Your sooo right Jason, but remember
on AZ were IN a pool room by being here, can't ya just feel the love and the BS, BUT where's the smoke and the music and the Blonde headed Alpha bar bimbos when ya need em :thumbup:
Mark Griffin TAR Interview - My Thoughts
- Thread starter sjm
- Start date
Your sooo right Jason, but remember
on AZ were IN a pool room by being here, can't ya just feel the love and the BS, BUT where's the smoke and the music and the Blonde headed Alpha bar bimbos when ya need em :thumbup:
I think you need to go over the posts again before saying that I insinuated anything...or that I "Don't know shit". It's cool that you are sticking up for someone if he actually was being attacked. But after reading your post again it seems your opinion is a little inconsiderate of all the possibile choices one can infer from my comments...which where just merely ideas.
spanky79
What amazes me is how much s--t people will talk here that they would not talk to someone's face. There have been many things said on these threads that will get you a beat down in the real world
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Although I do understand why some people will not post under their real name, I think it also opens the door for some real abuses.
I am pretty much of the mind that if I don't know who I am talking to, then I often prefer to just not continue the discussion.
I make a point of being available by phone or email. I am VERY accesible. If a poster will not put their name to what they say - I think that speaks volumes.
Mark Griffin
What amazes me is how much s--t people will talk here that they would not talk to someone's face. There have been many things said on these threads that will get you a beat down in the real world
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Although I do understand why some people will not post under their real name, I think it also opens the door for some real abuses.
I am pretty much of the mind that if I don't know who I am talking to, then I often prefer to just not continue the discussion.
I make a point of being available by phone or email. I am VERY accesible. If a poster will not put their name to what they say - I think that speaks volumes.
Mark Griffin
Think back just a couple weeks ago. Remember watching the US Open Nine-Ball tournament on PPV? Pretend for just a minute that it is Ten-Ball. Pretend again that they are playing Eight-Ball. I just can't see where changing to one of the other games is an improvement. It all looks so similar. The structure and dynamic is the same.
You responded to the same post twice and I cant really understand either one. I'm just going chalk this up to a misunderstanding.
The "don't know shit" reference was regarding Justnum's post. IMO, you insinuated JCIN was an industry leech by your comment directed toward him. I think your interpretation of JCINs comments to pay for table time (or whatever it was exactly) was misinterpreted.
I have no beef with you Mcphee, I think some of your comments have shown some pool naiveness though. Let's go forward from here and have a productive, civil conversation.
There are city run facilities for avid volleyball players. The city organized these weekly events for their residents. If you are from out of town you may pay 2$ more than the usual 3$ to play all night with some of the best players in town. I know it is city run because I had an incident with the guy that works there. He sucks and had it in it for some of the guys that could really play. His actions were out of line so we had to tried to talk to his boss. And that was where I learned that there are government programs that support those sports.
As for pool I was stating that we don't have what other sports have along that line. I never meant to say that anyone in the industry are demanding towards pool players. I mean to say, that it is a demanding sport in that sense.
I hope this clears things as I didn't mean to say Jcin is a leech. I only used that line as an example for a good reason for him to come at me suggesting I buy a pool table, which is what he could've mistakenly infer from my use of the word, "demanding".
Again I'm sorry for not being specific with my thoughts. I didn't mean to insult anyone.
Are you saying that there are less people in the real world that can have a civil discussion than people here? Or are you saying that you are the type who likes to resort to violence as a means because I don't see anything in this thread worthy of anyone getting hurt over. We have done nothing more than debate about a topic. There has been misunderstandings, but we are mature enough to consider them and still speak to each other in a respectable way.
Funny thing is I’ve been saying that for years. The problem is you find a random forum for pool players and they think 9-ball is just the greatest thing ever because it’s what they’ve been taught by TV. It doesn’t matter if one variation is harder than another; they’re more interested in being right in their opinion than actually in touch with the people who spend the money (your average player, league or not).
Now instead of smashing a bunch of keys and claiming I was right, I decided to try out a little experiment on FaceBook. I wanted to see, without advertising of ANY kind, which was more popular: 8-Ball or 9-Ball, because this, more than anything else, determines the audience (which means money).
After 1 month (you can even go on FB to see the results):
8-Ball Pool: 806 like this
9-Ball Pool: 130 like this
No matter what level the players are, there’s more people who relate to 8-Ball than 9-ball.
It’s not complicated; it’s ~8:1
It’s not a debate, more people know, like, and understand 8-ball.
The rest of the world seems to be doing ok without American Flag Ball-sets, and “This State’s Express Rules.” Seems like even the players organizations have that problem, it’s not the PPA, it’s the ABP. What if I’m Canadian? I guess I’m screwed then…
We always see the reference to a “fractured sport” and yet endorse different organizations for America, different rules for different places, different games (8-, 9-, 10-ball, 1-P, 14.1 …) for different players. Is the connection that hard to make? Stop inventing new and completely unexciting stuff no one except for a tiny market of die-hards even understands. No recreational player cares a damn about 10-ball and yet those recreational players are the ones spending money. They may not buy $1500 cues, but they are also made to feel like they are not “good enough” to own a cue either by the same people who think 8-ball isn’t “good enough”. (For the lurkers who’ve been treated that way remember; you don’t need to be a racecar driver to own a Ferrari, so don’t worry about someone who thinks they know what you deserve).
I have found you have to add a legal disclaimer to everything here in order for some to get it. So: I am NOT against America. I am against fracturing everything into, “this place” and “that place”, and “THESE pros” instead of “Pros”, the “bar-rules”, and the “APA rules”, “Valley Rules”. How about the WPA rules? Enough! We don’t need another tour with super-duper-special-not-even-the-TD-knows-what-they-are-rules. Ask someone new to your hall what bonus ball is. Then ask them what 8-ball is.
I love 1-pocket. I’d rather play it than anything else. But I have to be realistic about TV; and 1-pocket won’t sell here. Neither does 3C, which I also love. So it’s not about me, it’s about the sport. It doesn’t mean rotation is bad, it means it isn’t selling. Sell something people understand.
Automobile racing might have an answer though: separate classes (tours) with separate champs. For the most part (yes there might be a couple of cross-overs, but they are the exception, not the rule) you compete in 1, not all, and you see which one works (makes money). Then you and sponsors know what to invest in. With a single tour for each discipline where points make a difference, you might get some people interested, and less of them confused as to why that dude just put every ball in the same pocket, but the other guy put every ball in any pocket and then re-racked and forgot one of them.
Holly please actually enforce this and get rid of those who can’t be professional. Next event. Not 10 years from now. Kick them out until the fine is paid. If you're drunk, get out. If you're having a poopy fit, leave. Get these clowns off of television. There are plenty of fine players out there who would happily take their place.
I agree with some of what Celtic and Ghosst say.
Let me also say - we are not in love with 10-ball. It is just the game we selected and was one that would attract an international field. It would be accepted by the players and the spectators. I think it is a 'better' game than 9-ball because of the break problems. We also do not have the name US Open 9-Ball.
8-Ball is a great game. But I am not sure that by changing to 8-ball that we automatically change our dynamics. Paul Schofield said in a post (somewhere) that by changing the game you change very little of the dynamics. I tend to agree. The same people will watch if it is 8-ball, 9-ball, or 10-ball etc.
We have had several discussions about having more US Open events when we move to the Rio in 2013. We would like to hve straight pool and 8-Ball. It may not happen but we are talking about it.
But - nothing will be on 10' tables because of the moving, storage, building costs etc. I see them as 'special event' tables - such as challenge matches.
Appreciate the comments - keep em coming.
Mark Griffin
Let me also say - we are not in love with 10-ball. It is just the game we selected and was one that would attract an international field. It would be accepted by the players and the spectators. I think it is a 'better' game than 9-ball because of the break problems. We also do not have the name US Open 9-Ball.
8-Ball is a great game. But I am not sure that by changing to 8-ball that we automatically change our dynamics. Paul Schofield said in a post (somewhere) that by changing the game you change very little of the dynamics. I tend to agree. The same people will watch if it is 8-ball, 9-ball, or 10-ball etc.
We have had several discussions about having more US Open events when we move to the Rio in 2013. We would like to hve straight pool and 8-Ball. It may not happen but we are talking about it.
But - nothing will be on 10' tables because of the moving, storage, building costs etc. I see them as 'special event' tables - such as challenge matches.
Appreciate the comments - keep em coming.
Mark Griffin
All that needs to be said ends there. Want proffesional pool to gain popularity and have some recognition amount the general public and potential fan base? Play the game they know.
After 30 years of rotation pool being the "pro" game and STILL 8-1 the general public say they like 8-ball.
Time to stop trying to force rotation pool into the limelight, it has had decades to gain in popularity, the majoritty of people like 8-ball. FFS promotors, get off of rotation pool and finally start working on pro 8-ball...
Agreed Mark, that is why you are respected, you don't hide behind a keyboard
It is clear you don't know me, because the one's that do know I am the most least violent person around. It was a simple statement, pure and simple. THE TRUE HURTS I KNOW
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What spectators? The fanbase of this game is atm microscopic due to the fact that most of the general public don't even know what 10-ball IS. About 10 times as many of the general public know what 8-ball is and that is 10 times as many people that might actually take notice of a live match or watch some of it on TV.
People will potentially watch what they know, what they understand. Almost noone will watch a game or a sport where they don't understand the rules and they don't understand what is going on. People are "more" likely to watch a sport that they themselves have played. People who golf are more likely to watch the PGA on TV. People who have played 10-ball are more likely to watch 10-ball, and people who have played 8-ball are more likely to watch some 8-ball. Guess between 10-ball and 8-ball has more participants, guess which game more of the people out there have played before, which game more people out there understand? That is the difference in your potential fanbase, possible viewers and customers, that is the difference in scale between the population you are marketing the two different games too.
Even if the dynamics don't change the scale does on that potential viewship, that familiarty is HUGELY important when you want to create a professional sports tour that is dependent on viewership to be a success. Marketing a sport to 500,000 people who know and play 10-ball compared to marketing a sport to 50,000,000 who know and have played 8-ball? This is the reality of what pool has failed to comprehend to date... You don't pick the game and target the 500,000 people and try to get as many of them watching and supporting the tour.... seriously you just dont! You pick the game with 50,000,000 and you try to get as many of them interested and watching. And you DON'T get most of the people who play pool watching the pro's by picking a game that most of those pool players DON'T play.
Straight pool should be great, there is at least 50,000 people in the USA who would care about that these days, there are people in your very league system who play amature pool at a competitive level who could not care less about a straight pool event. I am sorry, but it is true.
8-ball played by the top pros? That is a game that millions of people might actually take notice of if they knew about it. It is 8-ball, they will say "hey I play 8-ball!". That is the game you want to focus your attention on, we don't need 6 different US Open events, US Open Straight pool, US Open 10-ball, US Open Bonus Ball, US Open 1-Pocket, US Open Bank Pool, ect... that is just a muddled up mess that would actually act to confuse possible new interest in the sport and fracture the efforts into way too many small segments.
You need to focus on building one and only one key game atm, whatever that game is. "Pool" needs to become associated with one game and marketed to the public as one game. The fact that they all know 8-ball and for the last 30 years + we tried to shove 9-ball down their throats, 10-ball down their throats, it has simply acted to push the general public away from the game and tune this whole sport out. If we had of put 8-ball as THE game 30+ years ago, if we have of put all the effort we have into pro 9-ball, the US Open 8-ball championships, the World 8-ball championships, the Sand 8-ball championships, ect... this sport would be lightyears past where it is now.
If the 9-foots work for the game then the 10-foots are moot. But IF you get to a point where you have 9-foot tables with tight pockets and the pros have in effect trivialized the game on them to the point that the game becomes a breaking contest then you are either going to have to bite the bullet and move the professional game to 10-foots with tight pockets or else you are going to see the slow decay of any interest you have managed to drum up into the sport as people start to get bored with the clear lack of difficulty for the pro level on the equipement they use and move on to spend their time watching other sporting events.
Snooker manages to run their professional touranments on 6x12 tables quite successfully, I am not going to listen to an excuse that pool could not possible deal with the issues that 5x10 tables would impose because they are so big and take up so much room. Promotors will do what they want to do, but certain choices they make can and will hurt the sports growth and popluarity and that in turn hurts everyone, the fans, the players, and the promotors themselves who benefit from growth and interest in their ventures.
celtic
Celtic,
First of all I admire your passion.
You keep thinking I am trying to be a professional pool player organization. I support the pro players through events.
But we are an amateur organization. We provide singles and team events in 8-ball and some 9-ball.
We do amateur and pro events because we feel there is a need for the two to be related.
There are a LOT of issues that you don't touch on - and we are not going to discuss them here.
Just say that I am listening. But we can only do what we can do. If we could build a pro organization that would make sense, we might try that. But we are primarily an amateur group.
Mark Griffin
Mark Griffin
Celtic,
First of all I admire your passion.
You keep thinking I am trying to be a professional pool player organization. I support the pro players through events.
But we are an amateur organization. We provide singles and team events in 8-ball and some 9-ball.
We do amateur and pro events because we feel there is a need for the two to be related.
There are a LOT of issues that you don't touch on - and we are not going to discuss them here.
Just say that I am listening. But we can only do what we can do. If we could build a pro organization that would make sense, we might try that. But we are primarily an amateur group.
Mark Griffin
Mark Griffin
A guy put $10 million+ into an 8 Ball tour. I dont recall seeing the results on Sportscenter. I think you may have somewhat of a point regarding the game being more marketable to casual fans but there are also pitfalls to it. One of them being depending on the rules and equipment used pro's can make eight ball look like a joke.
The other downfall to eight ball as a spectator sport for the casual fan is that when played right there are a lot of safeties and strategic shots played. I think watching two guys move balls around for 10 minutes and intentionally not pocketing a ball would baffle and annoy a lot of the people you are trying to reach. I watched Shane and Darren play an amazing set of 8 ball at the Derby in 2007. I was betting a decent amount on it. I actually went up to my room and went to bed in the middle of it because I couldnt fade watching Darren take 15 minutes to figure what he was gonna do each shot. The games were either break and runs or marathons. Very little in between. Interesting and exciting for a minute but it got old pretty quick at least for me.
I think there are some positives to playing pro eight ball but it is far from the magic bullet IMO.
Cripe, Sportscenter? I was so freaking hopeful for the IPT, do you know what happend when the events finally went off? I tried to find TV stations I could watch them on live, when that failed I tried to find internet streams on which I could watch them live, when that failed I tried to find recent taped copies of the matches, when that failed I was relegated to watching the freaking real time score clicker on their bloody website and reading and posting on AZBilliards with other people who were as hard up as me that they were sitting there watching
{Bustamente 4, Hohmann 3}
{Pagulayan 2, O'Sullivan 1}
and peeing ourselves in excitement when it changed to
{Bustamente 5, Hohmann 3}
{Pagulayan 2, O'Sullivan 2}
That is as good as my viewership got with the IPT. Who the heck except for some diehard pool addict like me is going to put up with that kind of an idiotic presentation of a sport? That is worse then listening to a boxing match on the radio FFS...
Trudea put all that money in there, paid stars to be there and make it look all important, and then he did not freaking get any way for the event to be broadcast and actually get out there to the public.... That is a really important step, who cares how awesome an event is and who cares how many stars are there and how great the pool is if NOONE CAN SEE IT????
The IPT was one of the most face to palm moments I have ever had in my life with this game.
To this day, can you actually watch the finals, the semi-finals of the main tournaments? Not the Reyes vs Sigel match, but the tournament that Thorsten won, the other event that Reyes won? The last 3 or 4 matches of each event? I NEVER saw most of the IPT, just the clips that I was able to find way after the fact.
That is why I am so adamant to the point of being blunt that you MUST make sure it is done on the correct equipment. I think that 9-foot you have there with the Fatboy rails but be reasonable, but I still think that a 10-foot with pockets the exact same size of those Fatboy rails if not dropping to 4 inches even would be the best option. 8-ball is a game that needs to have tight pockets and a fairly large table that makes cinching shots lead to long and difficult pots.
That is REALLY rare in 8-ball. On very rare occasions you might get a tied up ball, the 8 burried deep in a pocket, and some weird play, but that is the rare exception as opposed to the rule. What little 8-ball I did get to watch of the IPT the pro's were playing runout pool for the most part, safeties were only employed when they screwed up or the break ended up with alot of tied up balls and that is not terribly common on the larger tables (9-foots and 10-foots would be even less clustered).
That is an issue with players and a lack of a shot clock. I watched Kid Delicious play a match of rotation pool where he near put me into a coma with his speed of play and constantly getting back up off the shot.
I have been attempting to think up a shot clock system that allows thinking when it is required, but deters overall slow play. I was thinking a running average shotclock where the average shot time of a players last 20 shots must be less then 45 seconds. It would require a person sitting there clicking a button each time a player takes a shot which is a pain.
In effect you can take 2 minutes on your first shot, shoot the next 6 shots in 2 minutes total, then take 1 minute on the next, shoot the next 8 shots in 3 minutes total, then take 4 minutes to shoot the next 3 shots. 20 shots taken, total time for all of the shots is 12 minutes, 720 seconds divided by 20 is 36 seconds per a shot, so the speed of play on average for this player is within acceptable limits.
This type of system would allow people to stop and think on shots where they need to, but it compels faster play on the simple patterned outs so that you have that extra time when you need it.
I do think it is our best hope for this sport to break out of it's slump it has been in for so, so long.
First, what a treat it is to have some serious and thoughtful discussion on how to improve men's pro pool.
Second, while my two friends SJM and lfigueroa have made a number of thoughtful insights here, I am a bit surprised that lfigueroa left out something he has mentioned to me a number of times...better venues for spectators.
In golf, someone is making money when people pay $75.00 to watch one day of a major tournament. In pool, when a regional pro tour comes into a local room it is hard for the room owner, promoter, or players to make money off "the gate" because the rooms are not necessarily designed for spectators.
If a room were to be built and designed with the pool spectator in mind, and games were chosen for maximum entertainment value, could the economics of pro pool improve? Perhaps? Right now, at least in St. Louis, MO, people are hurting big time. My wife would definitely like me to take her out to dinner and then to a swanky live pool match with the best pros in their best attire, where the audience is dressed up, especially if this could be done for a price cheaper than going to a music concert or Cardinals game (this is fairly likely given what tickets will cost to a Cards game next year--Pujols retirement fund). She could get a little program/ Play Bill that would tell her about the game being played, it would have advertisements, and it would have a biography of each player to tell her about a player's life, struggles, etc.(chicks love that) and she could watch live entertainment with me at a price WAY cheaper than a Cardinals game. Is this a bad idea? I don't know, I am honestly asking, but given pool's current state it might be worth a try.
This model might be more viable if these types of venues were built in various locations so players/ events could travel from city to city, not unlike golf tournaments. Maybe let local players pay a huge sum of money to play on the equipment in there when events are out of town---not unlike country clubs in golf.
kollegedave
Jeesssh Dave,
You paint a mightly fine picture. I wish something like that could work. And maybe in some cities it could work!
But, once again, please remember my main agenda is amateur leagues. I will support Pro players but that is not my main goal or aspiration.
Mark Griffin
You paint a mightly fine picture. I wish something like that could work. And maybe in some cities it could work!
But, once again, please remember my main agenda is amateur leagues. I will support Pro players but that is not my main goal or aspiration.
Mark Griffin