Mark Griffin TAR Interview - My Thoughts

[JB Cases]

First, what a treat it is to have some serious and thoughtful discussion on how to improve men's pro pool.

Second, while my two friends SJM and lfigueroa have made a number of thoughtful insights here, I am a bit surprised that lfigueroa left out something he has mentioned to me a number of times...better venues for spectators.

In golf, someone is making money when people pay $75.00 to watch one day of a major tournament. In pool, when a regional pro tour comes into a local room it is hard for the room owner, promoter, or players to make money off "the gate" because the rooms are not necessarily designed for spectators.

If a room were to be built and designed with the pool spectator in mind, and games were chosen for maximum entertainment value, could the economics of pro pool improve? Perhaps? Right now, at least in St. Louis, MO, people are hurting big time. My wife would definitely like me to take her out to dinner and then to a swanky live pool match with the best pros in their best attire, where the audience is dressed up, especially if this could be done for a price cheaper than going to a music concert or Cardinals game (this is fairly likely given what tickets will cost to a Cards game next year--Pujols retirement fund). She could get a little program/ Play Bill that would tell her about the game being played, it would have advertisements, and it would have a biography of each player to tell her about a player's life, struggles, etc.(chicks love that) and she could watch live entertainment with me at a price WAY cheaper than a Cardinals game. Is this a bad idea? I don't know, I am honestly asking, but given pool's current state it might be worth a try.

This model might be more viable if these types of venues were built in various locations so players/ events could travel from city to city, not unlike golf tournaments. Maybe let local players pay a huge sum of money to play on the equipment in there when events are out of town---not unlike country clubs in golf.

kollegedave

Already been tried. Jim McDermott, the pool room owner from Tulsa not the cue maker, built a fabulous tournament room with great spectator seating all around. He built this directly behind his super popular and great pool room Magoos. He hosted/held several events there and could not fill the place with spectators.

Jim owned two poolrooms at the time, the Tulsa Billiard Palace and Magoos. Magoos was the more upscale one and still thrives today.

Jim ended up having to dismantle the Pro Arena for lack of support. The audience just isn't there.

Going back to the IPT, I was at the inaugural event, Mike Sigel vs. Loree Jon Jones.

For all the hoopla they did and all the money they put into producing that event and as nice as it was, we almost didn't get there in time to get our seats. The reason?

No one at the Casino where it was held had any clue that it was going on.

Not until we made our way back to the convention center area and came to one set of stairs that had a small sign next to them pointing the way did we find the event.

We came down the stairs into a wonder land of pool with posters of the greats adorning the hallways leading into the foyer for the event. Inside the event was amazing.

But the saddest part of all is that directly above us was ten thousand people who had no clue that two of America's greatest players were about to play a match. Even if they had had some interest to try to attend they wouldn't have known it was even there.

The build-it-and-they-will-come concept has been tried. They don't come.

 

[justnum]

Already been tried. Jim McDermott, the pool room owner from Tulsa not the cue maker, built a fabulous tournament room with great spectator seating all around. He built this directly behind his super popular and great pool room Magoos. He hosted/held several events there and could not fill the place with spectators.

Jim owned two poolrooms at the time, the Tulsa Billiard Palace and Magoos. Magoos was the more upscale one and still thrives today.

Jim ended up having to dismantle the Pro Arena for lack of support. The audience just isn't there.

The build-it-and-they-will-come concept has been tried. They don't come.

Because one person tried an idea and failed doesn't mean someone else will come along and repeat that failure. That type of thinking is loser think.

Most times failures like that happen because of timing.

 

[JB Cases]

Because one person tried an idea and failed doesn't mean someone else will come along and repeat that failure. That type of thinking is loser think.

Most times failures like that happen because of timing.

Please learn your history.

That was one example. Here is another one, what was that big event down in Texas two years ago? The one where a millionaire put up a bunch of money and then had to cut the prize money because he couldn't fill the fields? There was going to be a tour or more events.....

Let's play where are they now?

The Billiard Channel
Billiard Club TV
The Men's Professional Billiard Association
The Professional Cuesports Association
The Universal Poolplayers Association
The IPT
World Team Billiards

Any more?

My friends Eydie and Bob Romano dumped a ton of money trying to promote events and those events suffered from poor attendance and they lost money on each one.

You're right though, past failure does not necessarily indicate future failure.

So tell us your plan and how much of YOUR money and TIME you are willing to INVEST in the things you think need to be done.

 

[justnum]

You're right though, past failure does not necessarily indicate future failure.

So tell us your plan and how much of YOUR money and TIME you are willing to INVEST in the things you think need to be done.

Spending money and isn't as important as developing the talent of the pro players. A true fan wouldn't only be interested in seeing a great match but seeing what a great player can do on the table and off the table.

Finding ways to encourage pro players is more meaningful than just burning money having hopes and dreams for what should happen. Being realistic means dealing with the limitations pro players might have. Like limited job opportunity or having tons of passion but not knowing how to transfer that passion to something related to billiards but different from playing the table.

Your goals limit what can be done, if you only plan on spending money, than what else can happen other than it gets spent. But if you encourage pro players to be creative and grow the competition new things might happen.

Tournaments and events don't compete. But players do, so they have the edge in knowing what it takes to be at the top. I say encourage them to think about learning the business aspects of the billiards industry.


But most tend to think the only thing a billiard player is good for is mooching off of people looking for an easy check and creating drama. The industry doesn't really have high hopes or demands for what a player can do besides pay their entry fees and show up when needed. And from what has happened it isn't fair to the players that have grinded the tournament circuit.

 

[JB Cases]

Spending money and isn't as important as developing the talent of the pro players. A true fan wouldn't only be interested in seeing a great match but seeing what a great player can do on the table and off the table.

Finding ways to encourage pro players is more meaningful than just burning money having hopes and dreams for what should happen. Being realistic means dealing with the limitations pro players might have. Like limited job opportunity or having tons of passion but not knowing how to transfer that passion to something related to billiards but different from playing the table.

Your goals limit what can be done, if you only plan on spending money, than what else can happen other than it gets spent. But if you encourage pro players to be creative and grow the competition new things might happen.

Tournaments and events don't compete. But players do, so they have the edge in knowing what it takes to be at the top. I say encourage them to think about learning the business aspects of the billiards industry.


But most tend to think the only thing a billiard player is good for is mooching off of people looking for an easy check and creating drama. The industry doesn't really have high hopes or demands for what a player can do besides pay their entry fees and show up when needed. And from what has happened it isn't fair to the players that have grinded the tournament circuit.

Pie in the sky nonsense without any practical experience behind it. You obviously have very little clue what sorts of encouragement pro players have received from the industry. You have no clue what sorts of things have been asked of pro players outside of showing up and playing.

How about some concrete solutions that YOU are willing to work on?

 

[lfigueroa]

Already been tried. Jim McDermott, the pool room owner from Tulsa not the cue maker, built a fabulous tournament room with great spectator seating all around. He built this directly behind his super popular and great pool room Magoos. He hosted/held several events there and could not fill the place with spectators.

Jim owned two poolrooms at the time, the Tulsa Billiard Palace and Magoos. Magoos was the more upscale one and still thrives today.

Jim ended up having to dismantle the Pro Arena for lack of support. The audience just isn't there.

Going back to the IPT, I was at the inaugural event, Mike Sigel vs. Loree Jon Jones.

For all the hoopla they did and all the money they put into producing that event and as nice as it was, we almost didn't get there in time to get our seats. The reason?

No one at the Casino where it was held had any clue that it was going on.

Not until we made our way back to the convention center area and came to one set of stairs that had a small sign next to them pointing the way did we find the event.

We came down the stairs into a wonder land of pool with posters of the greats adorning the hallways leading into the foyer for the event. Inside the event was amazing.

But the saddest part of all is that directly above us was ten thousand people who had no clue that two of America's greatest players were about to play a match. Even if they had had some interest to try to attend they wouldn't have known it was even there.

The build-it-and-they-will-come concept has been tried. They don't come.

The back room at Magoo's has nothing to do with what I've spoken to kollegedave about. That's not the setup I had in mind and frankly what I'm thinking of just may not be practical for the real world. That's why I haven't brought it up.

Lou Figueroa

 

[JB Cases]

Mark,

WHY can't we at least get the finals of the BCA Amateur nationals on ESPN? I mean hotdog eating contests and spelling bees are on there?

I personally believe that this would make for exciting pool tv much more than any pro event.

 

[JMuck]

The back room at Magoo's has nothing to do with what I've spoken to kollegedave about. That's not the setup I had in mind and frankly what I'm thinking of just may not be practical for the real world. That's why I haven't brought it up.

Lou Figueroa

I would find your ideas interesting,but I certainly understand your reservations in not posting.

Thinking outside the box seems to may be a necessity.To me the very same problems and solutions are being rehashed.

In my eyes to change a world compromised mainly of participants into a world of fans is going take a heavy dose of technology.

I don't think I'm prepared to go much further than that.Just throwing stuff out there.

 

[Mark Griffin]

Mark Griffin TAR interview

Mark,

WHY can't we at least get the finals of the BCA Amateur nationals on ESPN? I mean hotdog eating contests and spelling bees are on there?

I personally believe that this would make for exciting pool tv much more than any pro event.

John,
I really would like to try that, just not sure how to make it happen. Which event should we watch? We have 3 divisions in teams, singles, and doubles. Plus we now have 9-ball and 8-ball.

Then I think we might have union issues for all the camera guys. And knowing ESPN, we will have to for the whole bill.

This all describes some of what is wrong with the picture in US. Maybe we can do some live streaming once we move to Rio in 2013. At the Riviera, we have serious expenses getting a feed to the needed areas.

If anyone knows who to talk to at ESPN, please let me know who that is.

Mark griffin

 

[JB Cases]

John,
I really would like to try that, just not sure how to make it happen. Which event should we watch? We have 3 divisions in teams, singles, and doubles. Plus we now have 9-ball and 8-ball.

Then I think we might have union issues for all the camera guys. And knowing ESPN, we will have to for the whole bill.

This all describes some of what is wrong with the picture in US. Maybe we can do some live streaming once we move to Rio in 2013. At the Riviera, we have serious expenses getting a feed to the needed areas.

If anyone knows who to talk to at ESPN, please let me know who that is.

Mark griffin

The one I want to see is the finals of the regular teams. That is the one where the most drama happens.

What I would like to see is it recorded at least Accu-Stats style with commentary so that it could be sold to networks and viewed via PPV and DVDs sold........

And yes I know all about the cost that convention centers LOVE to charge for dropping a line to a booth. It's ridiculous.

The thing is that you have a TON of compelling stories. With all the divisions, the international participation, the regular people stories, and all that's going on you have an amazing cornucopia of content waiting to be exploited and broadcast.

Maybe if the people on this forum who think pool needs to be fixed would spend 1/10th of their energy writing to the various networks then someone from the networks would call you.

After all they had no problem writing to Pepsi while completely ignoring the inside industry sponsors who have been there all these years.

 

[sjm]

8-Ball is a great game. But I am not sure that by changing to 8-ball that we automatically change our dynamics. Paul Schofield said in a post (somewhere) that by changing the game you change very little of the dynamics. I tend to agree. The same people will watch if it is 8-ball, 9-ball, or 10-ball etc.

I agree with this in principle, unless the chance to build a bridge between the pro and amateur ranks is capitalizaed on in full. As you suggest, it's not nearly as simple as "Build an 8-ball event and they will come."

The difference, though, is that if pro players took the initaitve to mingle with and even occasionally sweat the matches of amateurs during the BCAPL tourneys, they could start repairing the bridges they've burned between themselves and the league players, whose apathy they have earned by their own ambivalence. It might sound a bit corny, but if spoken by a top professional to an amateur, a line like "I play eight ball, too. I'll check out a little bit of your match and I hope you'll check out my pro match out tonight at 10:00 PM" can create fans of the pro game, and if you can get more league players to care about pro pool, it will feed on itself. Let the pros invest some time into getting to know the rank-and-file amateurs.

I've been to fifteen different BCA extravaganzas at the Riviera, and can bear witness to the fact that, unless they are trying to selling something at a booth, the pros nearly never spend anytime interacting with the amatuers in the amateur playing venue. I can think of a few exceptions, but, as a rule, the pros steer clear of the amateurs, and I think it's, at least in part due to the fact that pros don't have sufficient respect for eight ball players. That's, to some extent, why the amateur masters division 8-ball final on the bar tables often has as many viewers as the pro matches.

 

[Marie's husband]

Mr. Griffin,

I just want to say "Thank you" to you and Justin for answering my question. My question was about having a team event during the BCAPL National event that would have a team of average players getting assigned a well known "Pro" player to play with them for the entire tournament.

It would take a lot of coordination with the "Pro" players and a lot of commitment, but couldnt that be part of a requirements for participating within the championship. Also, if the "Pro" players do not wish to make this type of commitment, then since the Grand Masters have a break of a day and a half, that might be an option to do the same type of event.

I do understand that there is a lot going on during that time frame, but with the new venue in 2013 I wanted to just put a bug in your ear. Its just an idea that creates the average league player to be playing along side the "Pro" players.

Oh, one last thing, how would I determine who gets to play in this style of event? I would use the BCAPL regional events to make that determination. For example, the top 4 teams from the mens division and womens division from each regional event will receive invitations, if declined then it goes to the next team in line and so on.

Thank You
Andrew

 

[The Renfro]

Mr. Griffin,

I just want to say "Thank you" to you and Justin for answering my question. My question was about having a team event during the BCAPL National event that would have a team of average players getting assigned a well known "Pro" player to play with them for the entire tournament.

It would take a lot of coordination with the "Pro" players and a lot of commitment, but couldnt that be part of a requirements for participating within the championship. Also, if the "Pro" players do not wish to make this type of commitment, then since the Grand Masters have a break of a day and a half, that might be an option to do the same type of event.

I do understand that there is a lot going on during that time frame, but with the new venue in 2013 I wanted to just put a bug in your ear. Its just an idea that creates the average league player to be playing along side the "Pro" players.

Oh, one last thing, how would I determine who gets to play in this style of event? I would use the BCAPL regional events to make that determination. For example, the top 4 teams from the mens division and womens division from each regional event will receive invitations, if declined then it goes to the next team in line and so on.

Thank You
Andrew

Basically it will take an idea like this to tie the 2 together.

If I was to start a new league today I would tie each city to a pro of their choice with said pro receiving funds from their teams. In return the player would put on a clinic 2 times a year and would be their national qualified team's coach in the final 16 if they advance that far...... There are many ideas that can work... I have about 4 I obsess over when I am not being entertained by some of the member's posts here......

 

[justnum]

Pie in the sky nonsense without any practical experience behind it. You obviously have very little clue what sorts of encouragement pro players have received from the industry. You have no clue what sorts of things have been asked of pro players outside of showing up and playing.

How about some concrete solutions that YOU are willing to work on?

Just keep hoping that whoever reads the boards might think you have great ideas and will front some cash for you.

Aside from that this discussion is little more than you hoping people will want to spend money on a product/service you want to release. Point being the motivation is making sure buyers are interested in your goods. (A pre-release party if you know the lingo.)

Don't be concerned with the lives of players in your decisions. Like you say they are just tools for attracting amateurs to spend money on a specific part of the industry, mainly your events.

It would make sense if pros decided to round up the amateurs from their area and form regional clubs. This way there is no need to pay for middle people.

But you thinking you have more solutions than the players that have been grinding it, is part of what has been holding you back. Will players be interested in working with you?

If you had a good business sense you'd realize, spending cash doesn't solve all problems. You need someone that can sell ideas, which is why Kevin Trudeau was so quintessential to today's billiards industry. Everyone else is just an imitator. TAR is nothing more than IPT challenge match. More distribution of prizes in the US Open is IPT's version of everyone getting paid. Internet streams started with IPT.

I mean face the facts if you had any good ideas they would have taken off.

 

[justnum]

Advice for JB Cases

JB Cases

You wanted some concrete ideas. Here is one.

Learn how Kevin Trudeau sold the IPT.

Study how he talks, how he dresses, and how he works with players.

You could learn a lot from just a few of his promotional videos, pre-game talks and in game commentary.

Instead of saying what players should be doing, he gets them involved. Did Mike agree to everything Kevin suggested? Ask Mike if you know him. The answer is pretty obvious.

 

[chefjeff]

Already been tried. Jim McDermott, the pool room owner from Tulsa not the cue maker, built a fabulous tournament room with great spectator seating all around. He built this directly behind his super popular and great pool room Magoos. He hosted/held several events there and could not fill the place with spectators.

(snip).

As a lowly league player for a long time, I'd just like to see a bar or pool hall where two teams AND THEIR FRIENDS AND SPOUSES could ALL sit and watch the match with ease.

It doesn't take a giant stadium, just a little more thought when laying out a floor design.

It seems to me that getting our friends and spouses to ALSO come to the bars to watch good league play would be a nice FIRST STEP in gaining more paying spectators. My wife rarely comes as she doesn't want to stand around or be at a 90 degree angle to the table, stuck in a hard booth resulting in a stiff neck.

Now, I see many, if not most, of the team members, not watching their own teammates playing, but doing something on their phones!:frown:

Jeff Livingston

 

[CocoboloCowboy]

Pool IMHO should study the NFL's business plan

IMHO Pool would study the NFL’s (National Football League) Business Plan. As the NFL has become very successful after putting (2) Professional Football Leagues together the Old American Football League, and the Old National Football League in to making up the NFL.

One Governing body, One Sanctioning body, One set of Rules, and one big success. Super Bowl is the MOST WATCH TV Event annually, and advertisers line up to support the NFL.

The NFL is reaching out to Youth in NFL Flag Football program that are "NFL Branded". no not all the kids will play in the real NFL, but many will become the NEXT GENERATION of NFL Fans who spend what on NFL Tickets, Memorabilia, Merchandise, and last with NFL Advertisers like the Budweiser Beer Brand products.

Pool has too many BIG Fish each with their little ponds, they are called BCA, APA, ACS, TAP, and the rest of the group. Wonder if Pool would prosper, become bigger, have more sponsorship, etc., with JUST ONE....One Governing body, One Sanctioning body, One set of Rules for all of Pool?

 

[JCIN]

Now that Cocobolo Cowboy as joined justnumb this thread has officially jumped the shark. Good news is that TAR Podcast #2 is now available to watch online. This week Mark and I solve all of the pool worlds problems with time left over to piss off a few people.

Check it out at: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U8EDWDXrIkA

MP3 audio only version is available at: http://theactionreport.com/downloads/podcasts/

 

[justnum]

IMHO Pool would study the NFL’s (National Football League) Business Plan. As the NFL has become very successful after putting (2) Professional Football Leagues together the Old American Football League, and the Old National Football League in to making up the NFL.

One Governing body, One Sanctioning body, One set of Rules, and one big success. Super Bowl is the MOST WATCH TV Event annually, and advertisers line up to support the NFL.

The NFL is reaching out to Youth in NFL Flag Football program that are "NFL Branded". no not all the kids will play in the real NFL, but many will become the NEXT GENERATION of NFL Fans who spend what on NFL Tickets, Memorabilia, Merchandise, and last with NFL Advertisers like the Budweiser Beer Brand products.

Pool has too many BIG Fish each with their little ponds, they are called BCA, APA, ACS, TAP, and the rest of the group. Wonder if Pool would prosper, become bigger, have more sponsorship, etc., with JUST ONE....One Governing body, One Sanctioning body, One set of Rules for all of Pool?

That is a little bit too much too fast.

It would be better if pool room owners, decided to stream challenges matches. Most times they have pros playing in their rooms, why not stream it over the internet.

It takes advantage of the fact that the pros are already there and the equipment is already there. What does TAR do that is so special that a room owner can't do it?

Imagine each pool room owner with a house pro, or ranked player, having daily exhibitions via the internet. This helps players get familiar to being on the "tv table." And it addresses the demand for great matches over the internet.

I think Amsterdam did an exhibition with Earl and they stream.

 

[Ghosst]

Let me also say - we are not in love with 10-ball. It is just the game we selected and was one that would attract an international field. It would be accepted by the players and the spectators. I think it is a 'better' game than 9-ball because of the break problems. We also do not have the name US Open 9-Ball.

8-Ball is a great game. But I am not sure that by changing to 8-ball that we automatically change our dynamics. Paul Schofield said in a post (somewhere) that by changing the game you change very little of the dynamics. I tend to agree. The same people will watch if it is 8-ball, 9-ball, or 10-ball etc.

Mark/Justin, thanks for the response. I did want to mention that we play 8-ball on 9' tables here. Most good players shun the barboxes because they're tiny and have buckets for pockets that are hard for anyone to miss. That has no appeal to us. I lived in England for 3 years and I've seen my share of 6' tables too. They're hard to play on with snooker cut pockets, but they are just too different for people to understand.

I also wanted to mention this because it's important: We don't think you're running the pros, but you are the only person who listens. Your leagues are trying to support the industry and the pros and not just shoving money into your pockets in a free-for-all without any feedback.

I still wouldn't expect, no matter how much money anyone threw at it, people to flock to their computers or TV to watch an 8-ball match the moment it was on air. It takes time, and honestly, ESPN has done pool such an injustice with their cropped (butchered) 2-years later-on reruns that few would waste the time. You pretty much have to start over by building a small and loyal following and then letting it expand. But if it's still a niche game like rotation it's not going to explode because people at large can't play 9-ball or 10-ball.

What would work might be:

- 45-60 second shot clock (no extensions)
- 4.000" or 4.125" pockets
- 9' tables
- Longer races but within the attention-span of an average player. I'm thinking 1 hour at the outside. Anything more would make it monotonous for an average person.
- Stalemate condition (7 innings without a ball pocketed)

I'm looking for a balance where we can still have safety battles but they're short enough not to lose the interest of the public. Now you have a game everyone plays but it's just a little bit tougher (think PGA tour course versus your average course) for the guys who make it look easy.

Also I mentioned the idea of separate tours with some type of a points system. At least then a spectator is seeing something with an end to it, not just two people knocking balls in. The UFC has belts and rankings, as does boxing, automobile has team/cup points, rookie-of-the-year, etc. It may not all fit into the league, but again, you're one of the few people who could make something happen, instead of the big mess we have now that has no start, beginning, or end.