It's The CB

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I have missed many shots by trying to get,and got, perfect position. You can't always get there from here.Sometimes you can get there, but won't make the shot if you do. I have also Not got perfect position after making a shot. I didn't hit it exactly like I thought for whatever reason. Still made the shot. If you miss position, you Might still have a shot. If you don't pocket the ball, you are done. Unless you tried to miss it.
I have even tried to miss a shot and play the leave, and the darn thing went in anyway! Screwed myself.
It happens on almost every shot that you don't get perfect position. You get to shoot again and maybe correct it on the next shot. You just have to recalculate a little.
If you miss the shot. You don't get to shoot again unless the other guy misses a shot.
This thread is about what came first, the chicken or the egg?
 
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Shaky1 said:
I have missed many shots by trying to get,and got, perfect position. You can't always get there from here.Sometimes you can get there, but won't make the shot if you do. I have also Not got perfect position after making a shot. I didn't hit it exactly like I thought for whatever reason. Still made the shot. If you miss position, you Might still have a shot. If you don't pocket the ball, you are done. Unless you tried to miss it.
I have even tried to miss a shot and play the leave, and the darn thing went in anyway! Screwed myself.
It happens on almost every shot that you don't get perfect position. You get to shoot again and maybe correct it on the next shot. You just have to recalculate a little.
If you miss the shot. You don't get to shoot again unless the other guy misses a shot.
This thread is about what came first, the chicken or the egg?
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Pointless, circular AZB argument #424,687.
 
JB Cases said:
Except on the snooker forums there are lots of threads about aiming.....

Anyone heard of BOB? That stands for Back of the Ball aiming.

Fractional Aiming? Steve Davis teaches that.

One snooker coach invented an elaborate Ghost Ball device to help with aiming.

Please stick to truth when making statements. Anyone can get on google and find snooker forums with discussions about aiming. Anyone can find plenty of snooker coaches who talk a lot about aiming.

Don't try to tell us that aiming is not talked about or taught in snooker.
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Talking of pointless, here's JB, inflating my sense of deja vu yet again.

Coming from the land of snooker, I can tell you quite categorically aiming systems are a big fat non issue. A few nerds on a website proves nothing, nor does a few pros seeking to cash in on the gullible. Go to snooker halls and you'll find zero talk about CTE, or whatever the latest gimmicky fad is called.

Aiming systems are for beginners and those that can't cue straight - even those that have hit a million balls, John.
 
dareads said:
Maybe it's just the math dork in my but I would love to see some statistics on what percentage of shots are missed due to bad position vs bad aim.
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Now, I'm no Isaac Newton, but I'd lay good odds on more shots being missed through bad aiming...:wink:
 
dareads said:
Even though I use no aiming system, I am not closed minded enough to not see the benefit. I can only equate it to being in "the zone". I recently had a night that I was in the zone. I was looking at each shot and didn't have to give the shot itself a second thought and I instantly went to the position for the next ball.

That's how I envision someone with accurate knowledge of an aiming system feeling as they line up to shoot. You know where you are going to hit the ball so then it's just a matter of finding the tangent line and deciding what you need to do from there.

We can all agree that both aiming and position are important. Which one is more important? That unfortunately, is opinion. I guess I lean more towards the side of aiming taking top priority. I'd rather make 90% of my shots and get perfect shape 50% of the time than make 50% of my shots and get perfect shape 90% of the time.

Maybe it's just the math dork in my but I would love to see some statistics on what percentage of shots are missed due to bad position vs bad aim.
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How about the extreme view?

No shots are missed because of poor position.

Plenty of shots are missed because of improper aim.

Plenty of shots are missed because of improper execution.

I saw Tony Ellin miss a two foot shot that 99% of the people on AZ would bet their house and their's dog's house that they would make 9 out of 10 times with the one miss being because of two flies having sex and landing on their nose right as they were about to hit the cueball.

That shot cost him $8000 and the points needed to get even more money for the year-end bonus on the Camel Tour.

What I mean is that theoretically any makeable shot is missed because of execution and not because of where the ball landed. Of course the degree of difficulty increases with awkward position but since we all miss so-called "easy" shots it's not just about getting good shape.

If anything then having a reliable aiming system helps when you do get out of line and are facing a tough shot. At least I find this to be true in my own game.
 
There are numerous elements too position play. Is there one that is the most important? I would vote for speed control and by a large margin.

Dave Nelson
 
One little itty bitty thing to add:

When the discussion about shot making vs. cue ball control comes up someone will always mention that so and so thinks it is all about cue ball control. This time around, it's Buddy and Keith that are mentioned. When people hear the pros say things like this, they begin to start down the road of trying to master their cue ball just like Keith and Buddy did right? Well, I think that's nonsense. What I think the pros are really saying is: They (the pros) have reached an expert level of pocketing ability and now the game is all about cue ball control. How do you think they got to that point? I'll answer this for you - by hitting difficult shots over and over and over again until they were no longer difficult shots.

I think the typical banger route (myself included) is to become a so-so ball pocketer and then start focusing mainly on the cue ball. Thinking you can overcome your pocketing deficiencies by perfect cue ball control. Very few can actually even come close to doing this. If you want to play with the big boys you have to be able to pocket the balls like them.
 
TheThaiger said:
Talking of pointless, here's JB, inflating my sense of deja vu yet again.

Coming from the land of snooker, I can tell you quite categorically aiming systems are a big fat non issue. A few nerds on a website proves nothing, nor does a few pros seeking to cash in on the gullible. Go to snooker halls and you'll find zero talk about CTE, or whatever the latest gimmicky fad is called.

Aiming systems are for beginners and those that can't cue straight - even those that have hit a million balls, John.
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What makes you think that if you go to the pool rooms in the USA that people are talking about aiming systems?

The fact is that you said no one in snooker talks about it. You're wrong. People talk about aiming methods in snooker, several of them, and a former world number one player who has zero need to "cash in" on the gullible and every reason to put out credible information teaches a fractional system of aiming.

First you said no one talks about it then you say well it's just a few nerds.....

Why don't you simply stay out of the discussions? If you don't like the topic and think it's worthless then stay out rather than to make false and misleading statements intended to be taken as fact.
 
"What makes you think that if you go to the pool rooms in the USA that people are talking about aiming systems?"

No, they are talking about football. Drives me nuts. It's part of what's wrong with the game.

Dave Neelson
 
BasementDweller said:
One little itty bitty thing to add:

When the discussion about shot making vs. cue ball control comes up someone will always mention that so and so thinks it is all about cue ball control. This time around, it's Buddy and Keith that are mentioned. When people hear the pros say things like this, they begin to start down the road of trying to master their cue ball just like Keith and Buddy did right? Well, I think that's nonsense. What I think the pros are really saying is: They (the pros) have reached an expert level of pocketing ability and now the game is all about cue ball control. How do you think they got to that point? I'll answer this for you - by hitting difficult shots over and over and over again until they were no longer difficult shots.

I think the typical banger route (myself included) is to become a so-so ball pocketer and then start focusing mainly on the cue ball. Thinking you can overcome your pocketing deficiencies by perfect cue ball control. Very few can actually even come close to doing this. If you want to play with the big boys you have to be able to pocket the balls like them.
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TAP TAP TAP

And to add to that which I haven't seen mentioned is that when asked what the single most important thing to practice is outside of the break Shane said shooing off the rail.

Nothing about position play. Shane feels that the most important thing you can do is to practice what he thinks are the hardest shots on the table.

Which is what I am going to do.
 
JB Cases said:
TAP TAP TAP

And to add to that which I haven't seen mentioned is that when asked what the single most important thing to practice is outside of the break Shane said shooing off the rail.

Nothing about position play. Shane feels that the most important thing you can do is to practice what he thinks are the hardest shots on the table.

Which is what I am going to do.
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Extraordinary.
 
might as well mention the rest of the pertinent section

(the paragraph where horror of horrors I dropped a couple of names talking to a friend of mine. Emphasis mine on the part basement dweller chose to ignore)

Johnny ol' buddy, I've been saying since I came here that it is all about the cue ball. A few people realize that, most know better than to try to explain what they mean to other people. One small consolation, one of the better players on this forum and least recognized told me that both Keith and Buddy told him the same thing. That puts you'uns and me'uns in pretty elite company!(Also raised my respect for Keith a few notches, I had thought he was just a wild child shot maker)



BasementDweller said:
One little itty bitty thing to add:

When the discussion about shot making vs. cue ball control comes up someone will always mention that so and so thinks it is all about cue ball control. This time around, it's Buddy and Keith that are mentioned. When people hear the pros say things like this, they begin to start down the road of trying to master their cue ball just like Keith and Buddy did right? Well, I think that's nonsense. What I think the pros are really saying is: They (the pros) have reached an expert level of pocketing ability and now the game is all about cue ball control. How do you think they got to that point? I'll answer this for you - by hitting difficult shots over and over and over again until they were no longer difficult shots.

I think the typical banger route (myself included) is to become a so-so ball pocketer and then start focusing mainly on the cue ball. Thinking you can overcome your pocketing deficiencies by perfect cue ball control. Very few can actually even come close to doing this. If you want to play with the big boys you have to be able to pocket the balls like them.
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Where do your pocketing deficiencies come from? Which of them do you think you will still have once you have largely mastered the much more difficult portion of the game, cue ball control?

When I was very young I was told that the way to catch a wild bird was to put salt on it's tail. True enough, once you can put salt on a bird's tail you can catch it. Pocketing balls and cue ball control is much the same. Once you have the needed skills for a high level of cue ball control it is impossible to not be able to pocket balls also.

Hu
 
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JB Cases said:
TAP TAP TAP

And to add to that which I haven't seen mentioned is that when asked what the single most important thing to practice is outside of the break Shane said shooing off the rail.

Nothing about position play. Shane feels that the most important thing you can do is to practice what he thinks are the hardest shots on the table.

Which is what I am going to do.
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That's funny because that was the question that I posted to Justin for the interview. That was the sort of response that I was expecting from him. Now I'm sure Shane pays attention to where the cue ball is going when he is working on these rail shots, but I think his main concern is just getting comfortable firing them in from on or near the rail.
 
Corny or not...Shape ain't sh*t without the shot (and you can quote me on that)! Period...end of discussion.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

BasementDweller said:
That's funny because that was the question that I posted to Justin for the interview. That was the sort of response that I was expecting from him. Now I'm sure Shane pays attention to where the cue ball is going when he is working on these rail shots, but I think his main concern is just getting comfortable firing them in from on or near the rail.
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ShootingArts said:
(the paragraph where horror of horrors I dropped a couple of names talking to a friend of mine. Emphasis mine on the part basement dweller chose to ignore)

Johnny ol' buddy, I've been saying since I came here that it is all about the cue ball. A few people realize that, most know better than to try to explain what they mean to other people. One small consolation, one of the better players on this forum and least recognized told me that both Keith and Buddy told him the same thing. That puts you'uns and me'uns in pretty elite company!(Also raised my respect for Keith a few notches, I had thought he was just a wild child shot maker)





Where do your pocketing deficiencies come from? Which of them do you think you will still have once you have largely mastered the much more difficult portion of the game, cue ball control?

When I was very young I was told that the way to catch a wild bird was to put salt on it's tail. True enough, once you can put salt on a bird's tail you can catch it. Pocketing balls and cue ball control is much the same. Once you have the needed skills for a high level of cue ball control it is impossible to not be able to pocket balls also.

Hu
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I really have not found this to be entirely true (the part in bold). This is the type of thinking that caused my game to get stuck in neutral for years. I could spend the next 5 years just playing 3 cushion and I would certainly get better at my cue ball control but I don't think I would get significantly better at pocketing balls.

Pocketing balls requires more precision in my book. Cue ball control requires more finesse. In 3 cushion for instance, there are a lot of shots where you can actually hit the object ball within quite a wide tolerance and still get the cue ball to travel around the same path and score. You don't get this much wiggle room when you are trying to pocket a ball.

I also think (I'm not as strongly convicted on this) that a player can learn a lot about cue ball control while just banging balls around if they play enough and pay attention to what the cue ball is doing. I don't think your ball pocketing abilities increase nearly as much just from playing.

The bottom line for me on this is - I play mainly 9 ball and I really don't think the patterns are all that hard in that game. My best return on investment for this game is to get better at pocketing the balls.

Hu - as far as your post was concerned I'm not sure what part of it you think I was ignoring. I think I understood the point of your post. The idea that the game is "all about the cue ball" is not a secret. 99 percent of the people on AZ believe it. I choose to swim against the current on this one and I've actually seen my game improve over the past year or so because of it.
 
A friend of mine came to our local 9 ball tournament this week. He is an apa 6. He can shoot but knows even the lowest level guys here would rob him. So after watching for awhile he looks at me and says how he cant believe the pros are spotting these other players the 5 and 6 ball. The guys getting the weight still run out, you can barely tell the difference! Its all about the cue ball I told him. Even a few inches can be the difference between a solid B player and a pro.
 
a "little more" detail

BasementDweller said:
I really have not found this to be entirely true (the part in bold). This is the type of thinking that caused my game to get stuck in neutral for years. I could spend the next 5 years just playing 3 cushion and I would certainly get better at my cue ball control but I don't think I would get significantly better at pocketing balls.

Pocketing balls requires more precision in my book. Cue ball control requires more finesse. In 3 cushion for instance, there are a lot of shots where you can actually hit the object ball within quite a wide tolerance and still get the cue ball to travel around the same path and score. You don't get this much wiggle room when you are trying to pocket a ball.

I also think (I'm not as strongly convicted on this) that a player can learn a lot about cue ball control while just banging balls around if they play enough and pay attention to what the cue ball is doing. I don't think your ball pocketing abilities increase nearly as much just from playing.

The bottom line for me on this is - I play mainly 9 ball and I really don't think the patterns are all that hard in that game. My best return on investment for this game is to get better at pocketing the balls.

Hu - as far as your post was concerned I'm not sure what part of it you think I was ignoring. I think I understood the point of your post. The idea that the game is "all about the cue ball" is not a secret. 99 percent of the people on AZ believe it. I choose to swim against the current on this one and I've actually seen my game improve over the past year or so because of it.
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I'll try to explain a little better about pinpoint position play. Most people literally don't understand what position play can be. They discover draw and side and wow this is really cool! They can make the cue ball take off in the general direction they want it to and stop in a fairly large area, sometimes. This doesn't take a great deal of skill and indeed if they try to substitute this for ball pocketing skills their game is going nowhere fast.

Obviously it varies from shot to shot but I think it would be fair to say that pinpoint shape is probably ten times more difficult overall than area shape. I was gambling quite profitably on the local level when I realized that pinpoint shape was within the bounds of possibility. I watched a match on TV, Mosconi against somebody tall and thin compared to him, maybe Crane or Lassiter I really only have a very vague memory of the other player. This was footage from before the Mosconi/Fats and Legends matches, probably from when Wide World of Sports showed pool about once a year. Anyway it opened my eyes, Willie was playing pinpoint position any time he needed to, maybe all the time. The thing is he was doing things with the cue ball I simply had not realized were possible before then. Nothing showy like some of Efren's great shots but on most shots he couldn't have had ball in hand after every shot and positioned the cue ball any better.

This was during the years I was putting in insane hours on the pool table and the next few years were focused very heavily on improving cue ball control, trying for pinpoint shape almost every shot. While it didn't turn me into Willie Mosconi my cue ball control soared simply because I was constantly trying to do things I had not been attempting before. Making the object ball became almost incidental but also very very easy on almost all shots. While I often used moderate draw and follow I rarely used more than a little bit of side because I usually could let angles do most of the work now.

Try for pinpoint shape on every shot for a few sessions and while you may not agree I think you will understand my position much better. I also believe that you will find this easier than three cushion in some ways but also harder in some. If you get caught by the bug you will find yourself playing tighter simpler patterns and also start nudging and bumping balls around more, making things easier for yourself or much tougher for your opponents.

I do strongly believe that almost anyone that seriously pursues precision position play for six months or longer will see huge jumps in their game, it just opens up so many more possibilities and the level of effort it requires sharpens your entire game.

My usual long painfully detailed post but I hope you understand a little better about what I mean when I stress owning the cue ball.

Hu
 
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