TAR Podcast #8 - Shane - Fransisco - Shane Talks About His Aiming Method

[BarneyCalip]

Paralysis By Analysis

Reading all these aiming systems has got be me confused?

I feel that I need to buy two aiming system to get my game in order?
Geno’s system, because I am left eye dominant yet shoot with my right eye, I’m right handed.
I guess a CTE Shuffet or Shaft system Shane is my favorite player.

Hal Houle tried to teach me his system many moons ago but I was too busy to learn, OUCH?

I have one issue with aiming systems though?
How do they compensate with a Soft or Hard Hit and the consequences of English, Squirt, Throw, Cloth, Cushions, etc.

I am thinking that bottom line is that once you know where to aim, it still takes feel to make the ball.

Ray Martin said practice, practice practice.
I used to watch the great Egyptian 3 cushion player Diab practice the same shot over and over and over again.

Well JBKY’s bank secret’s is coming in today…….yahooooooo
Hopefully, I will just keep my stroke straight, thanks Bob Jewett, and bank to my hearts content, Barney

 

[Scott Lee]

champ2107...While Lou and I don't see "eye to eye" on some subjects, he has been around the game a long time, and is an accomplished player. Your hostile and incendiary tone, in calling him out, just makes you look bad (in all honesty you post like someone quite young). The facts are that aiming system/methods do work for some players (including pros like Shane), while others rely on "feel" and experience. I happen to agree that feel takes over for experienced players a certain percentage of the time (even ones like myself, who utilize aiming methods)...even under pressure. Even though Lou has made some incendiary comments himself at times, we should all be able to voice an opinion without being bashed or called names for it.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

Wow you write a nice post, very pretty! All i see is a arrogant guy that goes into those tourneys to try and boost his own ego so he go back to the billiard forums and brag that i played this guy and that guy and pretend he is a pool god in his on mind! your an average league player at best, you cant even make shots in 14-1?

 

[robsnotes4u]

champ2107...While Lou and I don't see "eye to eye" on some subjects, he has been around the game a long time, and is an accomplished player. Your hostile and incendiary tone, in calling him out, just makes you look bad (in all honesty you post like someone quite young). The facts are that aiming system/methods do work for some players (including pros like Shane), while others rely on "feel" and experience. I happen to agree that feel takes over for experienced players a certain percentage of the time (even ones like myself, who utilize aiming methods)...even under pressure. Even though Lou has made some incendiary comments himself at times, we should all be able to voice an opinion without being bashed or called names for it.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

Well put. Stuff like that really turns me away.

Sent from my DROID BIONIC using Tapatalk

 

[robsnotes4u]

Yes, the stick diameter can have an effect. To see this easily, consider two extreme/absurd, but informative, situations. Assume center-ball hits on the CB (no english) in both cases.

Cue #1 has a shaft diameter of 2 1/4" -- same as the CB (ignore the fact that such a wide shaft is illegal). With this shaft, aiming the left edge of the shaft at the right edge of the OB is the same as aiming the left edge of the CB at the right edge of the OB. And the result should be a maximum cut to the left of nearly 90 degrees.

Cue #2 has a shaft diameter of zero or nearly zero. But let's assume we can still see it and use it to propel the CB. With this shaft, aiming the left edge of the shaft at the right edge of the OB is the same as aiming the center of the shaft (or the right edge of the shaft) at the right edge of the OB. And the result is a half-ball aim, which should produce about a 30-degree cut to the left.

If our shaft was even wider than the CB, and we aimed edge of shaft to edge of OB, we'd miss the OB entirely.

This is a "silly" example, but it may help some people see that shaft diameter can matter. The difference between a 14mm shaft and a 10mm shaft, when aligning the edge to the OB's edge, is a difference of 2mm as to where the center of the shaft is pointing. And that can certainly affect the resulting cut angle.

When simple logic makes sense!

Sent from my DROID BIONIC using Tapatalk

 

[Scott Lee]

AtLarge...Just for clarification purposes, Hal taught "ball overlap" systems. S.A.M. utilizes stick aiming, similar to what Shane described. In addition, it should be noted that in our experience, most SOP shots fall under the 1/2 ball CTE periphery. 3/4 ball and 1/4 ball shots make up the majority of the rest. SAM has small (but accurate) adjustments built into it, to deal effectively with squirt and throw.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

Hi, Greyghost. What you probably heard of as "SAM" is a fractional-ball aiming method where the reference aims are a full-ball aim, a 3/4-ball aim, a half-ball aim, a 1/4-ball aim, and possibly one or two more for real thin cuts. This was taught by Hal Houle years ago, and I think it is still part of the Cue-Tech pool schools' teachings.

The subject of this thread -- Shane's and Fast Lenny's stick-aiming method -- uses different references (edges and center of stick to edge of OB).

The center-of-stick-to-edge-of-OB reference aim (half-ball aim for 30-degree cut) is common to both methods.

 

[JC]

Wow you write a nice post, very pretty! All i see is a arrogant guy that goes into those tourneys to try and boost his own ego so he go back to the billiard forums and brag that i played this guy and that guy and pretend he is a pool god in his on mind! your an average league player at best, you cant even make shots in 14-1?

Don't you have a dog you can kick? Seems like you woke up on the wrong side of the bed today.

JC

 

[champ2107]

Don't you have a dog you can kick? Seems like you woke up on the wrong side of the bed today.

JC

maybe, but its all good and under control

 

[champ2107]

champ2107...While Lou and I don't see "eye to eye" on some subjects, he has been around the game a long time, and is an accomplished player. Your hostile and incendiary tone, in calling him out, just makes you look bad (in all honesty you post like someone quite young). The facts are that aiming system/methods do work for some players (including pros like Shane), while others rely on "feel" and experience. I happen to agree that feel takes over for experienced players a certain percentage of the time (even ones like myself, who utilize aiming methods)...even under pressure. Even though Lou has made some incendiary comments himself at times, we should all be able to voice an opinion without being bashed or called names for it.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

I hear what your saying Scott and it makes a lot of sense but Lou went over and above just posting an opinion and all us know that. Constantly in threads trashing people,instructors,systems, starting his own anti aiming threads, starting a thread and purposely writing a review trashing a product someone spent a lot of time and money making it, just for the fun of it! We all know this yet very few stood up and said something! I may sound young too you but im not, I just have experience dealing with guys like Lou and im just making sure when Lou talks everyone knows to take it with a grain of salt and by the amount of green im seeing, it seems people agree with me.


Now like i have said in the past i couldn't care less if you use a system but don't tell me they don't work! you can say you couldn't get it to for yourself and be done with it. Just don't tell me something doesn't work when im making it work.


Now i have said what i have to say and will move to the positive now.

 

[AtLarge]

AtLarge...Just for clarification purposes, Hal taught "ball overlap" systems. S.A.M. utilizes stick aiming, similar to what Shane described. ...

Thanks, Scott. Hal taught lots of systems -- stick-aiming systems, ball-to-ball systems, center-to-edge system, small-ball system, shish-ke-bob system, and on and on (about four dozen systems, he said).

But I think I see the distinction you are making here, having to do with whether the shooter is focused on (1) aiming/aligning the stick with a point on or near the OB or (2) creating a certain amount of overlap or eclipsing of the OB by the CB.

S.A.M could actually be viewed either way, right, although you teach it as stick aiming.

 

[lfigueroa]

Ray Martin said practice, practice practice.

Barney, I have a lesson scheduled with Ray, down in Florida, next month -- keep an eye out for my report.

Lou Figueroa

 

[lfigueroa]

champ2107...While Lou and I don't see "eye to eye" on some subjects, he has been around the game a long time, and is an accomplished player. Your hostile and incendiary tone, in calling him out, just makes you look bad (in all honesty you post like someone quite young). The facts are that aiming system/methods do work for some players (including pros like Shane), while others rely on "feel" and experience. I happen to agree that feel takes over for experienced players a certain percentage of the time (even ones like myself, who utilize aiming methods)...even under pressure. Even though Lou has made some incendiary comments himself at times, we should all be able to voice an opinion without being bashed or called names for it.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

Thank you, Scott.

Lou Figueroa

 

[JoeyInCali]

Thank you, Scott.

Lou Figueroa

You'd go further if you learn HH system, CTE, Shadows, Reflections, Equal Parts, Double the Distance . Overlap and Clock systems.
Or you could fly to the Philippines and play 15-yr old kids some rotation for a year or so. They can't be that tough. They don't read books.:grin-square:
j/k
Here come the bullies.

 

[JB Cases]

Here's my understanding of why Shane was asked.

Fast Lenny sent the question to Justin to ask Shane during the TAR interview. Fast Lenny sent the question because (1) he (Fast Lenny) learned a ferrule/stick aiming method not long ago from an acquaintance or friend, (2) he heard that Shane used a ferrule/stick aiming method, and (3) he wanted to know whether the two methods were in fact the same.

I understand. My only point was that the overarching reason that pros are getting asked this is because of the general climate that exists now with fans around the world thinking more about aiming methods and wondering what the pros do and why they do it.

 

[JB Cases]

John,

Please note;...Not trying to violate our fragile "truce", but can you please name ONE top player, who does not revert to 'feel', when the chips are down ?..

All those "systems", go out the window, and they rely on "PURE FEEL" without hesitation... Get me just ONE, to say they don't...(including Darren Appleton)

Not trying to flame, just trying to be realistic...Aiming systems are fine...(for APA 3 players..)..Gives them a goal..

Since I have no way to be in a top player's head when the chips are down I can't know what is going on in there. You would know more about that than I ever will since you were a top player. I assume from your answer that you certainly rely on pure feel for the chips.

I can only relate my own recent chips experience and say that when the chips were down I relied on the aiming method to pull me through and it did giving me a great victory from the jaws of defeat.

And I can tell you that I had a nice conversation with Johnny Archer a few months ago when he was here in China and he related to me how he aims which is systematic and he said he does it on every shot. I didn't ask him if he meant every non-pressure shot and assumed he meant every shot.

He also said that aiming is one thing but bridge movement is the real problem. He said that even when you find the right line then it's easy to miss because of a shaky bridge and excess movement. He said people underestimate how solid the bridge has to be and that in his opinion this is a big reason why people miss even though they are on the right aiming line.

Frankly when I am at a big tournament I feel like a doofus asking pros about aiming or any other conversation related to how they play. I'd rather talk to them about things not related to their job. So I don't spend a lot of time interviewing them about technical stuff. But I have if the setting is right, like talking to Rodney while shooting pool with him or driving across country with David Matlock or taking a lesson from Jose Parica.

Given the opportunity I will ask them about your question and if I find one I will let you know.

 

[JB Cases]

You'd go further if you learn HH system, CTE, Shadows, Reflections, Equal Parts, Double the Distance . Overlap and Clock systems.
Or you could fly to the Philippines and play 15-yr old kids some rotation for a year or so. They can't be that tough. They don't read books.:grin-square:
j/k
Here come the bullies.

And yet on the Filipino pool forums they discuss aiming methods without fighting and animosity.

Just because people learn to play without "book" instruction doesn't mean that the instruction in the book is bad or worthless.

Seems to me that you are the one who is always being a bully here by trying to discredit anything you don't use.

 

[champ2107]

ok i got all the rage out of me lol and call a truce against Lou Figawhatever as long as he continues to show some respect like he has been lately and does not fall back to that arrogant $%?& he is known to be. I will agree to become civil again and positive member of this board :thumbup: all is good at my end.

 

[JB Cases]

Thanks, Banks. You know, some guys will never get any of that. I watched Gabe Owens at the DCC 14.1 Challenge one year and even with a dozen tries he only got out of the first rack, like once. Nor will they get the point of getting out from behind their keyboards and getting into a tournament. To them it's: big deal, entry fee, random draw. They don't understand the value.

Playing pool in a tournament is a unique experience, unlike playing pool at any other time. The conditions are different, your 
competitors are unknown, as are their skill levels and strategies. There are distractions, there's pressure, and you must adjust to all of this immediately. It's an interesting test of what you think you know. 


Ferinstance, you may think you know how to kick three rails. But under tournament conditions, it really is the acid test. Do you really know how to instantly calculate the path the cue ball must take, the right amount of spin, the right speed, and compensate for the new cushions, cloth, and balls? You either know how to do it, or you don't. Whether you do or not is out there for the whole world to see, and there's no hiding what you can and can't do. At an even more basic level, are the simple shots you think you should be able to make. During a tournament you may learn that there are a whole slew of shots you thought you knew, but can't execute on demand. I'm not talking about really tough shots, I'm talking about shots that, perhaps you thought you could make 10 out of 10, but actually can’t. Maybe going to play in a tournament is like getting dressed in the dark and then you go out into the bright sunlight and discover that you've got socks on that don't match. And so, playing in a tournament can alert you to things you should work on.

A tournament, because of the severity of the test, also let's you see what works and what does not. Tournaments provide you with a great "where the rubber meets the road" venue. Kinda like taking you little hot rod that you've lovingly been tinkering with for a spin on the Mercedes-Benz test track in Stuttgart. A tournament is also an opportunity to see a wide variety of approaches to the game. You get to see shots that you don't play regularly so you can then practice them and make them part of your personal arsenal. That's another great learning opportunity.

Lastly, I think playing in a tournament, imbues you with a sense of 
confidence you can't get any other way. Stepping into "the arena" and 
taking on all comers on a level playing field, so to speak, gives you a very accurate sense of where your game and you yourself as a competitor stand in the universe of pool players.

Of course, like I said, there are some guys that will never get any of that. But for the rest of youze, perhaps you’ll to jump into a tournament in the near future, or at least the next time you have the opportunity. It won't be easy, it might not be cheap, and it will take time, effort, and courage on your part. No, I'm not saying everyone should sign up for the next Open, (though there are some of you that should). I'm saying there are tournaments all over the place that, at some level or another, will let you experience both the thrill of victory and the agony of defeat. More significantly, it will give you a great way to learn so many different but related things. If you don't compete in a tournament now and again, and test yourself and your game, you're cheating yourself.

Lou Figueroa

Then again you assume wrongly that some of us haven't had tournament experience on an equal level as you have.

You and others like to discount the "experience" that an aiming system advocate brings to the table but you tout your own when you want to support your stance. Seems a bit unfair to me.

I mean the last big tournament we discussed on here, the US Open, had Stan Shuffett getting pretty deep in the field and you said everything possible to NOT assign ANY credit whatsoever to the aiming method he teaches with helping him to get there.

Randy Goetlicher is a national champion and has played in hundreds of tournaments with high caliber players.

Scott Lee has played in hundreds of events and been on the road all his life.

I have played Bustamante, Souquet, and plenty of other pros in events throughout my life (and lost to all of them) so does that mean you will allow my tournament experience as a qualifier for this discussion?

Somehow I doubt it.

 

[LAMas]

Since I have no way to be in a top player's head when the chips are down I can't know what is going on in there. You would know more about that than I ever will since you were a top player. I assume from your answer that you certainly rely on pure feel for the chips.

I can only relate my own recent chips experience and say that when the chips were down I relied on the aiming method to pull me through and it did giving me a great victory from the jaws of defeat.

And I can tell you that I had a nice conversation with Johnny Archer a few months ago when he was here in China and he related to me how he aims which is systematic and he said he does it on every shot. I didn't ask him if he meant every non-pressure shot and assumed he meant every shot.

He also said that aiming is one thing but bridge movement is the real problem. He said that even when you find the right line then it's easy to miss because of a shaky bridge and excess movement. He said people underestimate how solid the bridge has to be and that in his opinion this is a big reason why people miss even though they are on the right aiming line.

Frankly when I am at a big tournament I feel like a doofus asking pros about aiming or any other conservation related to how they play. I'd rather talk to them about things not related to their job. So I don't spend a lot of time interviewing them about technical stuff. But I have if the setting is right, like talking to Rodney while shooting pool with him or driving across country with David Matlock or taking a lesson from Jose Parica.

Given the opportunity I will ask them about your question and if I find one I will let you know.

Efren says that he uses a tight bridge as well...why many Philipinos use powder.

 

[LAMas]

I updated the aiming system in post #192 to cover every cut angle from 1 to 37 degrees.:thumbup:

 

[JB Cases]

Reading all these aiming systems has got be me confused?

I feel that I need to buy two aiming system to get my game in order?
Geno’s system, because I am left eye dominant yet shoot with my right eye, I’m right handed.
I guess a CTE Shuffet or Shaft system Shane is my favorite player.

Hal Houle tried to teach me his system many moons ago but I was too busy to learn, OUCH?

I have one issue with aiming systems though?
How do they compensate with a Soft or Hard Hit and the consequences of English, Squirt, Throw, Cloth, Cushions, etc.

I am thinking that bottom line is that once you know where to aim, it still takes feel to make the ball.

Ray Martin said practice, practice practice.
I used to watch the great Egyptian 3 cushion player Diab practice the same shot over and over and over again.

Well JBKY’s bank secret’s is coming in today…….yahooooooo
Hopefully, I will just keep my stroke straight, thanks Bob Jewett, and bank to my hearts content, Barney

when I teach you to aim using ghost ball all I am doing is giving you a guide to find the one single line that is right to pocket the ball. if you find that line then it's up to you to figure out any and all adjustments you need in order to pocket the ball and control where the cue ball goes.

all any aiming method does is help you to get on the shot line. actually shooting the ball is done by you.