Mark Griffin TAR Interview - My Thoughts

The most popular mousetrap is the Victor model, which first was introduced in 1897. It has not changed fundamentally. There are two major breakthroughs, however, in the mousetrap industry since then: cheese-scented plastic and marketing. It's the marketing aspect that will bring success. You just have to know *who* to market to, especially in this pool world. This is where I think pool is missing the mark.

The idea is not the end; the idea is not the beginning. It's the end of the beginning. Very simply put, the network is the innovation. Ideas are already out there about pool, but the challenge is putting them together in a network that is viable and capable of growing, evolving on its own. It's about connecting, and only then can ideas have impact.

Yes networking is essential and it is a low cost high impact technique.

A problem with networking is when people that have clashing ideas talk. In the spirit of Veterans Day, and to all the people who need little laughter in their lives, loosen up. We have discussions in a forum because sharing ideas can solve problems. In the AZ network sharing ideas sometimes means debating ideas, and in less desirable situations whining instead of debating.

It is Veterans Day the important thing to remember is that even though some people have fought for their country, they can still be civil with the people they used to fight against. Being civil is a mature character trait that takes time to develop. So if your networking on AZ give people time to mature, it doesn't happen overnight.

Room owners can connect the idea of steaming internet matches, to help pros get used to being on camera and give the community something new. Reality show concepts have been huge and self-made videos go viral. It will be fun to see what crazy ideas room owners come up with in the future.
 
However, pool has to be sold to people whom I've seen complain on streams about "boring" safety play in 9-ball. My interest is in finding a balance between what players love and what the masses want to see.


Yes I agree. But if the safety play was taken out of the 9-ball match, then it would just be seeing a player miss and the other player getting left an easy runout. I am not so sure it would always be like that but what would an alternative be.

I have trouble thinking up ways to eliminate safety play because it does create dull moments during the match.
 
Yes networking is essential and it is a low cost high impact technique.

A problem with networking is when people that have clashing ideas talk. In the spirit of Veterans Day, and to all the people who need little laughter in their lives, loosen up. We have discussions in a forum because sharing ideas can solve problems. In the AZ network sharing ideas sometimes means debating ideas, and in less desirable situations whining instead of debating.

It is Veterans Day the important thing to remember is that even though some people have fought for their country, they can still be civil with the people they used to fight against. Being civil is a mature character trait that takes time to develop. So if your networking on AZ give people time to mature, it doesn't happen overnight.

Room owners can connect the idea of steaming internet matches, to help pros get used to being on camera and give the community something new. Reality show concepts have been huge and self-made videos go viral. It will be fun to see what crazy ideas room owners come up with in the future.

Good post, and well said. There's a lot of food for thought in those words. :smile:
 
I grew up playing snooker, and now play 1-pocket so you won't find me disagreeing with the value in strategic and safety play. However, pool has to be sold to people whom I've seen complain on streams about "boring" safety play in 9-ball. My interest is in finding a balance between what players love and what the masses want to see.

This is really nicely stated. Sure enough, you are right. Then again, with more than a few exceptions, the people who watch pool when streamed are the die hard players, not the eight-ball league players.

I once played in a bar table eight ball event in the 1990's. I was a league player at the time, and believe me, I quickly saw that players loved winning with good strategy and well executed defense every bit as much as when they ran the whole table. The best kind of competition is when competitors use a well-judged combination of offense and defense to win.

Pool's problem is that it's the pro players and the die hard fans who are steering pool further and further from games that the casual amateur players know and like. If all we care about is them, than we must accept the fact that the league players will never care too much about serious/pro pool.

From my vantage point, the ones we need to reach out to are the ones that presently see top level pool as both irrelevant and irreconciliable with the games they play. If pool is to move forward, I don't think pleasing its current fan base is even nearly as important as reaching out to the countless amateurs that have no interest in the pro game.
 
Last edited:
Most people believe Henry Ford invented the automobile, but he didn't. In fact, he had four companies that went under before he finally came with a successful business model.

Ford assembled the Model T based on the discoveries of other men before him that had centuries of research behind them. Had he come with the Model T before the time that he did, it would have failed miserably.

"Progress happens when all the factors that make for it are ready, and then it is inevitable. To teach that a comparatively few men are responsible for the greatest forward steps of mankind is the worst sort of nonsense," Ford said.

Success is about innovation. Risk and failure do not necessarily mean breakthroughs, as we've seen often in the pool world. Allen Hopkins came with the Skins Billiard Championship. It was a risk, a good risk, but it just didn't catch on.

If one sells a better product, then people will find a hard-beaten road to their door. If somehow an entrepreneur could figure out how to elevate pool to a new height in popularity, it will sell. The combination of risk, failure, and breakthrough is how Henry Ford succeeded. Hope pool can find the right combination, learn from the past, take a risk on something new, and find that magic balance. :smile:

Re., the bolded sentence in reference to Ford...

Ford's biggest addition wasn't the car or even the assembly line. It was his marketing abilities. Pool needs the same type of marketing innovation.

Marketing is the hardest, most costly part of most businesses. That's why it is shunned by so many.

Jeff Livingston
 
The most popular mousetrap is the Victor model, which first was introduced in 1897. It has not changed fundamentally. There are two major breakthroughs, however, in the mousetrap industry since then: cheese-scented plastic and marketing. It's the marketing aspect that will bring success. You just have to know *who* to market to, especially in this pool world. This is where I think pool is missing the mark.

The idea is not the end; the idea is not the beginning. It's the end of the beginning. Very simply put, the network is the innovation. Ideas are already out there about pool, but the challenge is putting them together in a network that is viable and capable of growing, evolving on its own. It's about connecting, and only then can ideas have impact.

Ooops, I posted the above post before reading this one.

Sorry, Jen,

Jeff Livingston
 
  • Like
Reactions: JAM
Turn back now if you're not in the mood for a long post!

I just watched the superb TAR interview of Mark Griffin by Justin (JCIN). It dealt with: a) upcoming American pool events, b) the ABP mess and problems, c) bonus ball, its potential positives and some of its illogic, d) the decline of American men's pro pool and reasons for it, e) the scarcity of youth programs to steer American kids to pool, f) the fact that men's pool events rarely turn a profit for American promoters, and g) relocation of BCAPL events to the Rio in 2013. Justin and Mark chatted about these topics, and I agreed with most of what they said. I'd like to review and comment on their chat as it pertained to the state of men's pro pool in America.

The Decline of American Men's Pro Pool - Background
Outside of Shane, male American pros are in a slump. They achieved little in the past year in overseas events (in large part, due to reduced participation). More notably, they came up short in American-based events with big fields and significant participation from foreign players. The last eleven such events, in which eight foreigners won, were: 1) 2010 US Open 9-ball (Appleton), 2) 2011 DCC Banks (Pagulayan), 3) 2011 DCC One Pocket (Van Boening), 4) 2011 DCC 9-ball (Orcullo), 5) 2011 DCC 14.1 (Appleton), 6) 2011 Super Billiards Expo 10-ball (Souquet), 7) 2011 US Open One Pocket (Reyes), 8) 2011 US Open 10-ball (Van Boening), 9) 2011 Straight Pool Championship (Hohmann), 10) 2011 Turning Stone XVII (Morris), 11) 2011 US Open 9-ball (Appleton). Yes, American pros not named Shane are rarely the ones to beat on American soil, and there's no reason to think that this will change anytime soon.

The State of American Men's Pro Pool and Pool's Tough Business Model - Mark and Justin's Analysis
Where has it gone wrong, Mark and Justin pondered? Mark spoke of the fact that, Shane aside, few American players have the work ethic found among top foreign stars, and concluded it was due to insufficient financial incentive. The American pool pro, he observed, can earn more performing menial jobs such as pumping gas, while Filipino and Chinese pros can earn amounts that are substantial in the context of the economies of their homelands. Mark added that lack of US Olympic funding is another difference, explaining that pool as an Olympic sport is improbable, and is impossible until 2020, so no such funds will be available to American pros in the short-term.

How then, Mark and Justin pondered together, will the economy of men's pool be fueled in America? As they saw it, it would come from either a) the appearance of an angel, meaning a Trudeau type who would invest heavily in pool without much substantiation of income prospects, b) a grassroots effort to grow the game, or c) the passion of those who produce events (like the two of them) despite insubstantial profit potential. Mark joked that, despite being 65 years old, he's in this business for the long run! That's comforting.

Mark and Justin dismissed the angel idea as improbable as a long-term solution. If an angel were to emerge, they noted, the hard economic facts of the game would cause them to walk away in short order, much as Kevin Trudeau did. Mark noted the scarcity of youth programs to introduce kids to pool, and Justin added something here that I thought very important. He noted that many parents don't let their kids go to poolrooms because of pool's image and this hinders the growth of the sport. I think it will take both youth programs and a more kid-friendly atmosphere in America's poolrooms to jumpstart what Justin referred to as a grassroots effort to grow the game. Justin, quite correctly pointed out, and Mark agreed, that such a grassroots effort might take a decade. Hence, they concluded that the persistence of promoters that produce American events despite the sobering profit potential is, in all probability, a key to the immediate future. Mark spoke of how he is raising money, through his BCA pool leagues, to help fund pro events and, ultimately, to help finance the participation of American pros in overseas events. This is very admirable, but also quite remarkable, given that ABP continues to exclude promoters like him from the task of mapping out a strategy to sustain men's pro pool in America.

Mark, finally, shared his plans for producing some new pro events to coincide with the BCAPL tournaments in Vegas starting in 2013.

Summing it Up
Piecing it all together, then, the state of pro pool in America is this:

a) Aside from Van Boening, American pros are gradually falling off the world's pool map.
b) The economics of the game continue to make a career in pro pool less attractive to Americans.
c) Although there are some, America needs far more youth programs for pool to grow.
d) The fact that poolrooms in America are not seen as kid-friendly deters parents from introducing kids to pool.
e) Promoters that invest in pool despite poor income prospects in the short-term are vital to sustaining American pro pool.
f) American professional players are trying to steer pro pool's ship alone, leaving promoters out of the decision loop.

I'm glad to see that Mark and Justin, two key figures in pool, have such a solid grasp of the realities of men's pro pool in America. I admire them for not being deterred by the tough challenges the sport faces.

Nobody in recent times has done more than Mark Griffin to keep pro pool alive in America, and his persistence in producing events and diverting funds from his leagues to support the pros is remarkable. To my delight, Mark shared his hopes to produce a) US Open Ten Ball, b) US Open One-Pocket, c) US Open 14.1, and d) US Open 8-ball, in Vegas in 2013, to be played during the BCAPL events. I hope American pros will work with rather than against him to make his dream a reality.

Conclusion
Thanks you Justin and Mark Griffin for this wonderful, enlightening interview. Well done, gentlemen.

If I had the family support and a poolhall and a hearing aid that I could turn down, I'd have a strong work ethic too.. all my family are millionaires and they said that pool doesn't have any money in it.(insufficient financial incentive)
IMO
Forget attendance/gate, think of all the money these guys make on deals with the hotel/motels/venue(the percentage they make off each room and other perks with the casinos. .It's untelling I tell ya. 1000's of players pumpin money into their pockets. Am I the only one who thinks like this?. . don't answer. Just get out your calculator and start multiplying . .
Canwin
 
Last edited:
Turn back now if you're not in the mood for a long post!

I just watched the superb TAR interview of Mark Griffin by Justin (JCIN). It dealt with: a) upcoming American pool events, b) the ABP mess and problems, c) bonus ball, its potential positives and some of its illogic, d) the decline of American men's pro pool and reasons for it, e) the scarcity of youth programs to steer American kids to pool, f) the fact that men's pool events rarely turn a profit for American promoters, and g) relocation of BCAPL events to the Rio in 2013. Justin and Mark chatted about these topics, and I agreed with most of what they said. I'd like to review and comment on their chat as it pertained to the state of men's pro pool in America.

The Decline of American Men's Pro Pool - Background
Outside of Shane, male American pros are in a slump. They achieved little in the past year in overseas events (in large part, due to reduced participation). More notably, they came up short in American-based events with big fields and significant participation from foreign players. The last eleven such events, in which eight foreigners won, were: 1) 2010 US Open 9-ball (Appleton), 2) 2011 DCC Banks (Pagulayan), 3) 2011 DCC One Pocket (Van Boening), 4) 2011 DCC 9-ball (Orcullo), 5) 2011 DCC 14.1 (Appleton), 6) 2011 Super Billiards Expo 10-ball (Souquet), 7) 2011 US Open One Pocket (Reyes), 8) 2011 US Open 10-ball (Van Boening), 9) 2011 Straight Pool Championship (Hohmann), 10) 2011 Turning Stone XVII (Morris), 11) 2011 US Open 9-ball (Appleton). Yes, American pros not named Shane are rarely the ones to beat on American soil, and there's no reason to think that this will change anytime soon.

The State of American Men's Pro Pool and Pool's Tough Business Model - Mark and Justin's Analysis
Where has it gone wrong, Mark and Justin pondered? Mark spoke of the fact that, Shane aside, few American players have the work ethic found among top foreign stars, and concluded it was due to insufficient financial incentive. The American pool pro, he observed, can earn more performing menial jobs such as pumping gas, while Filipino and Chinese pros can earn amounts that are substantial in the context of the economies of their homelands. Mark added that lack of US Olympic funding is another difference, explaining that pool as an Olympic sport is improbable, and is impossible until 2020, so no such funds will be available to American pros in the short-term.

How then, Mark and Justin pondered together, will the economy of men's pool be fueled in America? As they saw it, it would come from either a) the appearance of an angel, meaning a Trudeau type who would invest heavily in pool without much substantiation of income prospects, b) a grassroots effort to grow the game, or c) the passion of those who produce events (like the two of them) despite insubstantial profit potential. Mark joked that, despite being 65 years old, he's in this business for the long run! That's comforting.

Mark and Justin dismissed the angel idea as improbable as a long-term solution. If an angel were to emerge, they noted, the hard economic facts of the game would cause them to walk away in short order, much as Kevin Trudeau did. Mark noted the scarcity of youth programs to introduce kids to pool, and Justin added something here that I thought very important. He noted that many parents don't let their kids go to poolrooms because of pool's image and this hinders the growth of the sport. I think it will take both youth programs and a more kid-friendly atmosphere in America's poolrooms to jumpstart what Justin referred to as a grassroots effort to grow the game. Justin, quite correctly pointed out, and Mark agreed, that such a grassroots effort might take a decade. Hence, they concluded that the persistence of promoters that produce American events despite the sobering profit potential is, in all probability, a key to the immediate future. Mark spoke of how he is raising money, through his BCA pool leagues, to help fund pro events and, ultimately, to help finance the participation of American pros in overseas events. This is very admirable, but also quite remarkable, given that ABP continues to exclude promoters like him from the task of mapping out a strategy to sustain men's pro pool in America.

Mark, finally, shared his plans for producing some new pro events to coincide with the BCAPL tournaments in Vegas starting in 2013.

Summing it Up
Piecing it all together, then, the state of pro pool in America is this:

a) Aside from Van Boening, American pros are gradually falling off the world's pool map.
b) The economics of the game continue to make a career in pro pool less attractive to Americans.
c) Although there are some, America needs far more youth programs for pool to grow.
d) The fact that poolrooms in America are not seen as kid-friendly deters parents from introducing kids to pool.
e) Promoters that invest in pool despite poor income prospects in the short-term are vital to sustaining American pro pool.
f) American professional players are trying to steer pro pool's ship alone, leaving promoters out of the decision loop.

I'm glad to see that Mark and Justin, two key figures in pool, have such a solid grasp of the realities of men's pro pool in America. I admire them for not being deterred by the tough challenges the sport faces.

Nobody in recent times has done more than Mark Griffin to keep pro pool alive in America, and his persistence in producing events and diverting funds from his leagues to support the pros is remarkable. To my delight, Mark shared his hopes to produce a) US Open Ten Ball, b) US Open One-Pocket, c) US Open 14.1, and d) US Open 8-ball, in Vegas in 2013, to be played during the BCAPL events. I hope American pros will work with rather than against him to make his dream a reality.

Conclusion
Thanks you Justin and Mark Griffin for this wonderful, enlightening interview. Well done, gentlemen.

If I had the family support and a poolhall and a hearing aid that I could turn down, I'd have a strong work ethic too.. all my family are millionaires and they said that pool doesn't have any money in it.(insufficient financial incentive)
IMO
Forget attendance/gate, think of all the money these guys make on deals with the hotel/motels/venue(the percentage they make off each room and other perks with the casinos. .Think about it in your spare time. . 1000's of players pumpin money into their pockets for days/weeks at a time. Am I the only one who thinks like this?. . Don't answer
Canwin
 
If I had the family support and a poolhall and a hearing aid that I could turn down, I'd have a strong work ethic too.. all my family are millionaires and they said that pool doesn't have any money in it.(insufficient financial incentive)
IMO
Forget attendance/gate, think of all the money these guys make on deals with the hotel/motels/venue(the percentage they make off each room and other perks with the casinos. .Think about it in your spare time. . 1000's of players pumpin money into their pockets for days/weeks at a time. Am I the only one who thinks like this?. . Don't answer
Canwin


This post is off the charts! I am not even going to address the insult that a strong work ethic is enhanced by being deaf!

Let's talk about your uninformed post on the financials of doing an event. Anytime you want to come out to our office and see what we do (and what we do without) you are more than welcome.

You might see a few thousand people playing pool. You might not see the cost of getting the pool tables in place, the labor of 40 referrees, the advertising, security and tournament staff. This list is long!

The money we make off of room rebates and other perks. Sure, like paying $6,000 for a satelliete feed to provide streaming. Sometimes we get lucky and make some money - but it is tougher every year.

If it was so easy, why don't you go out and do a couple of events. I am sure you are not the only one who thinks like that but in all honesty, you probably do not have the experience to see all of the pitfalls.

mark Griffin
 
Last edited:
If I had the family support and a poolhall and a hearing aid that I could turn down, I'd have a strong work ethic too.. all my family are millionaires and they said that pool doesn't have any money in it.(insufficient financial incentive)
IMO
Forget attendance/gate, think of all the money these guys make on deals with the hotel/motels/venue(the percentage they make off each room and other perks with the casinos. .Think about it in your spare time. . 1000's of players pumpin money into their pockets for days/weeks at a time. Am I the only one who thinks like this?. . Don't answer
Canwin

From your perch, one can see allot of attributes being handed down to you from those who raised you. You truly exposed your character by ''explaining'' your personal views of life, ''as U see em''. Too bad you were brought up to learn your Values by the dollar $ign, and not by what some things are truly worth in ones life and character. I feel sorry for you thinking this way, and I would even feel worse if you have offspring that have been raised to view life in your minds eye.
 
This post is off the charts! I am not even going to address the insult that a strong work ethic is enhanced by being deaf!

Let's talk about your uninformed post on the financials of doing an event. Anytime you want to come out to our office and see what we do (and what we do without) you are more than welcome.

You might see a few thousand people playing pool. You might not see the cost of getting the pool tables in place, the labor of 40 referrees, the advertising, security and tournament staff. This list is long!

The money we make off of room rebates and other perks. Sure, like paying $6,000 for a satelliete feed to provide streaming. Sometimes we get lucky and make some money - but it is tougher every year.

If it was so easy, why don't you go out and do a couple of events. I am sure you are not the only one who thinks like that but in all honesty, you probably do not have the experience to see all of the pitfalls.

mark Griffin


Mark,
I can see how the post might be misunderstood as it wasn't worded properly enough to make my point clear enough. I'll break it down more clearly.
To me, there's a strong correlation between the support,encouragement/guidance and approval of family that greatly enhances one's ability to acheive the most in life with your talents as compared with someone who doesn't.
Psychologically and mentally it boosts one's confidence too by freeing them to be able to concentrate on doing what they love to do. Added to the fact that players, fans,TD's, etc. use their mouths/behavior/whatever to distract one from their concentration while shooting that by having a hearing aid one would be able to overcome this and have an extra(accidental) edge/option/advantage that other players lack.. which is the right of concentration that does'nt exist in the pool world.
As to the other points as far as your business, it's your business. You mentioned your expenses you incur at your tournaments but you haven't mentioned the 100's of thousands of pool players expenses that they incur to attend your events. Seems like having 1000's of players attending weeks worth of events that just the room rate discounts you receive would be a multiplication of 1000's. . off the charts? I know one thing for sure, it keeps getting harder for the players.
Canwin
 
From your perch, one can see allot of attributes being handed down to you from those who raised you. You truly exposed your character by ''explaining'' your personal views of life, ''as U see em''. Too bad you were brought up to learn your Values by the dollar $ign, and not by what some things are truly worth in ones life and character. I feel sorry for you thinking this way, and I would even feel worse if you have offspring that have been raised to view life in your minds eye.

See updated post and tell me what you think ..
 
Canwin,

I appreciate you clearing up some of your thoughts so it is easier to understand.

You said: I know one thing for sure, it keeps getting harder for the players.

We are aware of that and we really try to give the players a lot of options and events to play in or watch.

I can also say - you are right and it gets harder for us every year also.

So many things are out of our control: The price of airfares, gas, hotels and food. Everything is getting more and more expensive. Our sources of income are very limited - but our expenses have gone up dramatically in the last few years.

Mark g
 
Wow, Canwin! You are so wrong. I do a lot of events and I own a few. You clearly have no idea what it cost to do tournaments.
I am not going to discuss Marks Buisness but I will say, for all of you that think the people putting on pool tournaments when bringing in the tables are raking in the money, stop and think about this!
40 tables per truck, 5 miles per gallon, $4 per gallon, $170 per week per trailer, permits, added money, tournament software development, insurance, staff, count the referees that don't work for free, and many many other things.
Sorry but on the amateur stage, if you are going to a pool tournament and not treating it as entertainment like, a movie or going to a theme park, then you are going to be disappointed.
Sorry to rant but if your going to do the math, do all the math.
 
I wonder how many players will blow out their ears so they can concentrate better on their shots? :eek:

If being deaf was truly an advantage, some genius pool player would have thought of using 50 cent earplugs from Walmart.

MOST of this thread is pretty good discussion. Hope it gets back on the tracks soon.
 
Back
Top