASS guys,
... you cannot make "a silk purse, out of a sow's ear...Just as you "cannot make a racing thourghbred, out of a plow horse"...
I think Mark Twain or Will Rogers said those pearls of wisdom...But what did they know about pool ?..

One bump for the "aiming system" crew..They may be asleep, as most live in the east...(or far east)

 

[JB Cases]

It is well known, that if you have a "system" for beating the odds in Las Vegas, they will pay your air fare, send a limo to pick you up at the airport, and comp your room, food and drinks, and anything else you desire. (if you have enough disposable $$$$$$)..

Last time heard blackjack card counters are not "welcome" in any casino in Las Vegas. Has the policy changed?

 

[Jaden]

When I saw SJD's post I was going to post the same thing...

Last time heard blackjack card counters are not "welcome" in any casino in Las Vegas. Has the policy changed?

Read the book "21" if you think there are no systems to beat vegas... Then again there are people that just have a natural talent for cards or for reading people when it comes to poker and they don't have to learn any systems...

It's the same in every sport. There are those that are naturally talented and there are those that have to work really hard to get to the top. For most people the best key to success is learning all of the knowledge you can and use the most methodical approach with tons of practice...

No matter who espouses that idea though will always run into the naturally talented who say that it's bogus.

I remember thinking that Efren was full of Sheit about BHE when he taught it to me.

Now I've just decided to go back to it and it's doing wonders for my consistency on the difficult high english shots.

JAden

 

[JB Cases]

Simply put, there are "NO SHORTCUT'S" for playing pool at its highest level. Refine your basics, and if you have the necessary talent... you'll be playing pool like Efren, or golf like Jack and Arnie...Shortcuts are for dreamer's..(and John Barton).. :idea:

Well I would take Stan Shuffet's recent results at the US Open. Not bad for a system user.

Not one system advocate on this forum has EVER said that aiming systems are a shortcut to greatness. Not one, not ever, never.

But that doesn't stop you from acting they did.

Ghost Ball is also an aiming "system" it has been taught by the great players from all ages.

An aiming system is merely a way to line up on the ball. No more no less. Results are immediately clear. Did the ball go or not?

Can't get much simpler than that.

Maybe you aren't aware of the new research out there on "talent"? We had a nice long and congenial thread about it (probably because you weren't there) a few weeks ago. Basically the research indicates that what you call talent is actually experience+time. Essentially most of the researchers interviewed for the books we discussed said that the research shows that the overwhelming reason for great performance is putting in more quality time.

Now you seem to think that quality time is.........well you see Dick I really don't know. For all of your greatness I can't recall you ever prescribing the best way to get good.

Oh I see, "refine your basics". So let me get this straight. If we take say the top 20 players and analyze their styles you would say that all of them have the same approach to the shot, same type of way to get down on the ball, same body position, same warm up strokes, same arm movements prior to hitting the balls?

I am asking because I'd love to know what you think are the ideal basics we should be refining?

And what do you say to the guy who refines his basics but still misses more shots than he should for as pretty a stroke and as solid a stance as he has? What would your advice to that guy be?

Would you tell him to quit? Sorry pal, your stroke is great, your stance is textbook, but you just don't have the "talent"? Is that what you would tell him?

 

[SJDinPHX]

Last time heard blackjack card counters are not "welcome" in any casino in Las Vegas. Has the policy changed?

John, (and Jaden)

Whales (AKA hi $$$ go-off suckers) are not "card counter's"...They are ultra wealthy individuals, who helped Vegas become what it is..(but may not be much longer)...Guys like Steve Wynn are hedging their bets, and building in Macao now. (no Indian casinos to compete with)

Orientals still come over, but they go to the Grand Canyon, or Pebble Beach, and don't even stop by Vegas anymore.

 

[JB Cases]

I remember thinking that Efren was full of Sheit about BHE when he taught it to me.

Heretic! How dare you say that a professional player uses any sort of method not on SJD's list of proper ways to play pool.

Now someone will have to go wake up Efren and tell him his name is being used on the forum by bangers.

SJD will tell us in ten minutes that you are full of crap and Efren doesn't use BHE it's all "feel" and it's always been feel and will always be feel.

When will you learn to shut up about things that pro players tell you. You're not supposed to share that with the forum and out them. They have to sign a blood oath never to reveal what they do when SJD admits them to the fraternity of world class players. Anything they SAY they do is a lie and SJD will denounce them as liars for money in order to keep you from believing whatever they are endorsing.

So keep it quiet. We don't want them hunted down and castrated by SJD and his minions for telling you something to help you get better.

Shhhhhh..............

 

[JB Cases]

John, (and Jaden)

Whales (AKA hi $$$ go-off suckers) are not "card counter's"...They are ultra wealthy individuals, who helped Vegas become what it is..(but may not be much longer)...Guys like Steve Wynn are hedging their bets, and building in Macao now. (no Indian casinos to compete with)

Orientals still come over, but they go to the Grand Canyon, or Pebble Beach, and don't even stop by Vegas anymore.

We know what whales are Dick. You misspoke though. And IF a "whale" were an expert card counter then he would not be allowed to play blackjack in any casino anywhere on the Earth.

What in the world does Macao's casinos have to do with the discussion?

Let's see, Mosconi revealed that you should look for the contact point on an obvious video made for raw beginners in the twilight of his life. Had nothing at all to do with advanced pool. That's like asking Morgan Freeman about acting and he says practice your emotions. Duh??

In the intervening 30 years since the video was made (I am guessing it's about 30 years old) people have figured out a lot more stuff about how pool works. Reference SJM and Bob Jewett talking about CIT which Mike Sigel denies even exists.

Now, the fact of is is that there are systems to do certain things on the pool table. There are systems to bank, systems to kick, and systems to pocket balls. Like it or not they exist.

And they work.

So you can continue to be the old grouch complaining about how you had to work hard to get good or you can just accept that it's not 1962 anymore and this is the internet age where people talk about and try out stuff they discovered.

Darren Appleton says he uses an aiming system. Shane Van Boeing said he uses one. Stevie Moore say he uses one.

So using your casino analogy can these players get their airfare, hotel and meals comped to come and gamble with all the other players in the world who you think are pure feel players?

Pick any player you want, Orcullo, Hatch, Reyes, whomever you want. Stevie is excluded because his head is not in the game right now although I think he can hang with anyone. So that leaves me Darren and Shane. If you want to pay all the expenses then I will add my $10,000 to what ever bankroll they bring to the table and they can play anyone you want.

Are you willing to bet against these two since you say aiming systems are for suckers?

Don't think I am going to let you forget that you called Darren Appleton a liar on this forum.

 

[SJDinPHX]

Well I would take Stan Shuffet's recent results at the US Open. Not bad for a system user.
Not bad at all, I suppose he coulddn't play a lick, 'til he developed a system..Which by the way, I wish him every success at.

Not one system advocate on this forum has EVER said that aiming systems are a shortcut to greatness. Not one, not ever, never.
You have always had trouble discerning greatness, and being a good, solid player.

But that doesn't stop you from acting they did.

Ghost Ball is also an aiming "system" it has been taught by the great players from all ages.
You were not even born, when I learned about 'ghost ball' stuff,,too distracting for my taste.

An aiming system is merely a way to line up on the ball. No more no less. Results are immediately clear. Did the ball go or not?

Can't get much simpler than that.
Then why is it NO one can explain it ?

Maybe you aren't aware of the new research out there on "talent"? We had a nice long and congenial thread about it (probably because you weren't there) a few weeks ago. Basically the research indicates that what you call talent is actually experience+time. Essentially most of the researchers interviewed for the books we discussed said that the research shows that the overwhelming reason for great performance is putting in more quality time.
No argument there !

Now you seem to think that quality time is.........well you see Dick I really don't know. For all of your greatness I can't recall you ever prescribing the best way to get good.
Thats because NO one can tell YOU, ANYTHING !

Oh I see, "refine your basics". So let me get this straight. If we take say the top 20 players and analyze their styles you would say that all of them have the same approach to the shot, same type of way to get down on the ball, same body position, same warm up strokes, same arm movements prior to hitting the balls?
No more so than a golfer like Jim Furek (sp) He does a lot wrong 'style-wise' but he's on the money when he pulls the trigger...I would compare him to Allen Hopkins in pool..Different strokes for different folks

I am asking because I'd love to know what you think are the ideal basics we should be refining?
A dependable, repeatable stroke

And what do you say to the guy who refines his basics but still misses more shots than he should for as pretty a stroke and as solid a stance as he has? What would your advice to that guy be?
Try Bowling !!!

Would you tell him to quit? Sorry pal, your stroke is great, your stance is textbook, but you just don't have the "talent"?
...In a heartbeat (if he were a friend)

I worked very hard, for very long, at the game of golf, 'til I realized, I had just taken up the game too late in life. (about 30) I soon saw I would never be a scratch golfer, so I lost interest. (except for the gambling side of it)
John, if you can tell me, as much as you've been around pool, that you haven't see dozens of guy's, who really love the game (and maybe started young enough too) but just plain could never master it. I know I've met hundreds.

I enjoy this kind of give and take...Lets not get into name calling etc. and keep on track as best we can..

 

[Fast Lenny]

I use an aiming method and it has helped me improve my game, I was taught this by one of the best players in my state. I do not have any natural ability I do not think for the game, some do but most do not. I believe Dick is one of those guys who is a natural when it comes to pool. Shane says he uses a method called stick aiming, I believe that is the shaft method which is similar/same to what I learned this past year. Shane is not selling an aiming product or endorsing anybody's system so what reason would he have to say that?

I just never had the natural ability to pocket balls by feel with consistency and needed a guide to get me going, whether its fools gold or not, it works for this fool. I know I will never be a champion player, if I become a shortstop I would be okay with that as I only started pool at 25, I just turned 32. The big thing for me is enjoying the game and the better you play the more fun it is, the more pleasure comes from the game when your making great shots, playing solid and winning.

 

[SJDinPHX]

Don't think I am going to let you forget that you called Darren Appleton a liar on this forum.

John you are starting to get carried away again...If you can dredge up that thread, (that you probably had yanked)...
I will give you 10K, if you can find ANYWHERE, I ever called Darren, or anyone else a 'LIAR'...So what does that make YOU ?
I offered you a little bit of an olive branch, in my previous post...but you were busy hammering away on another tirade... So if it's all the same to you, I'll just pass on your little pissing contests...I really feel they are beneath me anyway.

They make me feel like I am the only healthy person in a "Special Olympics" race. I don't want you to accuse me of taking advantage of you.

 

[Ratta]

BHE is always *by feel* and practicing- you just have to know your shaft/material. And this happens just thru practicing.
For BHE there cannot be a 100% description how to use it etc. - someone can show you how it works FOR HIM and how he can train on it until it works.

lg
Ingo

 

[ThePoliteSniper]

I thought, contactpoint to contactpoint doesn't work because of CIT.
I'm confused.

 

[cookie man]

I think they didn't miss much because they did not fill their heads with bogus systems. Crane prided himself on precise pocketing, so whatever he was doing it got the ball to the center of the pocket.

Do you think all aiming systems are bogus?

 

[Ratta]

Sure not Cookie-Man- everyone uses an aiming-system.