Thanks for your followup. I think I now have a better understanding of what you're saying. And, obviously, you may be right. We'll see how it all plays out. I'm sure we both want the same for the sport and its future.
Mark Griffin TAR Interview - My Thoughts
- Thread starter sjm
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Thanks for your followup. I think I now have a better understanding of what you're saying. And, obviously, you may be right. We'll see how it all plays out. I'm sure we both want the same for the sport and its future.
Yes, and good pool players should also eat their peas. Peas are good for them. The fact is, the better a player gets, the more he hates Eight-Ball. Only the good player decides what he likes and what he will play. No one decides for him.
A man's opinion is worth what he is willing to bet on it. Mark bets his money, time, and effort on Ten-Ball. His opinion is very valuable. He is living his dream.
That is not a fact at all...
I disagree. Good players may prefer some games over others, but they will be happy to play any game that offers sufficient financial incentive.
In my view, the pro pool product's marketability is not nearly maximized in quality by sticking with ten ball, a game that few amateurs play, although I'd much rather see ten ball than bonus ball.
I don't much care what the pros wish to play. The IPT experiment showed that pro players can and will choose 8-ball if that's where the money is. Many pro players are about to choose bonus ball, a total offense game that couldn't be more different from what the amateurs play, because bonus ball may be where the money lies.
Ultimately, what game the pros want to play is a trivial matter. Pool as packaged is not selling, and Mark and Justin make it clear that income prospects for event producers are very poor right now.
So while it's true that event producers can package the pro pool product as they please because it's their money at stake, the truth today is that giving the pros the game they want isn't a profitable course of action.
Mark makes it clear that he feels the pro and amateur ranks need each other to move the sport in a positive direction. I think he's right, but right now, as Justin noted, there is a great disconnect between the pro and amatuer ranks.
Want to know how league players feel about the pros right now? Here's an excerpt from a post earlier in the thread.
Right now, Jason and many other league players I've met don't see any reason to support the pros and recognize the pros as a group not wanting to help themselves. This year, right here on AZB, many a league player watched on the sidelines as the ABP publicly tried to strong-arm the pool promoters. No, the league players don't relate and are not very impressed by the pool professionals right now.
A switch to eight ball, a game that is well known and well loved by amateur players, is one way to make amateurs care more about pro pool.
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Maybe the answer is too obvious, but may I ask? Justin, you talk to these players all the time. Have you ever asked them about 8-ball, or had it come up in discussion before?
Most guys I know will play whatever pays the most. Obviously. Give them their choice and its usually 10 ball. Unless the guy they are playing has a great ten ball break then they want to play one pocket....or the dude is a great one pocket player in which case they want to play bar table 8 ball...or......
10 ball is the game right now, but the top guys are playing pool for a living which means if the money is right they will play just about anything within reason.
I have no doubt you could draw top guys to an 8 Ball tour with $25k or more added stops. From a business perspective of both the players and promoters it doesnt really matter what either one likes that much as long as the spectators and sponsors like it.
I think Mark may already be on to something in his conception of the US Open 8-ball, as metnioned in the TAR interview, to coincide with the BCAPL championships in July 2013. What scares me, however, is that the pros will demand that the rules amateurs use for eight ball be scrapped in favor of something they prefer, which might be a turnoff for would-be amateur attendees. Show the amateurs the game they play and play it their way ---- then show them how it's done by the most skilled players in the world. Then, they might actually care.
The amateurs are more interested in watching or playing 8-ball and 9-ball; whereas, the pros are more interested in playing 9-ball or 10-ball.
Given the market segmentation, it may be easier to attract corporate sponsors at the amateur level than at the professional level. Mark Griffen mentioned during the podcast that amateur level pool leagues are actually thriving and doing very well. If we can increase corporate sponsorship at the amateur level, in time we may be able to increase sponsorship at the professional level too.
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Most guys I know will play whatever pays the most. Obviously. Give them their choice and its usually 10 ball. Unless the guy they are playing has a great ten ball break then they want to play one pocket....or the dude is a great one pocket player in which case they want to play bar table 8 ball...or......
10 ball is the game right now, but the top guys are playing pool for a living which means if the money is right they will play just about anything within reason.
I have no doubt you could draw top guys to an 8 Ball tour with $25k or more added stops. From a business perspective of both the players and promoters it doesnt really matter what either one likes that much as long as the spectators and sponsors like it.
This is what I expected, and makes a lot of sense.
Thanks for the reply.
The beauty of producing an 8 ball venue is all of America ''Knows'' & ''Understands'' this game in some Form or format. The expression ''Behind the 8-Ball'' or something similar....is used regularly in our Society to connotate different situations and challenges before us.
Since the game is Stripes and Solids (Have the Belguims make it an American Ball set for 8 ball consisting of SRIPES & STARS or just Solids and Strips with NO numbers except the 8-Ball). In Snooker it's Reds and Numbered balls, its simplicity is great for the audience. The balls ''in one form or another....SHOULD be changed to accomodate TV production and the business model to maXimize its allure....Simplify....
I think TAR is important and could be one avenue where pro 8-ball could easily be experimented with. Like, TAR 24, Appleton vs SVB on the TAR 9-foot Diamond with the Fatboy rails, 3 races to 20, one each day, each race for $5000, live on PPV.
I cannot see how those two players playing 8-ball would not bring in the viewers and create a ton of buzz in the action room given how they both play the game. Appleton, 2-time straight US Open champ still states that 8-ball is his best game, SVB is a monster 8-ball player and generally awesome money player who just beat Alex. This match would drum up alot of interest IMO and 3 races to 20 on that tight diamond would be a good test to see how two of the top pros in the world do in the game, if we see 7-packs and the like, how much tactical play is involved, how the break works, ect...
I don't think the pros have a whole lot of issues with the rules the BCAPL employs, almost all of the top pros played in the Grand Masters the last time I was in Vegas with the same rules as the amature levels. Dennis Orcullo, SVB, Ralf, Thorsten, ect... they were all there and playing, on the bar box no less.
The BCAPL rules are well suited rules for the pro game and amature game alike. Small questions such as "should the cueball be on the line off a foul break or should it be ball in hand?" can be dealt with, and if you change it for one group (pro or amature) then you simply change it for both. The amatures have dealt with small changes in the rules over the years such as that as the game gets tweaked and people try to improve on it.
And, lets face it this is Mark Griffin and if he has a $25k added 8-ball tournament and the pros whine about rules and try to demand changes I think he made pretty clear in that interview how much power he gives the pros to demand changes in his events.
It took me all of a week to fall in love with the red and yellow 2-shot ball sets in Australia. No stripes or solids, there were 7 yellow balls, 7 red balls, and a black ball, it was a set of balls made solely for 8-ball. In the short term it might confuse the public to use a new set of balls like that on American soil, but if the game catches on and gets a following it would be easy to introduce the specific ball sets into the tour at a later time.
Once again, the answer is probably obvious, but may I ask another question? Without the balls being numbered, what do you do when calling a ball for a particular pocket, especially if you have more than one of your grouped closely together? Do you walk over and point at that specific ball, for clarification?
Other than that issue, it sounds fine to me.
You know what, I am not sure I remember... I am almost thinking that 2-shot was not called ball and that definately is NOT something I would like in a pro tour. The 2 shot tables have tiny pockets so flukes are extremely unlikely.
Here is the 2006 world finals, Darren Appleton vs Mark Selby, 2-shot at it's absolute peak of play.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3uSgGTvWzBk
I caught the pcast at its end so I didn't get much. This last year on AZB, I've learned quite a few things about pool I had no idea about, and my entire life has been in the midst of it. This is what I learned:
1. Pool lacks an organization that can elevate its awareness to the mainstream. BUT, the IPT was brilliantly put together, properly funded, and was ready to go. Even though it went down in flames, anyone could've picked it up and run with it. ANYONE.
2. League players are the biggest population of pool players. Every city has a dozen pool leagues all contributing money weekly to organize their leisure get together. These weekly events help support your local poolhall and BCA people.
......I don't even know where I'm going with this. I can imagine that even if pool gets popularized by media....it dosen't mean my uncle is going to get off his a$$, buy a custom cue, and train his life away to become a great player.
What we need is an org. that exist with sole purpose of producing major events.
1. Pool lacks an organization that can elevate its awareness to the mainstream. BUT, the IPT was brilliantly put together, properly funded, and was ready to go. Even though it went down in flames, anyone could've picked it up and run with it. ANYONE.
2. League players are the biggest population of pool players. Every city has a dozen pool leagues all contributing money weekly to organize their leisure get together. These weekly events help support your local poolhall and BCA people.
......I don't even know where I'm going with this. I can imagine that even if pool gets popularized by media....it dosen't mean my uncle is going to get off his a$$, buy a custom cue, and train his life away to become a great player.
What we need is an org. that exist with sole purpose of producing major events.
Although your other statement were pretty accurate, I must disagree here. KT has deep pockets and that is why nobody else can just pick it up and run with it. KT's business model failed (so he says) because of the new internet gambling laws put in place by the Bush administration. His primary revenue stream was based on internet gambling.
Seems like the reds in Snooker work, one would think this situation has come up in their discipline. Then, why not put an itty bitty number somewhere on the ball if needed?
Sorry for my ignorance, but I haven't ever watched any snooker, let alone know it's rules. (I know, there is a ton of it on the web. I will get to it at some point, when I have some extra time.) So I don't know how or why that works for them.
My only point was in most every organized form of 8-ball, you need to call the pocket. (Other than APA, which I'm off to play in a few minutes, heh hehh.) I simply wanted clarification on how Celtic would handle that part of the game of 8-ball, under his scenario of just using solidly colored balls. And again, it would likely only come up when shooting at two balls that were close to one another.
Not trying to tear his idea down. Sincerely curious.