A long comment on "aiming systems" ...
- Thread starter Grilled Cheese
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Here's a great article by Bob Jewett: Into Focus
In the article he admits ALL aiming systems have flaws but learning (practice, practice, practice) a system can help you focus on other aspects of your shot. He also lists the other aspects of the shot you could be focusing on!
It doesn't matter what system you choose, they all have flaws and they all can work. However NONE of them are shortcuts to learning or practice. If there was a system that is easiest to learn...that would be the ghostball system. If you are just beginning your journey in this game, that would be a good place to start!
There are a lot of FREE resources on the Internet that you could use to learn this game. Dr Dave and Bob Jewett have written MANY articles on aiming. Use them to find a system that will work for you! If you want to get really good at this game you'll need to invest the time to practice...that will bring many more rewards than the next new "shortcut"!
In the article he admits ALL aiming systems have flaws but learning (practice, practice, practice) a system can help you focus on other aspects of your shot. He also lists the other aspects of the shot you could be focusing on!
It doesn't matter what system you choose, they all have flaws and they all can work. However NONE of them are shortcuts to learning or practice. If there was a system that is easiest to learn...that would be the ghostball system. If you are just beginning your journey in this game, that would be a good place to start!
There are a lot of FREE resources on the Internet that you could use to learn this game. Dr Dave and Bob Jewett have written MANY articles on aiming. Use them to find a system that will work for you! If you want to get really good at this game you'll need to invest the time to practice...that will bring many more rewards than the next new "shortcut"!
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Where do these guys get this stuff?
Unfortunately, I am afraid you have to be classified as a naysayer. ;-)
The reason is you are exhibiting the same tendencies that the naysayers exhibit. Like Lou, who likes to ridicule and make all kinds of stupid statements about aiming system users, you are suggesting that the yeasayers believe that everyone should use only one aiming system because it is the only one that will work for everyone.
Your suggesting that a lot of people simply do not get it is just like the other things I mentioned earlier that are SIMPLY NOT TRUE.
I don't know of A SINGLE PERSON who believes that one aiming system will work for everyone.
Unfortunately, I am afraid you have to be classified as a naysayer. ;-)
The reason is you are exhibiting the same tendencies that the naysayers exhibit. Like Lou, who likes to ridicule and make all kinds of stupid statements about aiming system users, you are suggesting that the yeasayers believe that everyone should use only one aiming system because it is the only one that will work for everyone.
Your suggesting that a lot of people simply do not get it is just like the other things I mentioned earlier that are SIMPLY NOT TRUE.
I don't know of A SINGLE PERSON who believes that one aiming system will work for everyone.
You first. What do you expect to see? No particular method makes a player into any particular skill level.
But for the sake of argument let's say I beat the ghost what would that prove to you? What would you say then?
You and others already dismiss the fact that some professional players are out about their use of aiming systems.
So what does it matter how good I am or am not? The question was can anyone who advocates aiming systems say that they are better because of them.
I can and I am.
On that note.
How many times has someone bought a brand new custom cue that they really really wanted, and upon first hitting balls with it, they stroke better, play better position, pocket more balls, and felt confident as if the new cue has unlocked some hidden potential in their game.
They feel as if they are playing better as a result, and in a lot of cases, they are.
And of course, this disappears a couple of days later, when they go right back to miscuing on their draw shots, playing sub par position, and missing shots in general.
Everyone who has played pool for a long time, has probably experienced this, or witnessed this phenomenon.
I'm not going to get into the whole aiming argument cause i know people who successfully use aiming systems, and people who have had zero success with aiming systems.
But the placebo effect is very real. Especially for people that have certain expectations.
You're right of course John. Your beating the ghost or not beating the ghost won't reveal anything. If you beat the ghost, the naysayers will probably say that you weren't using CTE/Pro1 or that they couldn't tell if you were using it or not and besides that it didn't prove anything.
I am a better player because of aiming systems, of that there is no doubt.
This would be a GREAT subject for a discussion and not just because I believe in this as well but because I also believe that the placebo effect is more than what meets the probing mind.
I believe that people learn other equally important things when they learn new aiming systems or anything for that matter. I won't go into any more discussion here just in case you start a new thread about this suject. I will look for it if you call it The Placebo Effect and try to put my $.02.
Guess you didn't watch it all. The point is to work smarter not harder.
If you want to have a shot making contest then I will give you odds on the money. I am 44 and have been playing "seriously" for 25 years. You said you have been playing for 56 years. So with double the amount of TIME in you should be able to beat me easily.
I said if you have enough time coupled with dedication and desire you don't need any instruction whatsoever. Lock yourself into a basement with a pool table, a decent cue, plenty of tips, a gross of chalk and when you emerge a few years later you ought to be able to pocket any ball from anywhere. What else would you have to but to learn every possible way to hit the cue ball?
But if you have ever read a book, taken a lesson or watched an instructional video then you have gotten a shortcut. That's what knowledge is. It's a shortcut on the way to acquiring skill.
Of course you still have to practice what you have been taught.
But if I take two beginners and turn them loose then the one who gets a little basic instruction is going to get better faster. You can run that experiement a hundred times over and the results will be that at least 90 times out a hundred the beginner who got instruction will be the better player after a month of practice. Forget betting the farm, you can bet the entire city on that one.
Let's do kick shots.
One rail, two rails, three rails.
We each get 50 attempts to make all ten kicks.
You don't get any instruction whatsoever, you are working on trial and error.
I get Tom Rossman's little book of kicking systems.
Want to bet on which of us makes all ten kick shots in the least amount of attempts?
Same thing goes with bank shots.
I get Freddy's book, you get nothing.
Want to bet on who makes the ten banks in the least amount of attempts?
Let's play some one pocket for a HUGE amount of money. Say $50,000
Neither of knows any strategy. Both of us are decent 9 ball players.
You get ZERO help for the month before we play.
I get to read Winning One Pocket and Billy incardona's videos and get to watch as much one hole on You Tube as I want to.
Which of us is going to win the One Pocket match? I'd bet that even if I put in less hours than you did in that month I would emerge the better one pocket player because I would be practicing what I learned wheras you would be feeling around in the dark.
So, you are certainly entitled to your opinion. I have the opinion that Kelly Fisher is one of the best players to ever hold a cue. But I don't believe in it enough to bet my house on her playing even with the top men players. Are you willing to bet your house on your opinion?
When it comes to instruction and certain methods being shortcuts I will bet everything I own all day every day.
As posted many times, I learned CTE/Pro1 last year after playing for 15 years my own self-taught way. I always shot by just envisioning how thick I needed to hit the ball to make it go in the pocket. Not really ghost ball, since I had a hard time envisioning an imaginary object, more of a 3d visualization of the balls colliding. Maybe that's similar to the back of the ball type stuff of snooker.
I actually put the time into CTE in order to learn it, and will admit that the first time I played with the 90/90 and CTE concepts 2 years ago I didn't get it. It worked for some shots, not others, and not consistently. Like many of the people who are bashing this and other systems, I realize I didn't put the time in to full understand it or practice enough with it to "get it".
I was already a solid player, I don't feel that CTE enhanced my preshot routine or any of the other intangible positives that at least both sides can agree upon. Frankly, I liked my old routine better as I used to walk into the shot down the line and I can't really do that anymore and I also had to slow down a bit, especially at first. However, I learned to adapt, and what it did do, for me at least, was increase my ball pocketing percentage, period. Especially on certain shots that I historically didn't "see" very well, on longer shots, etc. I no longer feel like I'm guessing, I feel very locked in, and the results continue to reinforce my confidence and trust in my execution of the system.
Will it on it's own make you a better player? No, even if you see an increase in ball pocketing without good fundamentals and knowledge and execution of the game it won't help. But I think it can help people who struggle with aiming, or visualization, or committing to a routine, and it could shorten the time that it takes for a beginner to learn the correct angles and how to "see" the shots.
Should everyone be using it? Will we all be world beaters? No, of course not. I'm sure there are non-system players that can pot the hell out of the balls and win any challenge that's presented, as well as non-system players that can beat the shot more reliably than others. As mentioned, I practice far more on fundamentals, position routes, and decision making than aiming. It's just a tool, and an interesting one at that, and I enjoy the fact that it's being discussed and not some secretive thing, even if it does being out a bunch of conflict in the process. There is something to it, whether you agree with that or not is fine. Perhaps it's all just an elaborate jedi mind trick, if so that's great.
I agree with a lot of the points both sides have made, logic and truth should prevail over opinions and name calling. And while I enjoy continuing learning about CTE and other aspects of the game, there is no magic pill and no substitute for good old fashioned hard work at the table.
Scott
I actually put the time into CTE in order to learn it, and will admit that the first time I played with the 90/90 and CTE concepts 2 years ago I didn't get it. It worked for some shots, not others, and not consistently. Like many of the people who are bashing this and other systems, I realize I didn't put the time in to full understand it or practice enough with it to "get it".
I was already a solid player, I don't feel that CTE enhanced my preshot routine or any of the other intangible positives that at least both sides can agree upon. Frankly, I liked my old routine better as I used to walk into the shot down the line and I can't really do that anymore and I also had to slow down a bit, especially at first. However, I learned to adapt, and what it did do, for me at least, was increase my ball pocketing percentage, period. Especially on certain shots that I historically didn't "see" very well, on longer shots, etc. I no longer feel like I'm guessing, I feel very locked in, and the results continue to reinforce my confidence and trust in my execution of the system.
Will it on it's own make you a better player? No, even if you see an increase in ball pocketing without good fundamentals and knowledge and execution of the game it won't help. But I think it can help people who struggle with aiming, or visualization, or committing to a routine, and it could shorten the time that it takes for a beginner to learn the correct angles and how to "see" the shots.
Should everyone be using it? Will we all be world beaters? No, of course not. I'm sure there are non-system players that can pot the hell out of the balls and win any challenge that's presented, as well as non-system players that can beat the shot more reliably than others. As mentioned, I practice far more on fundamentals, position routes, and decision making than aiming. It's just a tool, and an interesting one at that, and I enjoy the fact that it's being discussed and not some secretive thing, even if it does being out a bunch of conflict in the process. There is something to it, whether you agree with that or not is fine. Perhaps it's all just an elaborate jedi mind trick, if so that's great.
I agree with a lot of the points both sides have made, logic and truth should prevail over opinions and name calling. And while I enjoy continuing learning about CTE and other aspects of the game, there is no magic pill and no substitute for good old fashioned hard work at the table.
Scott
JC
Coos Cues
People were playing pool at unbelievable levels long before the current crop of aiming system gurus were even born. A Bunch of dinosaurs banging balls around and stealing money I guess.
The big innovation since that time doesn't involve the game of pool, it's the cheap DVD burner.
To this day NO ONE on the forum has beaten Dave Segal's score on Colin Colenso's pocketing test.
I will bet $100 that from now to the end of February no person who is NOT a confirmed system proponent on this forum will post a video of themselves beating Dave's score.
Simple proposition. Open to all non-professionals on the forum. Put the money where the mouth is. You have snooker fundamentals? Ok should be easy to beat Dave's score. You have 40 years of time in? Should be easy to beat Dave's score.
I will send you $100 free and clear via PayPal if you post a video beating Dave's score.
No need to talk about it. Show it.
I will bet $100 that from now to the end of February no person who is NOT a confirmed system proponent on this forum will post a video of themselves beating Dave's score.
Simple proposition. Open to all non-professionals on the forum. Put the money where the mouth is. You have snooker fundamentals? Ok should be easy to beat Dave's score. You have 40 years of time in? Should be easy to beat Dave's score.
I will send you $100 free and clear via PayPal if you post a video beating Dave's score.
No need to talk about it. Show it.
Yep they were. So what?
At one time there were 10,000 pool rooms in NYC alone. Now there might not be 20.
But guess what, if you go back to the literature on pool a hundred years ago you will find debate on how to play. Even back then the people talking pool were not in agreement what the best way to sight shots was.
You can find plenty to read on this by searching Google books.
What was his score?
TheThaiger
Banned
I am merely curious. I have played many players that cue like you, thinking 'this is going to be easy', only for them to run rack after rack. I have no reason to think you'll be any different.
I don't have access to recording equipment, and am camera shy anyway. You do and you're not. But it would prove you can play and your aiming system works on all variety of shot, not just the ones you show to us in your vids.
If I beat my score and post a video, will you send me a case? I think 16/17 was the score, on a 9'er with 4.5 pockets.
I think people can beat that score, fyi. If you review Colin's original thread, you'll see I made my video very shortly after he posted the challenge. If you gave me (or anyone else) a 30 day window to beat the score I posted within a day, you can't win that proposition.
Thanks for the vote of confidence though
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Are you coming to SBE? If so then I will bring you a case. The price? One solid hour of pool just you and me.
Deal?