So what do you think the average innings are for an APA player?

[Cornerman]

Agreed; when I was an SL7 I thought below was a good estimation:

<=8 Innings - great game
9 - 12 Innings - very good game
13 - 16 Innings - average game
16 - 20 Innings - OK game
> 20 Innings - bad game

This might be too good for APA 9-ball at the 12 inning or less for an SL7, but I'd agree if it was 8-ball. But, I'm just hand-waving.

But, I can say that when I was playing APA 9-ball, I thought that if I went over 20 innings, I was having an awful game. Which was probably half the time.

 

[jrt30004]

The sandbagging generalization gets tiresome.... Perhaps I am naive, perhaps it's not rampant in my part of the world.... I don't see it here. And I watch everyone. We all know each other pretty well, after playing each other as often as we do. Seeing someone playing that far off would attract attention pretty quickly. Ah, but its easy to throw the sandbagging excuse out there when we lose, right?

As for the "number of balls run per inning" theory, I have played 7's and 8's often enough to know that doesn't fly. I love how everyone here online must all be run-out players. The better players here don't run the table every time, or even every other time. I see very few break and runs. Yes, we must all suck, that's gotta be the answer, right?

I look forward to loriders take on all of this. And some other actual APA players.

apa 6 in 8 ball and 6 (have been up to a 7) in 9 ball here. i can tell you this that here in atlanta, yes a 9 will run out on you more often than not. if they don't it's because they are smart enough to read the table, know they can't get out, pick thier spots and safe the hell out of you. our 8's and 7's play just below that. i'm a bit below that, hence the reason i couldn't hold on to the 7 rating.
i can tell you that balls per inning definately does play a part in your handicap. not getting into how i know that - that's a can of worms i can't open, but it does factor in. it's not everything but it's something. i can also tell you this, the sandbagging thing is rampant. i play on multiple teams and have been asked over the years to dump. i won't. and i won't ask players on my teams to do it. i will however put players in matches i know for a fact they can't win to keep thier handicap down. it's not outright cheating but i will admit it's using the rules in a way to gain an advantage that might not be kosher.
i have said over the my time on az that i don't know what apa pool is like in your area but here in atlanta it's brutal. there are a lot of very good players that maintain a presence on a team just to eligable for the national singles events and for our local singles events. those local singles events have decent payouts. taking third in our local 8 ball singles usually gets you about 300 bucks (that's what i got when i took 3rd) and $150 to 200 for 9 ball. win one round and you usually get your entry back, 3 or 4 rounds and your at $25 to $50. so win and you get more than that. the possibility for the better player to pick up easy cash in low entry tournaments and the ability to get a low cost trip out vegas for the singles events is incentive for them to play a few matches a session on an apa team.
in closing i'll say that if you don't belive the balls per inning theory because the 7's and 8's in your area don't run out. and you don't believe sandbagging is rampant. you haven't played enough apa players from around the country. ask the apa "4" from athens, ga. who crushed me when i was a "5" in the finals of the regional singles a few years ago. i easily should have been a 6 and he beat me 16-4 in the finals. so i admit i was under-handicapped. you tell me. was that 4 sandbaggin or just really lucky that day to be able to break and run two racks to my one.

 

[justadub]

.... i will however put players in matches i know for a fact they can't win to keep thier handicap down. it's not outright cheating but i will admit it's using the rules in a way to gain an advantage that might not be kosher.

I agree with this. Selecting tougher opponents makes sense in this instance, and I see no problem with it. After all, there is the risk that the lower skill level actually pulls it out, and enhances the chances of raising their skill level. So long as people are actually playing to win and not dumping, I see nothing wrong with this practice.


i have said over the my time on az that i don't know what apa pool is like in your area but here in atlanta it's brutal. there are a lot of very good players that maintain a presence on a team just to eligable for the national singles events and for our local singles events. those local singles events have decent payouts. taking third in our local 8 ball singles usually gets you about 300 bucks (that's what i got when i took 3rd) and $150 to 200 for 9 ball. win one round and you usually get your entry back, 3 or 4 rounds and your at $25 to $50. so win and you get more than that. the possibility for the better player to pick up easy cash in low entry tournaments and the ability to get a low cost trip out vegas for the singles events is incentive for them to play a few matches a session on an apa team.
in closing i'll say that if you don't belive the balls per inning theory because the 7's and 8's in your area don't run out. and you don't believe sandbagging is rampant. you haven't played enough apa players from around the country. ask the apa "4" from athens, ga. who crushed me when i was a "5" in the finals of the regional singles a few years ago. i easily should have been a 6 and he beat me 16-4 in the finals. so i admit i was under-handicapped. you tell me. was that 4 sandbaggin or just really lucky that day to be able to break and run two racks to my one.

I suppose ignorance really is bliss in my case. Because I truly believe that it isn't happening a lot here. I'm not so naive to think no one does it, but I also believe no one here has dramatically changed their skill level as a result. I truly believe no one in our league is more than one skill level off, and you know as well as I do that can happen as a quirk in the formula as much (or more) than any sandbagging.

And yes, I haven't played anywhere outside of my little hole-in-woods, so I have no perspective on what goes on elsewhere. I can imagine that where there are more people, there more opportunities for people taking advantage of the system. I grant you that. But I also wonder how many folks automatically allege sandbagging when one player has a bad night and another plays way over his head.

So far as run outs, again we probably don't compare to you folks in the big city. I just know that the best players here can and do run out some, but break and runs arent common. Actually, I see more 1 or 2 inning games in 8-ball than in 9-ball, at least around here.

Good stuff, a civil discussion.

 

[jrt30004]

I suppose ignorance really is bliss in my case. Because I truly believe that it isn't happening a lot here. I'm not so naive to think no one does it, but I also believe no one here has dramatically changed their skill level as a result. I truly believe no one in our league is more than one skill level off, and you know as well as I do that can happen as a quirk in the formula as much (or more) than any sandbagging.

And yes, I haven't played anywhere outside of my little hole-in-woods, so I have no perspective on what goes on elsewhere. I can imagine that where there are more people, there more opportunities for people taking advantage of the system. I grant you that. But I also wonder how many folks automatically allege sandbagging when one player has a bad night and another plays way over his head.

So far as run outs, again we probably don't compare to you folks in the big city. I just know that the best players here can and do run out some, but break and runs arent common. Actually, I see more 1 or 2 inning games in 8-ball than in 9-ball, at least around here.

Good stuff, a civil discussion.

absolutely civil discussion man. i hope you didn't think i was being condesending (sp?) in my remarks. i wsan't, i was absolutely saying that when there are more people there are more chances to cheat though. here in my area you can play 6 days a week in diffenernt divisions and areas in multiple rooms. where everyone won't always know how you play. you can have good and bad nights all the time in front of different people. and no one will know what's real.
and to your point of sandbagging being called on a guy having a good or bad night, yes it gets thrown out first when it maybe should be held back. i have lost 17-3 to a four and beat a 9 17-3 or 18-2 people could (and did) easily say i was sandbagging. problem is, i am friends and team mates with both guys. hopefully the 9 i am talking about will post in the thread (c'mom tropheus - where ya at whodat). they can tell you i wasn't baggin it and i know they weren't either. but like i said it's rampant around here. as evidenced by our qualifier and city cup and regional singles score sheets. they are cheked and adjusted often during our tournaments. 3's show up and have magical tournaments way too often and get bumped mid tourney.
lastly when it comes to run out pool. i know it sounds like b.s. but a lot of guys around here can and do. and we play mostly on 8 and 9 foot tables. i broke and ran my 1st rack in a match as a 5. my girlfriend is a 4 and hasn't done it in the league yet but has broke and ran twice in tournaments. i've had 4's do it to me in apa matches. it isn't the norm but it happens. and i'm not one of these guys on here that just has all these sats to pop off. i am crap to average at best. my high package is three. and it's in 8 ball. my high pack in 9 is three wins but it's two b-n-r's with a 9 on the snap in the middle. i have run 5 from the break in one pocket on shear luck one time and never come close to that again, ever and in stright pool i belive my high run to be a mere 13 balls (yep, can't even get to the next rack). yet here in atlanta we have more than a few players who i have watched put 5 and 7 packs together in 8 and or 9 ball. one of our local guys runs in the 100's in straight pool more often than i can run in the teens. i don't mention names 'cause i don't like to knock action for people, but if they tell they don't mind i'll post up names (i know at least one of them will read this and talk to me about when i see him- damned lurker. and you know who you are:thumbup

 

[lorider]

i dont think sandbagging is more prevalent in apa more than any other league. there are people everywhere that will try to circumvent rules or try to use rules to their advantage.

i know of a couple instances of sandbagging in my area and can say without a doubt if you are caught by my lo you are banned from his league for life.

1 guy here went to vegas last year and was disqualified for sandbagging, when he got back he was banned from the league.

another guy was a teamate of mine. one night he was playing very poorly, i asked him what was up. he made the mistake of telling me he was holding back because he did not want to be raised before the top gun tournament.

i kicked him off the team and reported him to the lo who subsequently banned him.

yea i have had my very good nights and very bad nights also. i have lost to a 2 and beat an 8. that does not mean i was sandbagging when i lost to a 2 or the 8 was sandbagging when he lost , that stuff happens from time to time.thats why apa does not count your losses , they just count your best scores win or lose.

if lo's and tournament directors do their job properly you will not have a guy playing like a 5 all year and play like a 7 in regionals or nationals without getting dq'd and banned.

 

[Ron Moore]

I am an APA 7/7 in a small, rural league averaging about 1.7 innings in 8 ball and 20 innings in 9 ball. My win% is 55-60 so I guess the handicap is working about right. My best run this session is 26 points. I suspect I would be a 6, maybe even a 5 in a more competitive league though.

 

[scratchs]

apa 6 in 8 ball and 6 (have been up to a 7) in 9 ball here. i can tell you this that here in atlanta, yes a 9 will run out on you more often than not. if they don't it's because they are smart enough to read the table, know they can't get out, pick thier spots and safe the hell out of you. our 8's and 7's play just below that. i'm a bit below that, hence the reason i couldn't hold on to the 7 rating.
i can tell you that balls per inning definately does play a part in your handicap. not getting into how i know that - that's a can of worms i can't open, but it does factor in. it's not everything but it's something. i can also tell you this, the sandbagging thing is rampant. i play on multiple teams and have been asked over the years to dump. i won't. and i won't ask players on my teams to do it. i will however put players in matches i know for a fact they can't win to keep thier handicap down. it's not outright cheating but i will admit it's using the rules in a way to gain an advantage that might not be kosher.
i have said over the my time on az that i don't know what apa pool is like in your area but here in atlanta it's brutal. there are a lot of very good players that maintain a presence on a team just to eligable for the national singles events and for our local singles events. those local singles events have decent payouts. taking third in our local 8 ball singles usually gets you about 300 buc
ks (that's what i got when i took 3rd) and $150 to 200 for 9 ball. win one round and you usually get your entry back, 3 or 4 rounds and your at $25 to $50. so win and you get more than that. the possibility for the better player to pick up easy cash in low entry tournaments and the ability to get a low cost trip out vegas for the singles events is incentive for them to play a few matches a session on an apa team.
in closing i'll say that if you don't belive the balls per inning theory because the 7's and 8's in your area don't run out. and you don't believe sandbagging is rampant. you haven't played enough apa players from around the country. ask the apa "4" from athens, ga. who crushed me when i was a "5" in the finals of the regional singles a few years ago. i easily should have been a 6 and he beat me 16-4 in the finals. so i admit i was under-handicapped. you tell me. was that 4 sandbaggin or just really lucky that day to be able to break and run two racks to my one.

I understand what your saying,I've seen plenty of sandbagging.
I'm under rated myself,I know threes that have 1700 matchs played..explain that one..thats in both eight an nine..I can brake an run a couple tables in a row in both when I'm shooting really well.I'm a four in eight,but have been a five for years before I was dropped..doesn't bother me..an I'm a five in nine..ran a three pack on a friend a couple weeks ago..to brake an run once every few tables isn't unheard of for me in either.
The thing is..sandbagging does go on..if I go up,I go up.
I try to stay at a lower level for my team..I just play the hard shots..which keeps me at 50%, but I also get out in roughly 16 innings..yesturday eightball was three streight in ten inning.in nine I scored a 15-5 in 12 innings..an thats my average in nine for innings .not the score...but there are those who slap the ball around an know what there doing there as well as they keep track of their ball count to inning,plus call all their time outs on,stuip shots that are so easy to make.I play mainly because I enjoy spending time with others on the team,as well as some on other teams..I like my LO,so its kinda like having her on my pay roll...lol.
Thats my spill.

 

[scratchs]

I just want to make myself real clear here..I'm not knocking leagues.I enjoy my league night..my goal this year...is to just go all out an see if I can be a six in both nine an eight by sessions end..then become a seven in eight by christmas,believe I've a good shot at it..cheers

 

[justadub]

I just want to make myself real clear here..I'm not knocking leagues.I enjoy my league night..my goal this year...is to just go all out an see if I can be a six in both nine an eight by sessions end..then become a seven in eight by christmas,believe I've a good shot at it..cheers

I have to smile a little. I'm a 5 in 8-ball, and a 4 in 9-ball. I, too, want to get to be a 6 before the end of the year.

Then I re-read your previous post, about running tables occasionally, and running a 3-pack once.

It's damned funny how a 4 or 5 in one area can be so much better than a 4 or 5 in a different area. I mean that sincerely, it's really funny. I can barely spell 3-pack, much less worry about actually shooting one. (I have a better chance doing a break-and-run in 8-ball than in 9-ball, which also strikes me as funny. Damned funny game, this pool.... )

 

[scratchs]

I have to smile a little. I'm a 5 in 8-ball, and a 4 in 9-ball. I, too, want to get to be a 6 before the end of the year.

Then I re-read your previous post, about running tables occasionally, and running a 3-pack once.

It's damned funny how a 4 or 5 in one area can be so much better than a 4 or 5 in a different area. I mean that sincerely, it's really funny. I can barely spell 3-pack, much less worry about actually shooting one. (I have a better chance doing a break-and-run in 8-ball than in 9-ball, which also strikes me as funny. Damned funny game, this pool.... )

I have a 8'fter at home...an the place I mainly play out of,have ten 7'fters...I've played leagues four night a week for four,five years.the last five years I've only played on sunday afternoons.
I practice or play a min. of 20 hours a week. I get a couple calls a week from friends wanting to know if I have time for a few sets..an one of them is close to being a master player,still waiting for another close friend to move back home,so I can practice with him as well..real strong player as well.
Yes...pool is funny...an the more you get involved the smaller the world becomes.I don't know if I'll make seven,but moving to a six is very possible..I'm locked as a five because of nationals,other wise when I hurt myself which caused me some nerve damage,I most likely would have dropped there as well..its been a hard road coming back..I still have trouble getting down over my shot..been thinking about calling Geno an listening to what he has to say with aiming up on the shot line with my blind eyes...I'm 53...lol
Man what a spill.

 

[justadub]

I have a 8'fter at home...an the place I mainly play out of,have ten 7'fters...I've played leagues four night a week for four,five years.the last five years I've only played on sunday afternoons.
I practice or play a min. of 20 hours a week. I get a couple calls a week from friends wanting to know if I have time for a few sets..an one of them is close to being a master player,still waiting for another close friend to move back home,so I can practice with him as well..real strong player as well.
Yes...pool is funny...an the more you get involved the smaller the world becomes.I don't know if I'll make seven,but moving to a six is very possible..I'm locked as a five because of nationals,other wise when I hurt myself which caused me some nerve damage,I most likely would have dropped there as well..its been a hard road coming back..I still have trouble getting down over my shot..been thinking about calling Geno an listening to what he has to say with aiming up on the shot line with my blind eyes...I'm 53...lol
Man what a spill.

Good stuff. I wanna call geno some time, when I can give it the proper time, as well. (I'm 48, only started this foolishness a little over 2 years ago.)

We only play on 9-footers, until we go to states, where it's played on the only 7-footers in the state, 2 hours away from here. Just a little culture change....

Good luck!

 

[lorider]

played in my tuesday night 8 ball league tonight. here is the inning results.

our 3vs their 3. we won 2-1 in 11 innings

our 4vs their 4. we won 3-2 in 16 innings

our 2 vs their 3. we lost 3-0 in 13 innings

our 5 vs their 5. we won 4-0 in 16 innings thats me

our 6 vs their 4. we won 5-1 in 12 innings

 

[lorider]

i did not break it down to innings per rack.

our 3 played 3 racks in 11 innings= 3.6 innings per rack

our 4 played 5 racks in 16 innings= 3.2 innings per rack

their 3 played 3 racks in 13 innings= 4.3 innings per rack

our 5 played 4 racks in 16 innings= 4 innings per rack . thats me

our 6 played 6 racks in 12 innings= 2 innings per rack including 1 break and run.

i got to do something about our 3 and 4 playing less innings per rack than i did

 

[cmb]

13 - 15 on average

13 - 15 on average per skill level

 

[doitforthegame]

i did not break it down to innings per rack.

our 3 played 3 racks in 11 innings= 3.6 innings per rack

our 4 played 5 racks in 16 innings= 3.2 innings per rack

their 3 played 3 racks in 13 innings= 4.3 innings per rack

our 5 played 4 racks in 16 innings= 4 innings per rack . thats me

our 6 played 6 racks in 12 innings= 2 innings per rack including 1 break and run.

i got to do something about our 3 and 4 playing less innings per rack than i did

Not less innings....it is average balls. The three needed 25 to win. He got that in 11 innings, so it is 2.27 balls an inning (pretty fair I'd say); the next match the 4 averaged 1.93 balls; the 5 averaged 2.38; the 6 averaged 3.8.

See that is what I would consider very strong in my area. At least one thing, you are not there all night! those matches must end quick.

Bob

 

[doitforthegame]

13 - 15 on average per skill level

Are you saying that no matter what skill level you are you should finish in 13-15 innings? Like a 3 should take 13-15 innings to reach 25. And a 7 should take 13-15 to reach 55?

Hmmm....that seems to have some credibility in my mind. BUT....I'm a 7 and I average higher than that to get my 55.

Bob

 

[poolplayer2093]

Curious. How many innings do you think an APA player needs to hit their points in 9 Ball?

Bob

haven't seen too many good players in the apa. i gotta figure 5-7 on average. never seen anyone in the apa break and run a rack! but they all make a point to let me know i should move out of the way so they can shoot their ball into the rail when they play next to the table i'm gambling on

 

[rburgoyne]

My team plays on 9' tables and normal ball count is between 20-25 for most ranks in 9 Ball. Sometimes a little less, and with the lower ranks sometimes it can go over 30, and I have seen over 40 once or twice. I'm a 7 and normally get right around 20 or so innings. Last night though I got my first Skunk patch playing a 6, winning 55 to 6 in 17 innings w/ 5 total safeties. :thumbup:

 

[OneIron]

The sandbagging generalization gets tiresome.... Perhaps I am naive, perhaps it's not rampant in my part of the world.... I don't see it here. And I watch everyone. We all know each other pretty well, after playing each other as often as we do. Seeing someone playing that far off would attract attention pretty quickly. Ah, but its easy to throw the sandbagging excuse out there when we lose, right?

As for the "number of balls run per inning" theory, I have played 7's and 8's often enough to know that doesn't fly. I love how everyone here online must all be run-out players. The better players here don't run the table every time, or even every other time. I see very few break and runs. Yes, we must all suck, that's gotta be the answer, right?

I look forward to loriders take on all of this. And some other actual APA players.

I didn't mean to imply that most APA players sandbag but you are naive if you think it doesn't occur. My point is that running up innings is the easiest way for an experienced player to sandbag. Given that, inning count is probably the least reliable indicator of skill level.

BTW, I'm a skill level 8 in 9 ball and a 7 in 8 ball. I played many years in the APA. I can honestly say I've never sandbagged and never asked any of my players to sandbag. I consider it cheating. But I have enough experience to know when someone is running up innings. When I kept score, I always marked a safety on any shot that looked questionable. Unfortunately, not many scorekeepers do this. You generally end up with the least experienced players keeping score and they're chatting and drinking. For the experienced sandbagger, it's like shooting fish in a barrel.

The last couple of sessions I played 9 ball, I kept track of average balls pocketed per rack in games won. In my area, it tracked pretty closely with what a player's handicap should be. I average 7-8 balls per rack in the racks that I won.

I'm pretty sure that the APA counts innings towards the handicap. I just don't think that it's a reliable indicator. Just IMHO...

 

[OneIron]

haven't seen too many good players in the apa. i gotta figure 5-7 on average. never seen anyone in the apa break and run a rack! but they all make a point to let me know i should move out of the way so they can shoot their ball into the rail when they play next to the table i'm gambling on

An SL9 player in my area recently beat a SL6 75 to 3. Same player qualified for the US Amateur 2 years in a row. Many of our players can string together multiple racks of 9 ball.

Problem is that APA skill levels are based on the local competition so an SL8 in one area may be an SL5 in another.