Wanted/For Sale Section to Change in New Year

Lumocolor said:
The only way to stop frivolous lawsuits in the US is to have your site hosted in timbuktu or some other foreign location that US laws can't touch.
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Ebay handles it by stating in it's rules that once a deal is struck....you are entering into a legal and binding contract with the buyer/seller. The only other thing I can think of to help alleviate this is to require escrow on all sales...which may not exactly be a bad thing, what with all the scammers and rip-off artists as of late.

Lisa
 
cornerstone said:
it looks like pretty much any one with more than 15 i trader would be considered dealer?
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No; absolutely not. For example -- me. I have way more than 15, but I've never purchased anything related to pool for the purpose of reselling it for a profit. I purchase things solely for my own use. When I sell something, it's because I am no longer using it myself or never did use it (and have decided that I never will). Most of the things I have sold have been at a loss; a few have been at a profit because of the change in value during the period I owned them. I'm just a pool-playing hobbyist, not a dealer in any sense. So trying to identify dealers by number of iTrader ratings might tag some people inappropriately.
 
Charlie Edwards said:
Also, a posted price for the cue should be required when offering it. After all, it's the seller trying to sell something. He should know what he wants for it and say so up front. What's with ''PM for price"? What's the point in that?
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Hey Charlie,
I can give you a point on your topic, just from my personal feelings..
I post prices almost all the time, but sometimes I ask for a PM for price, or Call me.. for these reasons.
Many collectors of expensive cues don't wish to have a price public, so everyone knows what they paid for it. So, In the future they can sell it without the world knowing their purchase price. It protects there investment.

I offer cues for sale occasionally that can be $15k-$20k or better. These are the cues I would quote a price privately. This will only interest a small amount of buyers here on AZ. Those buyers have no problem PM or calling me for a more personal inquiry, since they will contact me regardless on a HIGH dollar purchase.. Don't know the reason for an outcry for everyone to see the price of something they most likely aren't going to have interet in puchasing. I'm sure someone who is looking at a Ferrari isn't going to buy it because the sticker wasn't in the window..

This is just the exception I have to the rule. Otherwise I agree, and I post pricing on cues that have a mass appeal to most AZ members, and dont want to inconvience many potential buyers..
Best,
Ken Kerner
 
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kvinbrwr said:
PayPal is beyond convenient. If it's used properly its 100% dead nuts safe.
1/2 the guys that got burned in the hang-em-high fiasco got burned with Postal Money Orders, scammers love them.

Get scammed with a Postal Money order, be out the money while you fill out forms and get dumped into a huge system where you can't get an answer while you are out the money. Get scammed on a proper PayPal transaction, take 30 seconds to dispute the charge with your credit card company and the amount is held in suspense, no bill, no interest, until PayPal proves to your credit card company that you received the goods. If PayPal can't prove that (because you didn't receive the goods) the charge disappears.

Kevin
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As a long time internet seller and owner of 3 web site buisness's, i can tell you Paypal is the only real solution here along with a properly verified AZ registration of both the buyer and seller. That is the only way ebay stopped the rampant fraud. At one time it got real bad with millions upon millions being ripped...And sellers cried like babies when the mandatory paypal payments came along. Escrow is cool as long as AZ is going to provide the service provider along with some kind if insurance. Otherwise trusted sellers like hang em high could escrow for you... My guess is AZ is most likely getting sued over ghost sellers and or their feedback system giving a false sense of security as a buyer... Just guessing here...
PS, buy from a private individual or any buisness out of the country, send a money order or check and have it shipped through usps? guy sends you a broken or not as described item and you have zero recourse. The postal inspectors also will not investigate unless the buisness or person has over 500 complaints of fraud or even for non delivery, just ask your local postmaster..
These solutions might not stop all the fraud, but it would put a huge dent in it.
Its also useless to try to sue someone who is a career criminal. They have nothing to pay you back with even if you did find them... Just my 2 cents
 
I don't handle cues to sale or trade in order to make a living. I agree that some of the mass production items get in the way, but a new cue or case for sale by anyone here is only helping everyone out. It is a chance for everyone to judge the builder, listen to testimonials and see the true value of a cue. It is a way for the little man who works hard to "set" his price for his work. Hope this can still happen in the future. How many people would say that AZ has at least a 75 % hand in how you look at the value of a cue ??? This is because you can go and look at what people are saying about someones work. God Bless the little man and let's not forget what shape our economy is in right now. Remember that all business works around a full circle, not half......
 
Wtf

Folks this is all a crock..and you that chime in that arent Club Members
ought to stay out of this hunt..the Mods should level with the Members
somewhat and ask for some suggestions..after all there are some smart
folks on here..and we do support and appriciate the effort it takes to
maintain this site..they shouldn't be regretfull of their decisions..and to
allow input would surely be appreciated and hopefully helpfull..SA
 
I rarely post anything for sale here, so this new change has ZERO effect on me.

However, I can foresee many, many problems associated with it:

1/ How can the mods decide who's an "individual" and who's a "dealer"?

The vast majority of "dealers" here have regular jobs elsewhere. Are they consider "dealers" or "individuals"? I guarantee you that there is not a clear cut definition of what a "dealer" is....The line between a "dealer" and a "individual" has always been very blurry ever since I get involved in the billiards world.


2/ How is AZB going to decide what constituted "new" vs. "used"?

Will a "test hit" cue considered "used"? How about if I shoot 1 game of pool with a cue? What if I chalk the tip ONCE? Will a case being used one night be consider "used"?


3/ What's stopping someone who is labeled "dealer" by AZB from creating multiple ID's and selling "used" cues/cases here?

I don't know much about the inner working of the site and the details. So it's hard to discuss things.

From the limited knowledge that I have here, I would suggest AZB to leave things the way they are....But, perhaps AZB just simply charge $5-$10 per listing with 5 free bumps allowed per listing by the original poster.
 
Folks, who is a "dealer" is perfectly clear. It's clear who is in the business and who is not. We don't check business licenses here but many people are clearly doing transactions regularly with new and used merchandise.

Casual sellers don't have a steady influx of new merchandise to sell. By new I mean unused and used cues. People who are doing it as a quasi-business do have a constant stream of stuff they want to sell or trade.

Personally I find that the cue section of the industry as applies to AZB is quite interesting. Because the way I see it there are several categories of sellers here.

1. Retail businesses - sells brand name cues.
2. Cue makers - sells stuff they make.
3. Professional Flippers - those who get on cue maker lists to flip new cues.
4. Hobby Flippers - those who dabble in cues to try them out and say that they owned all the brands.
5. Collectors - who rarely sell unless trying to rearrange the collection.
6. Private sellers - who try to sell their personal cues, usually at a loss.

Several of these categories wouldn't exist to the level that they do were it not for AZB's marketplace in my opinion. I don't see this level of activity on any other pool message board yet.

I think it's all gelled into a pretty neat community of sellers and buyers that works pretty well for the most part with certain hiccups that have unfortunately been costly.

I would like to see everyone on this forum who sells regularly be required to submit verifiable identity to someone and be registered with the full knowledge that this information is on display for anyone who wants it.

It is very unfair to the retailers around the world that someone can come on here with no identity, no business license, no credibility and start selling merchandise of dubious origin for as long as they can get away with it and then when the scheme unravels they are able to disappear with virtually no chance of being caught and prosecuted. It's unfair when scammers can get banned and then they come back under new names and scam again. It's unfair when people can jump on here with counterfeit goods and it takes a freaking Act of God to put a stop to it and there is virtually no protection for trademark holders.

But this is what happens in a free-for-all with poor moderation. Which is why I said that AZB should study what other forums do and pick the best practices.

But in this community it's pretty easy to spot the ones who are "dealers" so at least on that score there is no problem.
 
ridewiththewind said:
The reason I agreed about the new production cues is because they can be had anywhere...including the AZB Marketplace. The only potential benefit to AZB members is perhaps a lower price than is already out there, but honestly, they can only go so low before violating their agreement with whichever company they are offering....so there is no real advantage to keeping them....there are plenty of places to buy a new production cue. I am not targeting all production cues...just the new ones. Many of the older models have actually gained in value over the years, and there are faithful collectors to many brands.

Customs are not as readily available, can be almost impossible to get from certain makers, and the places they can be found are much, much more limited. Example: Brent most often posts up in the Cue Gallery cues he has completed for a customer. It can take a while to get a cue from him. The last cue he posted an actual FS ad for, was one leftover from the most recent cue show. Brent does not typically have available cues for sale, because he has developed a following. This was an opportunity for someone who may have wanted one of his cues, but maybe didn't want to wait, or it had the exact woods in it that they liked...to purchase one. It rarely happens, was really no big deal, and he contributes to AZB frequently. He's not abusing the system. There are others who do...some posting a half dozen or more cues a month. They are relying on the AZB W/FS as part of their business plan...which, IMHO, is a huge mistake.

Look, the solution is pretty simple actually. I can think of a few cue and case makers who have not relied on the W/FS to drive their sales. Instead, they post up photos of a cue or case they have just completed, often for a customer....in the Cue Gallery. A picture is worth a thousand words. Throw in a few testimonials....and sales are generated.


BTW...I believe you posted earlier in this or another thread about derogatory/negative comments being made concerning pricing/condition of an item for sale. It is already a rule that this type of behavior is not condoned in an active W/FS thread. If you see it happening, you need to report it.

Lisa
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Do you know how many threads I would need to report? I have read so many that its amazing..............
 
Guerra Cues said:
Well,
I just had a very nice chat with Jerry and here is the deal.
Azb is paying about 1k a day for their attorneys to deal with the lawsuits generated by the wfs section.
Who in their right mind would sue az due to a bad deal?
Think again, quite a few people are doing that. On top of that Jerry has to go to court due to these lawsuits.
Also disclaimers don't apply in a lot of states.
So, having said that, my thought is that people need to be responsible for their actions and be fully identified with ssn, address, the works. Azb can't be held responsible for a bad deal. I was shocked when Jerry told me that azb was being sued due to bad deals, that is insane.
The section is being destroyed by their own members and those guys need a wake up call.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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Sounds like "Club Member" should take on a new meaning then,,,,,,,I'm in!
 
New changes

Nobody likes change its a fact. If not now then later change is always closer then you think. There has been a monster created and now someone has been sent to chop off its head. It's money, money, money like always. I think these gents will come up with a plan to appease everyone and if not someone should get started on the new site. The sun will rise tomorrow and a-z will still be here it will not be the end of the world...............................
 
crabbcatjohn said:
As a long time internet seller and owner of 3 web site buisness's, i can tell you Paypal is the only real solution here along with a properly verified AZ registration of both the buyer and seller. That is the only way ebay stopped the rampant fraud. At one time it got real bad with millions upon millions being ripped...And sellers cried like babies when the mandatory paypal payments came along. Escrow is cool as long as AZ is going to provide the service provider along with some kind if insurance. Otherwise trusted sellers like hang em high could escrow for you... My guess is AZ is most likely getting sued over ghost sellers and or their feedback system giving a false sense of security as a buyer... Just guessing here...
PS, buy from a private individual or any buisness out of the country, send a money order or check and have it shipped through usps? guy sends you a broken or not as described item and you have zero recourse. The postal inspectors also will not investigate unless the buisness or person has over 500 complaints of fraud or even for non delivery, just ask your local postmaster..
These solutions might not stop all the fraud, but it would put a huge dent in it.
Its also useless to try to sue someone who is a career criminal. They have nothing to pay you back with even if you did find them... Just my 2 cents
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Yup, yup and yup. Before eBay went to the all electronic payments and the hiding of buyers' IDs I was getting somewhere in the average of 7 to 10 eMails a month asking where their goods were from people I had no transaction with. At that time eBay was relying on "we are just a venue" and getting their butts sued off over it. They changed their formula and started protecting their buyers and I haven't had a single deal were some buyer was scammed off of one of my auctions since then. Their customer retention is better and their market share grows.

Yeah that whole "I'm protected because I use USPS Money Orders" is an illusion. Scammers request them.

Thanks

Kevin
 
kvinbrwr said:
Yes you have preached escrow for a very long time. How has that been working out so far?

Thanks

Kevin
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And how does escrow stop anyone from filling suit and dragging AZB into it if they still feel that they are not happy with the deal?

Just imagine this situation: Everyone is using escrow and the guy getting all these cues disappears, or is incapacitated, or is compromised by one side or the other?

There is no perfect solution.

But the BEST way in my opinion is to create a space where vendors are vetted and the moderators are chosen from the users who are trustworthy. Then they will work hard to keep this a trusted environment as much as possible.
 
I too think its all a crock. I also dont expect any ont the higher ups in azb to publicly comment on an open case. So we won't get anything from them.

I don't mind change or even making the forum better. I just don't understand how THeSE changes are a fix.

1) how does a USED cue stop azb from being sueD where a NEW CUE gets them sued. Does t make sense.

2) escrow in no way stops azb from being sued. All it does is add one more name in the lawsuit.

3) who the person to determine a cuemaker from a flipper from a dealer ect ect. Nonsense.

4) disclaimers mean zero. Please stop bringing it up. If you think eBay can't be sued bc they have a simple disclaimer you are mistaken.

Bottom line is. Any rule or "solution" that is made people will find a way around. Like I said before. There isnt a cue In my like that has left my shop that I haven't hit a ball with. Therefore every cue is USED. I can take a cue with no chalk hit 2 balls and call it "USED 99.9999999% condition"

So basically you have 15 pages + of wasted space and repeated thoughts. Nothing will change except people will leave azb.

We already have only a handfull of people that really contribute here and they will be gone soon also.

Why are these same questions being dodged time after time. That's what I am wondering
 
Wow...Kev.

Ok. It looks like you're right and the best way to protect AZB *is* to ban the sales as Jerry said. :thumbup:

Way to go.
 
Mr. Wilson said:
Wow...Kev.

Ok. It looks like you're right and the best way to protect AZB *is* to ban the sales as Jerry said. :thumbup:

Way to go.
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Doesn't matter. Kev is already out of business by the rule about not posting eBay listings. That's the only way he ever sells a cue anyway.
 
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